Oil Change Frequency

[dicko]

Does anyone know why the Spyder Oil change is at such a short interval?

Is it a hang-up of BRP because all their other Rotax powered vehicles (SeaDoo, SkiDoo, Quads etc.) run in extreme conditions?

Because of tighter manufacturing tolerances, higher quality materials and highly refined oils, cars have moved their servicing schedules from 4,000mi to 6,000mi and now to 9,000mi over the last 25 years or so. Some bikes are now moving from 4,000mi to 6,000mi intervals yet the Spyder is asking for 3,000mi. I'll still keep a check on the oil level, but I'm tempted to go for 4,000 - 4,500mi intervals given that where I live we don't get extreme daytime temperatures (50-85 F) or extreme humidity. Minimum overnight is about 35 F during winter with one or two frosts.

 

[SpyderMark]

Because of tighter manufacturing tolerances, higher quality materials and highly refined oils, cars have moved their servicing schedules from 4,000mi to 6,000mi and now to 9,000mi over the last 25 years or so.

First, it generally doesn't serve us well to compare our Sypder's engine with automobile engines. The Spyder shares its oil between the engine and transmission. The Spyder's transmission places a great deal more stress on the oil than an automotive engine making comparisons between the two invalid.

Second, several automobile manufacturers (most notably Toyota and Audi/Volkswagon) have recently begun revising optimistic oil change schedules for some of their newer products after engines in those models began dying prematurely. The deceased engines experienced a host of problems not the least of which included bearing failures. Most of the failures were traced back to serious sludge issues. Sludge forms as a result of several phenomena, but mostly from heat and detergents in the oil washing nasty stuff off internal engine parts. How can this be bad you ask? Well, these nasty particles are too small for the filter to catch, which is OK because they are also too small to cause any direct engine damage. They are, consequently, held in suspension by the oil, which eventually becomes too saturated with impurities to hold any more. When that happens, they begin settling back out of suspension -- and back on the engine's internal parts. When sludge forms in an engine's oil distribution pathway it may prevent the oil from doing its job of lubricating critical parts. That's bad.

Click HERE and HERE for good reading about oil sludge.

Bottom line: What's the easiest way to avoid sludge? How about a shorter oil change interval?

Some bikes are now moving from 4,000mi to 6,000mi intervals yet the Spyder is asking for 3,000mi.

Let's not forget the relative newness of the Spyder. Yes, the engine is a proven design, with years of service in other applications. But, the Spyder is rather unique in that the engine is tightly cowled, and it's pulling around a much larger vehicle which generates much drag on the highway.

My assumption would be BRP has set the oil change interval based on data gathered during the R&D phase. Laboratory testing of oil samples collected from prototypes can tell you a great deal about the kind of impurities in the oil and their cumulative effect on an oil's efficacy and durability.

It could very well be that BRP revises its recommended oil change schedule a few years down the road after more data accumlates from customer use. In the mean time, I would carefully consider all the possible ramifications of ignoring BRP's current recommendations in this area...

Regards,

Mark

 

[baxter2215]

:agree: Well said, spydermark

 

[NancysToy]

I agree with Mark, in that the common transmission adds stress to the oiling system. It is also a difficult component to protect with light weight oil. Think of the heavier oil in a manual transmission in a car. We should also consider the rigors of a wet clutch, and the contaminants it adds to the oil.

I wouldn't assume that BRP did a lot of thinking or testing on the oil change intervals. Maybe they did, but 3,000 miles is an old standard, and could have just as easily been a fall back position. Better to go with the proven article than chance major failures which would cost a great deal of money, and damage the manufacturers reputation.
-Scotty

The Spyder engine is subjected to a great deal of heat, from the limitations of the cooling system, and from the enclosed bodywork. It has a common transmission, light oil, and a wet clutch. I, for one, am not about to chance damage, when an oil change is relatively cheap. Even at $200, an oil change costs only 1.25% of what the Spyder cost. That is a pretty decent return on my dollar, as far as I am concerned. I'll stick with the factory intervals.

