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RT SmoothSpyder Belt Tensioner
- Thread starter cedarmeadow
- Start date
I'm new to spyders, I just bought two RT Limited and have been reading about your product. While I was at Louis Powersports in Greenville Tx yesterday I mentioned your product to the service manager and he informed me it would void the warranty and that they put too much tension on the belt which leads to tranny failures. Like I said I'm a newb to spyders so enlighten me if you can?
Thanks!
Kerry
capt.jim
Member
In my mind I always thought BRP was kind of happy I was around to clean up some of their loose ends as far as customers complaining about the vibration, at least there was a solution available and not on their dime. In addition it would give them an easy out to deny the warranty if there was a failure.
BRP has over 5000 dealerships in 80 countries, of which I have sold to dealers and customers alike in 35 countries. Not once has anyone contacted me with any issues of a problem related to the tensioners.
I would be surprised that BRP would suddenly send out a bulletin to all their dealers when there have been no reports of any failures, I am sure we would have heard of something along the way on Spyderlovers and I think I would be the first to hear about.
I think dealers would be calling me right and left wanting to know what is going on and how to return their inventory. If they have then I will eat my words.
Almost every modern car engine is equipped with a toothless single flat serpentine belt system powered from the crankshaft and running the alternator, AC, water pump, pollution control, etc. They all use a very heavy duty belt tensioner exerting extreme pressure with all kinds of backbends on the belt. You typically need to use a 1/2" breaker bar to relieve the pressure enough to change a belt, none of these bearings are failing. Usually the first thing to go is the tensioner bearing itself and they typically go over 100,000 miles before getting noisy.
Does the Rotax engine design have such weak output shaft bearings that 12 Lbs of spring loaded tension is going to destroy them, that seems ridiculous to me. These are rugged engines with slick shifting, trouble free gearboxes. Seals do fail occasionally on anything, but generally there is no reason for a seal to fail or start leaking unless there is damage or side to side movement of the shaft due to sloppy or worn bearings.
The main purpose of a tensioner on anything is to stop slippage or vibration without having to require extreme pressure on the other components.
This is not rocket science here, tensioners have been around forever and are on everything. Google it and read up.
A tensioner will increase belt life also. Not that the Gates belt manufactured for BRP has any problems, they are quite stout and last a long time. When a belt is vibrating to where you can barely see it, common sense should tell one this can't be good for anything.
If you can feel the vibration through the whole bike, imagine what your front sprocket , output shaft and rear bearing assembly are feeling, that is what's taking the brunt of the vibration first, how can this be good?
My 13 ST arrived with 770N, under-tensioned by BRP Spec’s of 900-1200N. It had the same vibration as most at 72-78 MPH. The tensioner at 12 Lbs. alleviated this without having to raise the fixed static tension. I I also noticed some vibration that would start about 50 down to 38MPH while slowly decelerating. Remembering a video that BRP sent to the dealers showing top belt vibration a few years ago, I also added a top tensioner, as the bottom of the belt would now be tight while decelerating and the loose side would be on the top. With only 5 Lbs of tension on the top it is now smoother than I ever would have imagined. Would I rather have 2 tensioners and a much lower static tension than 1100N fixed tension to achieve the same effect?, absolutely. To each his own and I will be the first to tell you if something bad happens, I just don’t see it.
And to you, Joe Pilon, “cedar meadow”, while you are trying to deride my product and business practices and make me “feel the heat” as you put it and cause general inflammation, I thank you for the chance to bring to light the effects and uses of a tensioner to machinery in general. Do some reading, educate yourself, nothing to be scared of. Good day sir!
BRP has over 5000 dealerships in 80 countries, of which I have sold to dealers and customers alike in 35 countries. Not once has anyone contacted me with any issues of a problem related to the tensioners.
I would be surprised that BRP would suddenly send out a bulletin to all their dealers when there have been no reports of any failures, I am sure we would have heard of something along the way on Spyderlovers and I think I would be the first to hear about.
I think dealers would be calling me right and left wanting to know what is going on and how to return their inventory. If they have then I will eat my words.
Almost every modern car engine is equipped with a toothless single flat serpentine belt system powered from the crankshaft and running the alternator, AC, water pump, pollution control, etc. They all use a very heavy duty belt tensioner exerting extreme pressure with all kinds of backbends on the belt. You typically need to use a 1/2" breaker bar to relieve the pressure enough to change a belt, none of these bearings are failing. Usually the first thing to go is the tensioner bearing itself and they typically go over 100,000 miles before getting noisy.
Does the Rotax engine design have such weak output shaft bearings that 12 Lbs of spring loaded tension is going to destroy them, that seems ridiculous to me. These are rugged engines with slick shifting, trouble free gearboxes. Seals do fail occasionally on anything, but generally there is no reason for a seal to fail or start leaking unless there is damage or side to side movement of the shaft due to sloppy or worn bearings.
The main purpose of a tensioner on anything is to stop slippage or vibration without having to require extreme pressure on the other components.
This is not rocket science here, tensioners have been around forever and are on everything. Google it and read up.
A tensioner will increase belt life also. Not that the Gates belt manufactured for BRP has any problems, they are quite stout and last a long time. When a belt is vibrating to where you can barely see it, common sense should tell one this can't be good for anything.
If you can feel the vibration through the whole bike, imagine what your front sprocket , output shaft and rear bearing assembly are feeling, that is what's taking the brunt of the vibration first, how can this be good?
My 13 ST arrived with 770N, under-tensioned by BRP Spec’s of 900-1200N. It had the same vibration as most at 72-78 MPH. The tensioner at 12 Lbs. alleviated this without having to raise the fixed static tension. I I also noticed some vibration that would start about 50 down to 38MPH while slowly decelerating. Remembering a video that BRP sent to the dealers showing top belt vibration a few years ago, I also added a top tensioner, as the bottom of the belt would now be tight while decelerating and the loose side would be on the top. With only 5 Lbs of tension on the top it is now smoother than I ever would have imagined. Would I rather have 2 tensioners and a much lower static tension than 1100N fixed tension to achieve the same effect?, absolutely. To each his own and I will be the first to tell you if something bad happens, I just don’t see it.
And to you, Joe Pilon, “cedar meadow”, while you are trying to deride my product and business practices and make me “feel the heat” as you put it and cause general inflammation, I thank you for the chance to bring to light the effects and uses of a tensioner to machinery in general. Do some reading, educate yourself, nothing to be scared of. Good day sir!
Attachments
Dgjason
New member
RT Smoothspyder Belt tensioner
I am on my 3rd Spyder since 2008. I have installed the tensioner on my '08 RS, '12 RTS and my "14 RTS. A total of 48,000 trouble-free miles. My Spyders have been serviced by our local dealer, with tensioners installed. Two of the three were installed by the dealer. The newest one by me. Easy to do. Never a question about warranty. Best of all, the product is phenomenal. I am surprised BRP doesn't produce them. Great job Jim.
I am on my 3rd Spyder since 2008. I have installed the tensioner on my '08 RS, '12 RTS and my "14 RTS. A total of 48,000 trouble-free miles. My Spyders have been serviced by our local dealer, with tensioners installed. Two of the three were installed by the dealer. The newest one by me. Easy to do. Never a question about warranty. Best of all, the product is phenomenal. I am surprised BRP doesn't produce them. Great job Jim.
widowmaker2011
Member
Here is the simple solution to this whole thread.
The original poster should take their Spyder to the Dealer and ask them to correct the vibration , to their satisfaction, since an aftermarket solution to a defect on the Spyder will supposedly void the warranty .
After the dealer makes several unsuccessful repair attempts , email BRP and demand they step up and fix this vibration .
Simple , right? Exactly.
Why come on here and bash a vendor who supplies a product used by many many many Spyder owners , that greatly helps eliminate a situation that virtually all Spyders have ? Why not get your butt over to the dealer , demand they fix it and then in your words , make them feel the heat when they don't fix it.
Capt. Jim supplies a great product that made my Spyder a dream to drive , if you want to accept your Spyder with its vibrations the way it is, so be it. Otherwise you have two choices , demand it be fixed by your dealer (please report your results here) or put this simple straight forward part on and go spend your time enjoying your Spyder instead of spending it on hear crabbing......
The original poster should take their Spyder to the Dealer and ask them to correct the vibration , to their satisfaction, since an aftermarket solution to a defect on the Spyder will supposedly void the warranty .
After the dealer makes several unsuccessful repair attempts , email BRP and demand they step up and fix this vibration .
