10 spyder rt now showing very hot

[leonml]

I'm not sure what's going on here, but I bought my spyder rt in 2011 as a 10 model clear out. Had no problems but belt squeal which has never gone away, and happens during accelerating, and usually in corners mostly. Well on with the big problem.

I've never had this issue and as I remember since day one the spyder ran typically at mid level on the gauge, as far as I remember. Last year for sure. Well since sometime this year I noticed it up higher than usual, like one full line below the black line at the start of the hot zone. As I've ridden it seems to have gone hotter. Now I see that just normal driving all speeds that the gauge is right at the hot line. I'm confused by the fact that the fan kicks in only 15 seconds it seems and only when the gauge just goes over the first line for HOT. It cools it enough to bring it down, but just below the full Hot line, not even cool enough to reach the first mid bar in the white area. Coolant level is good. I ran a garden hose, which got pretty cold on the radiatior and the temp dropped right to the middle of the gauge and stayed there, so I'm assuming it's cooling the block for the sensor to read that I was cooling the engine via the radiator, so we have flow. I then proceeded to go to the dealer mechanic with the issue and he said it feels damn hot and is not cooling properly. He pulled a temp sensor out of a traded 10 rt, and ohm'ed it out. He pondered possibly having an issue with a stuck thermostat, and he was pointing out the hose near the radiator which I'm assuming housed it. I'm at a loss because if cold water cools the radiator and the gauge drops as the sensor is reading that it's getting cooled and I ohm'ed my sensor out and it's 2060 vs the one he gave me 1936, within spec according to the chart he had in a manual.

What's going on? I believe that it should drop if air is flowing through the radiator, and even if it wasn't flowing or what I believe is not possible that the thermostat is stuck as I've only seen them work, or not, that it's not getting sufficient flow, then why would the water hose cool it? Even so, if flow was the problem then why doesn't the stupid fan turn on sooner and stay on longer, or till it cools it down a substantial amount, it doesn't. None of this makes sense. I was going to swap the sensor anyway, but it's not.

Yes fluid level is good, air flow is good and nothing in front of the vent, etc.

 

[NancysToy]

The fan should run when the gauge reaches about six bars. If it does not, and does not continue to run until the gauge drops back below that point, check the fan circuit fuse and relay. A loose relay or bad relay contacts are common suspects. Also check the air inlet and radiator for blockage and the fan blades that they turn freely. If everything is free and the fuse isn't blown and the relay is good, or if the trip point is not correct, the sensor is suspect and should be tested. The gauge is also possibly off, especially if the Spyder never actually overheats and goes into limp mode. Disconnecting both gauges will enable the digital equivalent in the display. If they don't read about the same, the gauge is probably wonky. The thermostat could be bad, but as you say, cooling the radiator drops the temp, so that isn't as likely. Still, it is an easy and relatively cheap thing to replace. The water pump could also be bad. It is hard to assess water flow (thermostat and water pump) in the Spyder without an actual radiator cap. You may be able to detect some movement in the coolant tank, though. Please be aware that the Spyder running temp will vary by a mark or two on the gauge just because of ambient temperatures. At 40 it may run at three bars, while at 75 it will usually see five, and at 100 it is more likely to be 6-7, with the fan running continuously. Also be aware that the analog gauge reading depends on the viewing angle, and that the gauge actually covers quite a small band of actual temperatures. The bottom and top of the gauge are not that many degreees apart. If the Spyder is not giving an overheat warning and going into limp mode, it is not overheating...unless the sensor is bad.

 

[Bob Denman]

Two year old coolant; is it time perhaps to change it? :dontknow:

 

[leonml]

Old coolant?

Two year old coolant; is it time perhaps to change it? :dontknow:

If we've come to this that now coolant has an expiration date, I'm done with anything with an engine. Wouldn't put it past them to eventually screw us with something like that.

 

[leonml]

The fan should run when the gauge reaches about six bars. If it does not, and does not continue to run until the gauge drops back below that point, check the fan circuit fuse and relay. A loose relay or bad relay contacts are common suspects. Also check the air inlet and radiator for blockage and the fan blades that they turn freely. If everything is free and the fuse isn't blown and the relay is good, or if the trip point is not correct, the sensor is suspect and should be tested. The gauge is also possibly off, especially if the Spyder never actually overheats and goes into limp mode. Disconnecting both gauges will enable the digital equivalent in the display. If they don't read about the same, the gauge is probably wonky. The thermostat could be bad, but as you say, cooling the radiator drops the temp, so that isn't as likely. Still, it is an easy and relatively cheap thing to replace. The water pump could also be bad. It is hard to assess water flow (thermostat and water pump) in the Spyder without an actual radiator cap. You may be able to detect some movement in the coolant tank, though. Please be aware that the Spyder running temp will vary by a mark or two on the gauge just because of ambient temperatures. At 40 it may run at three bars, while at 75 it will usually see five, and at 100 it is more likely to be 6-7, with the fan running continuously. Also be aware that the analog gauge reading depends on the viewing angle, and that the gauge actually covers quite a small band of actual temperatures. The bottom and top of the gauge are not that many degreees apart. If the Spyder is not giving an overheat warning and going into limp mode, it is not overheating...unless the sensor is bad.

