Bob Denman
New member
:shocked::agree:
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Startron & ethanol fuel
- Thread starter taxmyzer
- Start date
Dan_Ashley
New member
I know very little on this topic, but I have a hearsay type of observation. This is really just a long question.
In 1978 my wife (who I divorced soon after--so she is now my ex)...well she was a truck driver--she drove gas tankers for delivery of liquid fuels to retail gas stations. She drove for a big company, which was not owned by one of the oil companies. Some days she drove with Shell painted on the truck, some days Texaco, or Chevron. (Or so she said).
She said that regardless where the gas ended up, it all came out of the same pipe at the refinery.
If she was truthful, then my question is: what is the difference between top tier gas and the other stuff? Wouldn't gas just be gas?
quickster47
New member
Dan I think the difference is in the additives used by the various companies.
Carl
Carl
Dan_Ashley
New member
oh...then I wonder what those additives are, what the do, and if they are sold in adequate concentration to do those things.
BajaRon
Well-known member
It is true that 'Dry' E10 blended fuel provides about 3-4% less energy than gasoline. In a perfect world this would translate to a less than 5% fuel mileage difference. The trouble is, ethanol is a water magnet. Typically, ethanol blended fuel will have a moisture content that further degrades energy availability, especially in high humidity climates (or anytime a water source is available). This means it is very possible to experience as much as a 10% difference in actual mileage between E10 and straight gasoline fuels.
She is correct, ex or not, right is right. However, just because it comes out of the same pipe doesn't mean it's the same fuel. Diesel and all kinds of fuel products also come out of the same pipe.
Go to a grainery. Everything may come out of the same chute, but it's definitely not all the same stuff.
What makes us suspicious is that here we are dealing with a liquid. And that does make it more difficult.
Here (in a simplistic way) is what happens with fuel in a pipeline scenario (like the LA to San Diego pipeline which terminates at a tank farm near Charger's stadium). A valve to the main line is opened at the refinery in LA and a Shell fuel product is pumped in. A marker is also inserted at the front of this flow. When that marker arrives at Point B it is recognized, the valve to the Texaco container closes and the valve to the Shell container opens. There may be a bit of mixing with the previous product in transport, but it is surprisingly small, and they have ways of dealing with this that does not degrade or alter the product.
The same happens for each grade of Shell fuel. Most of the time branded additives (like Techron) and ethanol are added to fuel when dispensed into the tanker truck before being transported to the final distribution point (your gas station).
My brother-in-law worked as a corporate manager for Conoco/Phillips for many years. I had the same questions you did about 1 pipe, many fuels.
Believe me, they have it down to a science.
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Dan_Ashley
New member
that makes sense. The only remaining question is: what are the additives supposed to do, and do the actually do those thing in a typical motor.
The basic gasoline is all the same and comes out of the same tank at the refinery. HOWEVER, after the tanker is almost full, there is an additive package that's added. In the case of Top Tier gasoline, this is a better additive package with more detergent. In the case of the unbranded fuel at your local convenience store there is a lower quality additive package. There are big time fines if a station is not selling gas with the designated additive package for that brand.
That's how it was explained to me. I could be wrong.
That's how it was explained to me. I could be wrong.
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Can you give me a reference for this?
r1100rider
New member
So I guess that proves that there may be a bennifit from additives like startron
BajaRon
Well-known member
Ethanol blended fuel actually tends to leave more deposits than straight gasoline so the additive package is more important with E10. There have been extensive testing on products like Techron which, if you can believe what they say, actually do make a difference over the long run.
Quick fixes will only work if you have a real problem, and even then, it is my feeling that most off the shelf products don't do much if anything at all.
Most products like Startron are designed to keep your fuel system in good condition more than fix existing issues with the fuel system.
Dan_Ashley
New member
It proves that some additives are added to some brands of gas. But it does nothing to address the effect of those additives in an engine.
As an example think of this, I could add a 1/4 teaspoon of honey to my orange juice every morning and tell everyone that I have natural, health enriched orange juice. If a government agency checks, they will find that I really do have a natural additive in my orange juice. However, there was no proof nor any discussion, other than advertising, that the addition of that tiny amount of honey does any good.
Same with the gas. Just because the companies put something "special" in it does not mean that it will do any good. That is why I am curious about what they put in, the concentration, snd the effect on an internal combustion gasoline engine.
I bet there have been no investigations of this...I hope I am wrong on that.
sledmaster
Member
Ethanol fuel has sulfuric acid residue
About as year and a half ago I attended a seminar put on by engineers from Yamaha, and one of the subjects was all of the problems caused by ethanol in the gas. They showed us test data from their testing of all the different fuel stabilizer products. This is what I learned.
In the world of fuel stabilizer products, there are various methods or approaches to try to keep petro fuel from gumming up your fuel system, and to keep it fresh so the engine starts after many months of non-service. Two of the most commonly used formulas are known as “alcohol based” and “enzyme based”. While they can keep fuel fresh to a certain degree, they tend to allow a large amount of corrosion to occur to metal components in the fuel system. This is in a large part due to the ethanol now in the fuel.
The really bad guys are the left-over sulfate salts from the manufacturing of ethanol. We’re talking sulfuric acid, and this contaminant is present in ethanol fuels, and is VERY corrosive. It aggressively attacks aluminum, steels, coppers, yellow metals and silver solders – all found in fuel systems. This is the worst problem with ethanol fuel – CORROSION of the soft metals.