Simple , right? Exactly.
Why come on here and bash a vendor who supplies a product used by many many many Spyder owners , that greatly helps eliminate a situation that virtually all Spyders have ? Why not get your butt over to the dealer , demand they fix it and then in your words , make them feel the heat when they don't fix it.
Capt. Jim supplies a great product that made my Spyder a dream to drive , if you want to accept your Spyder with its vibrations the way it is, so be it. Otherwise you have two choices , demand it be fixed by your dealer (please report your results here) or put this simple straight forward part on and go spend your time enjoying your Spyder instead of spending it on hear crabbing......
finless
New member
Jim, you know how I feel about your product and I WAS A SCEPTICAL person with good mechanical knowledge.
All this is BS in my opinion....
I have said in my post that your instructions are clear about belt tension and top end of the spec. I read it and it was clear to me. Made sense too....
I have shot video showing what this unit does and NO FREAKIN WAY if your belt is even above mid spec, is it going to cause failures! That is my opinion of course. Bottom line it got rid of my belt vibrations that caused me to avoid certain speeds on the highway.
I AM pretty damn mechanically inclined and get the principles. This is not rocket science NOR is the belt tension adjustment which people put a lot of "voodoo" around..... Sheesh... makes me want to :banghead:
So simple really.......
Thumbs up Jim and all this "speculation" is really not warranted.... I personally thank you for a well tested, researched, and solid product!
AND I am not saying this to blow smoke up anyone arse...... I am saying this because I too was not sure but after doing a sh*t load of testing myself, it's solid and does what it claims PERIOD....
Bob
All this is BS in my opinion....
I have said in my post that your instructions are clear about belt tension and top end of the spec. I read it and it was clear to me. Made sense too....
I have shot video showing what this unit does and NO FREAKIN WAY if your belt is even above mid spec, is it going to cause failures! That is my opinion of course. Bottom line it got rid of my belt vibrations that caused me to avoid certain speeds on the highway.
I AM pretty damn mechanically inclined and get the principles. This is not rocket science NOR is the belt tension adjustment which people put a lot of "voodoo" around..... Sheesh... makes me want to :banghead:
So simple really.......
Thumbs up Jim and all this "speculation" is really not warranted.... I personally thank you for a well tested, researched, and solid product!
AND I am not saying this to blow smoke up anyone arse...... I am saying this because I too was not sure but after doing a sh*t load of testing myself, it's solid and does what it claims PERIOD....
Bob
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finless
New member
Just to add..... So people know....
There are 2 vibration issues. One is the belt at certain speeds NOT RPM's..... It is speed related....
The other is a RPM issue with the Rotax motor and the motor mounts. I still have that. You can get at certain RPM's (not speeds) a harmonic vibration you feel in the foot pegs. This is the motor bouncing on the motor mounts. It's a different vibration that the belt. Like a "hammering" feel. I wish I could explain it better. But after talking to many about this, it is common and MANY think it is the belt. Bottom line the belt vibe is a speed thing at highway speeds. It CAN come and go with load like going up or down a hill. When you go up a hill at the same speed the belt loads and vibes can go away for a little while. You will know the belt vibe cruising down the highway vs the motor mount RPOM vibe. You just have to realize the difference.
Bob
There are 2 vibration issues. One is the belt at certain speeds NOT RPM's..... It is speed related....
The other is a RPM issue with the Rotax motor and the motor mounts. I still have that. You can get at certain RPM's (not speeds) a harmonic vibration you feel in the foot pegs. This is the motor bouncing on the motor mounts. It's a different vibration that the belt. Like a "hammering" feel. I wish I could explain it better. But after talking to many about this, it is common and MANY think it is the belt. Bottom line the belt vibe is a speed thing at highway speeds. It CAN come and go with load like going up or down a hill. When you go up a hill at the same speed the belt loads and vibes can go away for a little while. You will know the belt vibe cruising down the highway vs the motor mount RPOM vibe. You just have to realize the difference.
Bob
jcthorne
Well-known member
At what RPM range do you typically notice this?
finless
New member
Around about 4,700 but not always. If your accelerating up to speed through 4,700 you don’t get it. If your "right there" and maybe slightly accelerating you notice it. I don't get it when decelerating.