I know it's getting hot, if the dealer says he can tell just by the amount of heat the radiator is putting off and pretty much the whole bike. I also know it's getting too hot because the bike shouldn't be perculating like a mr. coffee when I pull into the garage. Yes it's making gurgle bubbling noises, so it is too hot.

no relay problem, no fuse problem. The fan comes on, just goes off right away and bike not cool enough. I've ridden it allot like this as you said no limp mode not overheating, but as I stated above it's overheating enough to be concerned, engines don't last when boiling the antifreeze and running hot. That oil has to be broke down bad and fast run this hot. With as much riding I've done with it like this, it's consistent in when the fan comes on and all that, so relay never changing. I'm assuming that all the relays on the bike are the same in that fuse box as they all seem to have the same specs from a quick glance.

What's really dumb is these machines have all the high tech goods, yet when I asked the mechanic if they can hook up a laptop to see what temp the sensor is reading and to see when the ECM is programmed to come on and go off, NOPE! What a waste, something like this would be so easy and it would also be so easy for Can Am to design these machines so that simply tapping into the ECM with a laptop and entering a new value would change when the ecm tells the fan to come on and turn off. If nothing else it would save a crapload of time actually pulling parts to test. You could even design it with a flow sensor and again, in 10 minutes know what's going on. In some ways the bike is pretty impressive tech wise and other it's lacking simple tech that would improve support to the customer and the mechanic. :banghead:

Again, there is flow since the garden hose cools the radiator and then the sensor sees it. The fan is working and comes on always at the same time, but runs the same short few seconds and goes off. The sensor in the bike ohm'ed the same as the one he gave me. I think I'll change it and see, who knows it may not be changing it's resistance with the increase of temp correctly, not sure how that's possible, but I'll give it a shot. As I've seen some strange stuff in electronics, If that doesn't work, I'm leaning toward the ECM needing to be reflashed, or that it has a problem. I've had lasers that did some flakey stuff like this where it was seeing false problems with a high voltage power supply and giving errors, and after hours of replacing parts hoping, it turned out to be the mother board/ecm.

 

[leonml]

relays

Can Someone Tell Me Left To Right What Number The Relays Are, c0910, Or C0944. Not Sure It maTters Those Numbers AS They Seem To Be The Same Rating.

 

[bruiser]

If we've come to this that now coolant has an expiration date, I'm done with anything with an engine. Wouldn't put it past them to eventually screw us with something like that.

Per owners manual- replace coolant 12,000 miles or two years, whichever comes first. Coolants tend to loose their lubricating and rust inhibiting properties over time.

 

[bruiser]

All the relays are the same and can be swapped.

 

[bruiser]

Relays L-R

R1-Air Controlled Suspension
R2-Pre Start
R3-Main Power 2
R4-Cooling Fan
R5-Load Shedding
R6-Headlights
R7-Main 1
R8-Headlight High/Low Beam

Note that R7 and R8 are on the bottom of the panel.

 

[Bob Denman]

If we've come to this that now coolant has an expiration date, I'm done with anything with an engine. Wouldn't put it past them to eventually screw us with something like that.

I certainly didn't mean to insult you... pps:
What is the interval that BRP suggests for replacing it? :dontknow:

 

[bruiser]

12,000 miles or two years. #8 above.

 

[Bob Denman]

Thanks Jim! :thumbup:
My suggestion was more of a "shot on the dark", than anything else...

 

[NancysToy]

I know it's getting hot, if the dealer says he can tell just by the amount of heat the radiator is putting off and pretty much the whole bike. I also know it's getting too hot because the bike shouldn't be perculating like a mr. coffee when I pull into the garage. Yes it's making gurgle bubbling noises, so it is too hot.

no relay problem, no fuse problem. The fan comes on, just goes off right away and bike not cool enough. I've ridden it allot like this as you said no limp mode not overheating, but as I stated above it's overheating enough to be concerned, engines don't last when boiling the antifreeze and running hot. That oil has to be broke down bad and fast run this hot. With as much riding I've done with it like this, it's consistent in when the fan comes on and all that, so relay never changing. I'm assuming that all the relays on the bike are the same in that fuse box as they all seem to have the same specs from a quick glance.