Yamaha’s service division has been dealing with the problems caused by the corrosion caused by the sulfuric acid. They examined the various fuel stabilizer products on the market. What they discovered was that while the stabilizer products could keep the fuel fresh, they didn’t do a good enough job as they could do simply due to the cost of the ingredients involved. They tested the available products and found a disturbing level of corrosion occurring to metal components. This is when they decided to design their own products to combat the issues; Fuel Med RX and Engine Med RX. These are proprietary products, and they are expensive, but they work.
Fuel Med RX is primarily a fuel stabilizer with corrosion inhibitors, where Engine Med RX provides advanced de-carboning action along with more corrosion inhibitors. They are compatible and can be used together, but where the Fuel Med RX is designed to keep fuel fresh for periods of storage, Engine Med RX is designed to be used with every fill to keep everything clean – it has the same de-carboning ingredient as Ring Free.
I’ve been using these products and am convinced there is no better fuel stabilizer or internal engine cleaner being offered anywhere at any price. Yes, it will cost more than the “old” technology fuel stabilizers, but it’s all a matter of the ingredients used in the formula – you get what you pay for.
About as year and a half ago I attended a seminar put on by engineers from Yamaha, and one of the subjects was all of the problems caused by ethanol in the gas. They showed us test data from their testing of all the different fuel stabilizer products. This is what I learned.
In the world of fuel stabilizer products, there are various methods or approaches to try to keep petro fuel from gumming up your fuel system, and to keep it fresh so the engine starts after many months of non-service. Two of the most commonly used formulas are known as “alcohol based” and “enzyme based”. While they can keep fuel fresh to a certain degree, they tend to allow a large amount of corrosion to occur to metal components in the fuel system. This is in a large part due to the ethanol now in the fuel.
The really bad guys are the left-over sulfate salts from the manufacturing of ethanol. We’re talking sulfuric acid, and this contaminant is present in ethanol fuels, and is VERY corrosive. It aggressively attacks aluminum, steels, coppers, yellow metals and silver solders – all found in fuel systems. This is the worst problem with ethanol fuel – CORROSION of the soft metals.
Yamaha’s service division has been dealing with the problems caused by the corrosion caused by the sulfuric acid. They examined the various fuel stabilizer products on the market. What they discovered was that while the stabilizer products could keep the fuel fresh, they didn’t do a good enough job as they could do simply due to the cost of the ingredients involved. They tested the available products and found a disturbing level of corrosion occurring to metal components. This is when they decided to design their own products to combat the issues; Fuel Med RX and Engine Med RX. These are proprietary products, and they are expensive, but they work.
Fuel Med RX is primarily a fuel stabilizer with corrosion inhibitors, where Engine Med RX provides advanced de-carboning action along with more corrosion inhibitors. They are compatible and can be used together, but where the Fuel Med RX is designed to keep fuel fresh for periods of storage, Engine Med RX is designed to be used with every fill to keep everything clean – it has the same de-carboning ingredient as Ring Free.
I’ve been using these products and am convinced there is no better fuel stabilizer or internal engine cleaner being offered anywhere at any price. Yes, it will cost more than the “old” technology fuel stabilizers, but it’s all a matter of the ingredients used in the formula – you get what you pay for.
Bob Denman
New member
To be somewhat fair...
snowmobile manufacturers have had problems with ethanol for years! :gaah:
I wonder how much of their science is now specifically geared to "poking holes" in ethanol's balloon...
snowmobile manufacturers have had problems with ethanol for years! :gaah:
I wonder how much of their science is now specifically geared to "poking holes" in ethanol's balloon...
sledmaster
Member
Gas is made for automobiles, the rest of us suffer
The Yamaha engineer doing the ethanol presentation was a marine guy from Georgia, as the marine industry has probably had more trouble with ethanol than the snowmobiles. It is any and all of the seasonal use products that don't use the fuel in a 30-60 day timeframe. They seemed to be more interested in solving problems and keeping customers happy with units that were performing well, instead of having issues with a 1-2-3 year old product. When marketing guys talk I get suspicious, when engineers talk I listen. What I believe is still debatable...
The Yamaha engineer doing the ethanol presentation was a marine guy from Georgia, as the marine industry has probably had more trouble with ethanol than the snowmobiles. It is any and all of the seasonal use products that don't use the fuel in a 30-60 day timeframe. They seemed to be more interested in solving problems and keeping customers happy with units that were performing well, instead of having issues with a 1-2-3 year old product. When marketing guys talk I get suspicious, when engineers talk I listen. What I believe is still debatable...
BajaRon
Well-known member
The affinity of ethanol for water/moisture is well documented and that can be found in nearly every article written about it. It is also well documented that available energy is reduced as moisture content increases.
But you bring up a good point. Anyone can say anything on a forum like this and it doesn't necessarily make it true. I have not been able to find the article I am referencing. I did find similar articles that generally refer to these same issues but do not give any specific information.
Dragonrider
New member
Fergedaboudit…… www.puregas.com = dealers who sell zero (0) ethanol gas. The only gas I use in my Spyder (whenever possible).
Bob Denman
New member
BajaRon
Well-known member
Really!?
Bob Denman
New member
Laissez les Bon Temps Rouler!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez_les_bons_temps_rouler
:2thumbs::yes:
hyea::yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez_les_bons_temps_rouler
:2thumbs::yes:
hyea::yes:
