Are There Still People Out There Who Don't Think Helmets Are Necessary?

[bone crusher]

It isn't an unreasonable request to you. However you didn't address my point that merely riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving in a car. Is this true or not? In an accident, is any motorcycle rider more prone to injury than someone driving a car?

So lets say a non rider proposes that anyone foolish enough to ride a motorcycle is injured that they should bear 100% of their costs. If a non rider proposed this, would you support it as reasonable?

The facts are clear in both your example and mine. The difference is that my example begins to infringe upon your right to choose. So would that be acceptable to you?

Insurance cost is based on the law of large numbers. So we all do bear the cost of increased injuries. And injuries result in any motorcycle accident, regardless of helmet at a higher rate than if you were driving a car. Nothing in that business operates in a vacuum.

Who cares if motorcycles are more dangerous than cars? That's why the coverages are not blended. That has nothing to do with our discussion. Nobody with car insurance gives a hoot about you or me and our motorcycle coverage as they are totally separate.

The facts are not clear as you are describing... We have motorcycle insurance to cover us when on a bike, just as you have business, homeowner's, car, and other insurances. These insurances are there to cover you should anything happen but they are specific to what they cover. You can't compare car and motorcycles. A non-rider is not paying for motorcycle insurance like you and me.

Please allow me to give another example of a flaw in your argument...you have homeowner's insurance and you decide to build a basement with a few buddies. Depending what jurisdiction you are in, you fail to get necessary permits to do so. You have an electrical fire and your house burns down. Your insurance decides NOT to cover you even though you have insurance...why is this?? This is because you failed to be responsible...your problem, you pay. Your argument would be that you have paid your premiums...theirs would be that you did not follow the rules and had substandard electrical installation that caused a fire.

The same applies for the helmet example...simply put, there is no reasonable way to argue in favor of not wearing a helmet unless you get emotional about it, and emotion does not win against facts. Helmets save lives, period. I don't think this point needs to be argued any further...there is simply no other way to tackle this. If you don't wear a helmet, you are costing many others a lot of cash. With that being said, I think we can all agree that you should have a choice to wear one or not...this debate is not about whether you want to wear one or not...it's about bearing responsibility for your actions should you fight the data.

As far as rates go, yes, all our motorcycle insurance rates are determined by actuarial charts...and yes, people not wearing helmets raise our rates...this is clear by the findings of the study.

So again, what point are you trying to make?..that nobody should be able to ride a bike because it's inherently more dangerous than driving a car? You think people with car insurance are worrying about paying for injuries due to motorcycles? As a side note, do you realize that each car has different insurance rates as well due to crash results, safety, etc...? Again, you can get coverage, but some rides are more dangerous than others.

Bottom line: if you choose to make your ride exponentially more dangerous than others, then you should have to pay for that risk so others do not have to...this is fair for all...what issue do you have with this?

 

[Firefly]

Guess they should ban cheeseburgers too.....they kill people also.

Ditto on guns.

Ohhhhhhh.... No I didn't!

My brain..... MY CHOICE.

Money saved should be the LAST reason to take away my personal rights!

Since Michigan went no helmet I have been riding quite a bit without one...... Which is a really STUPID thing to do...... But in America we have the right to be stupid.

That being said....on my trip to Yellowstone, the Grand Canyon and eventually Durango..... I have been wearing my full face the whole time.... For a few reasons:

1. I don't have to mess with sunscreen.
2. I think I actually feel cooler with it on.
3. Wind buffeting is less.
4. Wildlife jumping out in front of us.
5. I want to be safe.
6. At my girlfriends request...I promised her I would.


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[Firefly]

The child seat argument is total bs. We are talking about ADULTS that can make their own decisions.

Bonecrusher, the problem with your data is it doesn't show how many people will NOT be on life support for 20 years because they will die at the scene due to not wearing a helmet.

But really...all of your data is MOOT.

I pay extra on my insurance for the privilege of not wearing a helmet should I CHOOSE not to. Your idea that I should have to pay 100% of my own medical expenses should I injure my brain is RIDICULES!

We ALL pay in to insurance and taxes for things we never benefit from or that we agree with. maybe you feel you feel a lung cancer patient shouldn't be covered because they smoked? Maybe if you shoot yourself in the foot with a gun you shouldn't be covered.... Maybe I don't like paying for wars that kill tens of thousands?

Are you getting it yet?

All adults should have the CHOICE pertaining to helmets and seatbelts.....and if their insurance company decides to charge them more....then they have that right......but please stop trying to put a dollar figure on MY freedoms.


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[Tierhog]

Come on guys-
If you choose not to... Good luck
If you choose to... Good luck

We are all semi-free adults. Do what you want. We take risks everyday. Just riding has a 39 x higher chance of mortality over a cage.

Stats can be twisted both ways..