What's really dumb is these machines have all the high tech goods, yet when I asked the mechanic if they can hook up a laptop to see what temp the sensor is reading and to see when the ECM is programmed to come on and go off, NOPE! What a waste, something like this would be so easy and it would also be so easy for Can Am to design these machines so that simply tapping into the ECM with a laptop and entering a new value would change when the ecm tells the fan to come on and turn off. If nothing else it would save a crapload of time actually pulling parts to test. You could even design it with a flow sensor and again, in 10 minutes know what's going on. In some ways the bike is pretty impressive tech wise and other it's lacking simple tech that would improve support to the customer and the mechanic. :banghead:

Again, there is flow since the garden hose cools the radiator and then the sensor sees it. The fan is working and comes on always at the same time, but runs the same short few seconds and goes off. The sensor in the bike ohm'ed the same as the one he gave me. I think I'll change it and see, who knows it may not be changing it's resistance with the increase of temp correctly, not sure how that's possible, but I'll give it a shot. As I've seen some strange stuff in electronics, If that doesn't work, I'm leaning toward the ECM needing to be reflashed, or that it has a problem. I've had lasers that did some flakey stuff like this where it was seeing false problems with a high voltage power supply and giving errors, and after hours of replacing parts hoping, it turned out to be the mother board/ecm.

If the fan comes on only for a few seconds, it is not functioning correctly. There are tests for the relay and the fan itself that your dealer can run. One or the other of them may be cutting out as soon as it heats up. The Spyder generally doesn't need the fan except in hot ambient temperatures or at slow speeds, however.

As far as the reasoning of "It's running hotter because you can feel the heat" goes, it is not an appropriate method of testing. Only a thermometer or infrared tester can tell the truth. Radiators always give off heat. That's their job...and it is one way you can tell that they are working. Spyders do run hot to the touch or feel. Only by actually measuring temperatures, perhaps comparing to another Spyder, can the heat be deemed unusual.

The boilng gas is a concern, and indicates a possible problem, although a lot of Spyders do this if ambient temperatures exceed 90-100 degrees. The noise is not likely the coolant boiling, unless the water pump is not working. That is unlikely since your gauges read normal and there is no overheating warning. If the coolant level is low, it could happen without warning. If the coolant gets hot enough to boil under pressure, it will usually flow out the coolant bottle overflow.

Your tech is correct in that there is no BUDS test listed for the temperature sensor. I would not blame the ECM or cluster unless there are other problems...or unless you run out of other possibilities.

The thermostat must be removed to test it. It is placed into a pan of heated water and watched while a thermometer is monitored. There is no good way to test the water pump, although if the radiator is hot both the thermostat and water pump are at least working partially. Pouring water over any radiator cools it, and is not a valid test of anything but the fact that the water is moving if the temp comes down.

 

[jerpinoy]

:roflblack:I only need a longer water hose:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::joke::joke::joke:

 

[leonml]

Per owners manual- replace coolant 12,000 miles or two years, whichever comes first. Coolants tend to loose their lubricating and rust inhibiting properties over time.

Got it, I'm at 5000 so that negates that. I have a few cycles and rode those some too, but using the spyder more and more, especially with a trailer I can go get crap anywhere just about. I also just like it to go to the gym and fit my gym bag and grab a gallon of milk.

 

[leonml]

Ok. ran more tests. I hooked up the sensor that the dealer gave me, and found that boiling water isn't hot enough to get it to the red zone, nor when it came close did the fan come on or anything, so I resorted to an age old invention, fire. I put a small flame under the gauge till it hit the red zone. Fan came on like it did with my original sensor, so, so much for a faulty sensor. One thing I did notice is that the thing didn't trip into a limp mode warning until the needle was at the top of the gauge. So I'm guessing as long as the fan kicks in when it is, and cools it enough, that it's ok to drive. It has to get to the top of the red zone to go limp mode. Now all this being said, this thing still gets too hot and if your coolant makes gurgle noises at regular driving conditions, something stinks. I don't like it. I think that I'm going to run a switch that will allow me to just turn the fan on whenever I want so I can keep it at midlevel. Now I've considered that maybe the gauge, like the fuel gauges that bounced are of poor design and maybe some just don't read accurate. Dealer says the new spyders still have this issue, at least some of them. I'm going to say that no matter what, with a fan can to block that hot air, which I installed after the fact that it gets hot and climbs the gauge to where it is, it feels mighty hot even with your leg next to the hole by the radiator. I thought about a different thermostat, but I don't believe flow is a problem, but maybe it will help, probably not sense it should be open and cooling better when it's so hot and it doesn't.