Bob
capt.jim
Member
Excellent advise, I hope they raise it to 1195N.
I think it is time to put this thread to bed, at least about the warranty.
The question of the tensioner voiding the warranty is a reasonable and valid question that I do get occasionally. Thanks for all of your reasonable responses.
We all welcome intelligent dialogue and different points view and learning what to do or not to do by others experience. That's what forums are about and this is the best by far.
Trying to cause consternation through idiosyncratic thinking has no place here.
Obviously he has issues with everyone's advice and take on the subject, or nothing better to do. Let it go.
Now he is contacting me with a question through Ebay, which I recognize through his member name and spelling. "Dose your product void the factory warrenty? Retiredarmyman.
Enough already! :gaah: Good bye Joe!
finless
New member
Ronbo
New member
Smooth spyder...
Has taken all annoying belt vibrations out of my 2014 RT, Great, high quality product. I am very satisfied. Thank you capt jim.
Ronbo
Has taken all annoying belt vibrations out of my 2014 RT, Great, high quality product. I am very satisfied. Thank you capt jim.
Ronbo
I read this as...
-------------------------
I read this as...
we will not warranty anything put on your spyder that 1) we didnt make or provide 2) that was put on by anyone other than authorized service centers 3) that damages something we sold you or that we sold you and we put on.
so the stuff they put on and/or that they sell and they put on is still covered under the warranty unless it was damaged by the aftermarket part(s).
-------------------------
I read this as...
we will not warranty anything put on your spyder that 1) we didnt make or provide 2) that was put on by anyone other than authorized service centers 3) that damages something we sold you or that we sold you and we put on.
so the stuff they put on and/or that they sell and they put on is still covered under the warranty unless it was damaged by the aftermarket part(s).
Navy Warrant
New member
I believe the pertinent part is the word before what you highlighted. "Modifications". The tensioner is a mod. I just bought Doc Humphries complete kit and my dealer said it would void the drive train warranty. Hmmmm. What to do now?
Roadster Renovations
New member
.
.
We have had others have their dealer install them. I think you need to find another dealer to install it or install it yourself. Or contact us for a refund. As long as it hasn't been installed, we'll let you return it. Someone else will buy it. We sold 7 of them just today.
http://dochumphreys.wixsite.com/roadster
Just go to the contact area and message us.
And, FYI, any product not produced and installed by BRP is exactly in that same boat. Even their idler, if not installed by a BRP tech will fall into the same category.
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Roadster Renovations
New member
F3 Belt Idler failure
The following was forwarded to me today from a fellow Spyder Ryder about the BRP idler:
Here is the comment - they have around 8k miles on it I think "I wanted to give everyone a heads up. Yesterday while on a vacation road trip in New Mexico the BRP belt idler on my F3T failed. I was feeling a vibration at a different RPM than what i had before. Then there was a squeal that probably lasted 30 secs or so. Then had a nurning plastic smell that did not go away. We were able to get to Ruidoso, NM. Went to use the tool kit remove the side panel and the torx supplied do not fit. Luckily there was an autozone around the corner. We ziptied it up away from the belt until we can get to a dealer."
This was a BRP product installed by the dealer.
I had predicted months ago that these would start failing on people out on the road.....
The following was forwarded to me today from a fellow Spyder Ryder about the BRP idler:
Here is the comment - they have around 8k miles on it I think "I wanted to give everyone a heads up. Yesterday while on a vacation road trip in New Mexico the BRP belt idler on my F3T failed. I was feeling a vibration at a different RPM than what i had before. Then there was a squeal that probably lasted 30 secs or so. Then had a nurning plastic smell that did not go away. We were able to get to Ruidoso, NM. Went to use the tool kit remove the side panel and the torx supplied do not fit. Luckily there was an autozone around the corner. We ziptied it up away from the belt until we can get to a dealer."
This was a BRP product installed by the dealer.
I had predicted months ago that these would start failing on people out on the road.....
Navy Warrant
New member
Dealer is incorrect. BRP now sells one for the F3 (BRP part # 219800412), and there's an aftermarket adapter available for the RT. The other brands, including Doc Humphries complete RT kit, etc, do NOT void the warranty or even the drive warranty. A non-BRP part is not covered, naturally. Or if the part fails and causes damage it would not be covered. Naturally. I called BRP and verified this.