Stay safe out there.

 

[bikeguy]

My position is the same as the AMA's. I always wear a helmet and I strongly urge everyone else to wear one but I'll always cast my vote against mandatory helmet laws. We've lost enough freedoms and we've given enough power to the "nanny" state as it is. It has to stop somewhere because if it doesn't motorcycles, themselves, may be the next freedom that's taken away. I remember a conversation a number of years ago with a non-riding friend who favored mandatory helmet laws. I asked him how he would feel about a mandatory seatbelt law which we didn't have in Texas at the time. He said that would never happen and if it did he wouldn't obey the law. Said it was nobody's business whether he wore a seatbelt or not. He's dead now but he lived long enough to cuss every time he put his seatbelt on. The "nanny" state won't stop until WE decide to stop it. There are a myriad of ways to kill ourselves, some slow and some faster. Freedom is more important than our opinions about who's stupid and who's not. Besides, I want to be able to say that I wear a helmet because it's MY choice to wear one.

Cotton

 

[SteveMac]

Who cares if motorcycles are more dangerous than cars? That's why the coverages are not blended. That has nothing to do with our discussion. Nobody with car insurance gives a hoot about you or me and our motorcycle coverage as they are totally separate.

The facts are not clear as you are describing... We have motorcycle insurance to cover us when on a bike, just as you have business, homeowner's, car, and other insurances. These insurances are there to cover you should anything happen but they are specific to what they cover. You can't compare car and motorcycles. A non-rider is not paying for motorcycle insurance like you and me.

Please allow me to give another example of a flaw in your argument...you have homeowner's insurance and you decide to build a basement with a few buddies. Depending what jurisdiction you are in, you fail to get necessary permits to do so. You have an electrical fire and your house burns down. Your insurance decides NOT to cover you even though you have insurance...why is this?? This is because you failed to be responsible...your problem, you pay. Your argument would be that you have paid your premiums...theirs would be that you did not follow the rules and had substandard electrical installation that caused a fire.

The same applies for the helmet example...simply put, there is no reasonable way to argue in favor of not wearing a helmet unless you get emotional about it, and emotion does not win against facts. Helmets save lives, period. I don't think this point needs to be argued any further...there is simply no other way to tackle this. If you don't wear a helmet, you are costing many others a lot of cash. With that being said, I think we can all agree that you should have a choice to wear one or not...this debate is not about whether you want to wear one or not...it's about bearing responsibility for your actions should you fight the data.

As far as rates go, yes, all our motorcycle insurance rates are determined by actuarial charts...and yes, people not wearing helmets raise our rates...this is clear by the findings of the study.

So again, what point are you trying to make?..that nobody should be able to ride a bike because it's inherently more dangerous than driving a car? You think people with car insurance are worrying about paying for injuries due to motorcycles? As a side note, do you realize that each car has different insurance rates as well due to crash results, safety, etc...? Again, you can get coverage, but some rides are more dangerous than others.

Bottom line: if you choose to make your ride exponentially more dangerous than others, then you should have to pay for that risk so others do not have to...this is fair for all...what issue do you have with this?

BoneCrusher you are too intelligent to honestly believe that Motorcycle insurance and riders live in some sort of vacuum. You ask why do cages care about motorcycle accidents? What happens when your 100M or 300M of coverage runs out after your motorcycle accident? Do you honestly think that someone who became permanently disabled in a motorcycle puts absolutely no burden in the rest of society??

You have tunnel vision on thus subject. You ask for others to remove emotion, but you fail to set your strongly held beliefs aside to look at the big picture.

I am simply using your same logic, but taking the issue further out on that slippery slope. So if that logic is good enough for your position, then surely it is good enough for mine?

Again, the difference you fail to see is that somewhere out there is a person or persons making the case to ban motorcycles for the good of society. They are making that argument as passionately as you, and they have the same facts to back them up. And like you, they are willing to impart their on idea of what is best for everyone else.

You still didn't answer the question on whether you would find it "reasonable" for a rider (helmet or non) to be 100% Liable for any long term injury they sustain.

I think it would be an absurd suggestion, for a non-rider to make. Just as I think your suggestion of 100% liability is not "reasonable" as you asked.

Look, you will never change your mind and will continue to push this. And you aren't going to change my mind.

I'm not arguing that a helmet will be safer in a crash. It certainly will be. Just as you would be safer and less costly to society behind the wheel of a car.

Have fun with this debate.

But since neither of us will change our minds, I have far better things to do while on vacation, heading to Durango, WITH a helmet on my head.