 

[rcturner]

I don't know if the possibility of a stuck open thermostat has been exhausted but, not only does a stuck closed thermostat cause the coolant to overheat, a stuck open thermostat can cause the same problem. The cooling system relies on the physical restriction of the thermostat to hold the coolant in the radiator long enough to cool. If it circulates to quickly, it doesn't get a chance to cool properly.

 

[leonml]

I don't know if the possibility of a stuck open thermostat has been exhausted but, not only does a stuck closed thermostat cause the coolant to overheat, a stuck open thermostat can cause the same problem. The cooling system relies on the physical restriction of the thermostat to hold the coolant in the radiator long enough to cool. If it circulates to quickly, it doesn't get a chance to cool properly.

If the stat was stuck it shouldn't negate that running up to the black bar just at the redzone and the fan not coming on till just passed it, makes no sense. Running the cold water on the radiator also showed it had flow because it dropped the temp to the mid range on the gauge in a matter of less than a minute, then stayed there which means the stat must've closed, which also means it stayed open long enough to get that temp down. Then it stayed there so long as I had the hose on the radiator so I don't believe it closes off at all and only didn't get cooler due to the fact that the engine was able to warm the water too quickly once it crossed the temp sensor. So if my logic is making any sense, the stat is open and stays open even when the temp gauge is at midrange, so must close only when running under at some level.

If you're thinking were right, then why no fan to cool the radiator as it gets so hot before the fan comes on and shuts off. I've never heard of a thermostat actually that regulates the flow in order for it to cool the fluid enough before letting it back in the block because if during hot hard running the fluid in the block would then also be given more time to get even hotter so that makes no sense and would be counter productive. Far as I know the stat opens wide open in order to keep the flow and dissipate as much heat as possible not knowing the water isn't being cooled properly through the radiator or fan, and the only time it actually is regulating temp is to keep it closed and only open slowly as the temp rises. Either way seeing that the temp has no change why no difference in the time it comes on and how long it stays on. I read that these spyders run hot for emissions but always showing it run at the cusp of redline is screwy. The outside air should do something, it should cool the radiator while your moving, especially in 70s and at hwy speed, and it's not.

Only temp sensor problem I've seen is stuck closed, overheats, done. Basically the spring gets weak and can't open to allow flow. If this is happening theres still no reason the fan doesn't run longer to bring it down. It would seem that the thing would constantly be in the red and therefore fan running in effort to cool and either limp mode or fan runs constant to keep up. That temp climbs up in maybe 15 minutes of driving and stays up, so I would think if the stat stays stuck it should keep climbing instead of just staying in one spot.

Now I know it was in the 90 degree or so zone, but even in the mid to upper 70s it ran just as hot.

 

[leonml]

I certainly didn't mean to insult you... pps:
What is the interval that BRP suggests for replacing it? :dontknow:

NO, just never remember ever doing a radiator flush in anything, in fact know of no one ever doing it either, never had radiator fluid not work any worse in any number of years vs new.

 

[NancysToy]

My belief, based on your sensor testing, is that the gauge may be wonky. Trying the digital gauge might prove that, although the temperature signal appears that it may be retransmitted by the cluster, so that would also mean the cluster could be at fault if that proves to be true, and both gauges would read inaccurately. A dirty, loose, or bad connection which changed the resistance anywhere in the circuit could also be at fault, as that could change both the gauge readings and the fan response and warnings.

I still feel that your fan is not operating properly, although if it came on and stayed on during your testing it is probably OK and your Spyder temperature and fan are cycling as they normally do. If the fan comes on then cycles off, but the temp continues to rise, there is a problem. If the fan comes on, the temp gauge drops slightly, and it cycles back off, that would be normal. A fan that runs continuously indicates running hotter than normal, but not necessarily overheating. The fan should come on around the sixth bar or mark, and cycle off around 5 marks or bars. Be aware that the viewing angle may change the perception of where it comes on with the analog gauge. Overheating warnings should not wait until the top of the gauge, but come on at the bottom of the red or even nearer seven bars. Your testing method may have had something to do with that. A direct heat source is pretty uncontrollable, reacts fast, and could heat the sensor metal so that the temperature continued to rise after the heat was removed.

Boiling water in a pot should not be enough to trigger a warning...water under pressure and with coolant added boils at a higher temperature than plain water under atmospheric pressure. Your test went as I would expect it to go, in that regard.