 

[bamaryder]

I would say 97% of the time I do not wear a brain bucket. Its going to hurt like hell if and when I fall off any way. Some say there so you can have an open casket:joke:

Please wear a helmet. I am an ICU nurse and lets just say the concrete and asphault are unforgiving. If you don't die from your injuries you might be alive and wish you weren't. Or you might be alive and end up with so many disabilities that someeone else will be dedicating their life to taking care of you because you are just a vegetable. I took care of a guy once, who had just gotten back from Iraq a week earlier and he was on his bike. Someone ran a light and hit him. He left the hospital awake and paralyzed, unable to talk, he is in his mid-twenties. Please reconsider not wearing a helmet.

 

[bamaryder]

Please wear a helmet. I am an ICU nurse and lets just say the concrete and asphault are unforgiving. If you don't die from your injuries you might be alive and wish you weren't. Or you might be alive and end up with so many disabilities that someeone else will be dedicating their life to taking care of you because you are just a vegetable. I took care of a guy once, who had just gotten back from Iraq a week earlier and he was on his bike. Someone ran a light and hit him. He left the hospital awake and paralyzed, unable to talk, he is in his mid-twenties. Please reconsider wearing a helmet.[/QUOTE
I know that it is your choice to wear or not to wear, just asking you to think about it.

 

[Bob Denman]

I think that we've "Jumped the Shark on this Thread" and are now merely :bdh:. :gaah:
Let's move on to something less polarizing; like shift points or fuel octane... :roflblack:

 

[Bytemi]

:shocked: Are we having fun yet?? :shocked:
Let's all relax for a minute and let the nerves settle down a bit...
Now... helmet usage; why do or why don't you wear one? (Let's hold back the judgement of others for right now;Please...)
I wear one and will always wear one for several reasons:
My folks spent a ton of money on an education for me; I don't want it leaking out into the roadway!
Even though I've already got a face "Made for Radio", I don't want things to get any worse!
I don't want my Missus becoming a "Meryy Widow" just yet; I'm not done making her miserable!
seriously...
I sell insurance, so I see the accident reports; Helmets seem to keep things from getting any worse than they already are when your World has just to :cus:. :yikes:
Helmet Laws???
Mulltiple issues are at play here.
Who has to take care of the biker who's in a long-term facility because he (or she) didn't feel that they had anything worth protecting between their ears?
If it's going to fall to the rest of us to foot the bill, (Increased health care premiums or taxes), then perhaps society does need to step in and set some guidelines. (Sorry!)
BUT...
If the biker in question can "fly or die" on their own without anybody else paying for the dance; I don't need helmet laws!
I'm off the soapbox new...

As a general rule Bob, if you say it, I agree with it. In this case I can't say that enough. I absolutely agree! I wear a helmet because my step father would not let me go out without one, plus a jacket and jeans, oh yes and gloves. He always told me he didn't care how hot it was, my brain and skin was more important than comfort. He always pointed to riders that were not geared properly and said that it is Natural Selection at work.

 

[Bob Denman]

You agree with my "Face made for radio" comment??? :shocked:

There are always going to be folks out there who don't like helmets, seat belts, daytime running lights, childproff safety caps, stupid warning messages. etc...
You can never save the whole World, so we should maybe just try to do the best that we can with those that we love... :thumbup:

 

[Bytemi]

OK, I have finally made it through all four pages of posts and here is what I have say.

One of the biggest problem in the US today as I see it, there is no more personal responsibility. A law has to passed for everything to protect you from yourself. All I have to say to that is:

Screw That!

I am an intelligent adult that is capable of making my own decisions. I don't need someone telling me that my 4 1/2 foot tall 7 year old needs to be in a booster seat, I work with people shorter than that and they don't require a booster seat. I seriously wonder how I ever made it to adulthood. I never sat in a car seat, my father smoked in the car with the windows rolled up, I was a latch key kid from Kindergarten forward, there were no helmet laws for a bike and trust me I took my spills on the bike.

The government is trying to control every piece of our lives in order to "keep us safe" and I feel it is my job to keep me safe and teach my kids right from wrong.

Not wearing a helmet puts you at greater risk of death or injury. Not wearing full gear puts you at greater risk of sever injury. If you choose not to do either, that is your choice, I won't judge you if you don't judge me. But either way, the government needs to step back and let personal responsibility redevelop in the American people.

Getting off my soap box now.

 

[boborgera]

I don't know why everyone got their :cus: in a up roar over helmets' there's more important things to worry about, Like the danger of the killer'.
32 Oz Soft drinks.hyea:

 

[flybuddy]

OK, I have finally made it through all four pages of posts and here is what I have say.

One of the biggest problem in the US today as I see it, there is no more personal responsibility. A law has to passed for everything to protect you from yourself. All I have to say to that is:

Screw That!

I am an intelligent adult that is capable of making my own decisions. I don't need someone telling me that my 4 1/2 foot tall 7 year old needs to be in a booster seat, I work with people shorter than that and they don't require a booster seat. I seriously wonder how I ever made it to adulthood. I never sat in a car seat, my father smoked in the car with the windows rolled up, I was a latch key kid from Kindergarten forward, there were no helmet laws for a bike and trust me I took my spills on the bike.

The government is trying to control every piece of our lives in order to "keep us safe" and I feel it is my job to keep me safe and teach my kids right from wrong.

Not wearing a helmet puts you at greater risk of death or injury. Not wearing full gear puts you at greater risk of sever injury. If you choose not to do either, that is your choice, I won't judge you if you don't judge me. But either way, the government needs to step back and let personal responsibility redevelop in the American people.

Getting off my soap box now.

Amen to that!! The folks in New Orleans, pre & post Katrina, who kept waiting for the government to tell them what to do or take care of them, learned a harsh lesson if they lived at all about personal responsibility.
Seems like majority of folks posting believe that helmets are a good thing but people should have a right to choose. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the classic conservative & liberal stances here. I'm at a loss though as to how the folks who absolutely insist that your personal choice be taken away here due to some obscure rationalization to the general good will probably agree with pro choice on abortion where there is obvious harm done to an innocent. Anti choice on guns, pro choice on drugs, etc. The following old joke sums it up:

An older man was walking along the beach in California when he came upon a very old lamp buried in the sand. He rubbed it and out came a very old genie. The man asked the genie if he would now get 3 wishes and the genie said "no, only one as I'm about to retire". The man said he was nearing retirement also and always wanted to visit Hawaii but he was afraid of planes and boats. "What I want for my wish is for you to build me a bridge to Hawaii" to which the genie replied; "I'm getting too old for this crap, can't you just wish for something else?" the man pondered for a while and said "OK, what I'd really like for my wish is to understand how liberals think". After a few seconds the genie said "would you like that bridge to be 2 lane or 4 lane?"

Now, that said, is this horse dead yet or do we still keep beating it??

 

[Bytemi]

I don't know why everyone got their :cus: in a up roar over helmets' there's more important things to worry about, Like the danger of the killer'.
32 Oz Soft drinks.hyea:

For the record I drink 7 24 Oz Diet Pepsi's in a day. I have one down, before 8:00 am. I am alive and kicking and not over weight. I am just saying not all people are the same.

 

[Robertsepolen]

I find it interesting that those of us who daily have to observe the results of not wearing a helmet advise that tou wear one.

Anybody else notice that or is it more fun discuss numbers?

Personally, I hope I never see any of you fellow ryders in the ER.

Be safe as you know how and enjoy the ride!

 

[shelbydave]

Why do some states NOT have helmet laws?

I don't think I can name a state that does NOT have a seat belt law today, however, there are some states which still don't have helmet laws. I wonder why that is? Is the motorcycle community more active in fighting such legislation, or are the lawmakers lacking the common sense that would tell them that both go hand in hand regarding the safety of motorists?
While I and my wife will ALWAYS wear helmets (If my spyder ever arrives ) :banghead: but I also feel that such laws DO infringe on our constitutional rights and freedoms. I can see states requiring people on their medical plans, or anyone on medicaid to wear a helmet, as it is their (our) nickel that pays for damages, While in the Air Force, I had to wear a seat belt or a helmet, and this was before most states adopted laws. I totally understood, because they were footing the bills if I was in an accident. I can also see Insurance companies requiring helmets / seatbelts to reduce their costs, but for a blanket state mandate, I don't agree. In reality, the insurance companies are the ones who push these laws. To what end? increased profits due to reduced claims payments... That is an area where the government has no business mandating. We all have a right to be responsible, or irresponsible, and should be expected to accept the penalties of such.
We are always passing legislation to defy Darwinism.

 

[Arr MiHardies]

An older man was walking along the beach in California when he came upon a very old lamp buried in the sand. He rubbed it and out came a very old genie. The man asked the genie if he would now get 3 wishes and the genie said "no, only one as I'm about to retire". The man said he was nearing retirement also and always wanted to visit Hawaii but he was afraid of planes and boats. "What I want for my wish is for you to build me a bridge to Hawaii" to which the genie replied; "I'm getting too old for this crap, can't you just wish for something else?" the man pondered for a while and said "OK, what I'd really like for my wish is to understand how liberals think". After a few seconds the genie said "would you like that bridge to be 2 lane or 4 lane?"

A smart man would have wished for more genies.

 

[retired1]

MY understanding was that a state did not need a "seat belt law" if they didn't mind losing federal highway funds.:dontknow:

 

[ARtraveler]

A lot of good information about another polarizing issue. Not much to say or add here. People are going to do what they want to do.

Whether or not you wear a helmet is ultimately up to you.

For me, I choose to wear a helmet always. You never know when it might come in handy. So far, in 47 years of riding, I have not had the need for a helmet--but who knows when that could change?