 

[johnboyjohn.pretious]

Many years ago when starting out in the enginering trade I asked an old timer why did oil have to be changed so often in an engine. His reply was very simple. Boy, oil is cheaper to change than bearings!!! I know now he was right...

 

[NancysToy]

Many years ago when starting out in the enginering trade I asked an old timer why did oil have to be changed so often in an engine. His reply was very simple. Boy, oil is cheaper to change than bearings!!! I know now he was right...

My old man, who was a master mechanic, said exactly the same thing to me. Thanks for the memory!
-Scotty

 

[dicko]

Thank you gentlemen for a most informative reply. I will stick to the regular schedule. The addition of the gear box and the fact that a bike revs harder that a car was always going to make some difference. Got the oil. A friend organized a bulk-buy at a significant discount from a local retailer of http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/6179_Power1_GPS _465159_2007_08.pdf . I bought it initially for my Yamaha XV1600 and GSXR750 but it will suit the Sypder as well.

 

[SpyderMark]

I wouldn't assume that BRP did a lot of thinking or testing on the oil change intervals. Maybe they did, but 3,000 miles is an old standard, and could have just as easily been a fall back position. Better to go with the proven article than chance major failures which would cost a great deal of money, and damage the manufacturers reputation.

Yup, you could very well be right Scotty -- we've all heard 3,000 miles between changes for YEARS. BRP could very well have avoided testing and simply slapped a "safe" number in the manual.

Good catch,

Mark

 

[NancysToy]

Yup, you could very well be right Scotty -- we've all heard 3,000 miles between changes for YEARS. BRP could very well have avoided testing and simply slapped a "safe" number in the manual.

Good catch,

Mark

I suspect that is the case with most manufacturers. If they researched it, we would see one model with 2,500 miles, another with 3,750, etc. Personally, I like the computer in my wife's HHR that figures it out as you drive, depending on how the vehicle is driven. We still change it at a fraction of what the computer says, and never go more than 5,000 miles, but it is a very logical approach. Few people realize that stop and go city driving is considered "hard service".

I might add that on all the motorcycles I actually change the oil seasonally, for storage, no matter what. I also stick to the manufacturer's recommendation. I don't count the seasonal changes, and start over, because it is too difficult to keep track of the mileage on this fleet. Maybe that's not green, but it is the conservative approach to making sure the engine survives. When you are riding and driving machinery that is up to 50-75 years old, you take every bit of caution you can to save the engine for posterity.
-Scotty

 

[Putt-Putt]

I change my oil every 3,000 in everything I own, always have.
But I do wounder why when I used the BRP oil the Spyder used oil and quite a bit. Had to add oil twice between oil changes. Since switching to Shell Rotella 5/40 no more oil loss.
:dontknow:

 

[SpyderRider2492]

I change my oil every 3,000 in everything I own, always have.
But I do wounder why when I used the BRP oil the Spyder used oil and quite a bit. Had to add oil twice between oil changes. Since switching to Shell Rotella 5/40 no more oil loss.
:dontknow:

I saw the Shell Rotella in Wally World today and was wondering if this is compatible with the Spyder ? I was amazed at the cost of the BRP oil at over $11.00 a quart, that seemed toooo much and the Rotella was around $18.00 per gallon if I remember right. I will be ready to do the 3000 soon and want to ask if any others have used this brand of oil as well.

Barry B. PE 2492 silver/black.:dontknow:

 

[Putt-Putt]

Several people use the Shell Rotella synthetic 5/40. What everyone says it is compatible. I have no problems with it. And i also use it in my BRP Outlander 800 whitch also uses the BRP 5/40 has worked great.

 

[SpyderMark]

Thank's you help make up my mind. I will go to 5,000 miles. My goldwing calls for oil change every 8,000 miles it shares the gear box.

What oil temp does your Goldwing maintain compared to your Spyder? What's the highest temp the oil sees inside the engine? Different engines distribute oil to different areas depending on the whether the oil is also serving engine cooling duties. How much more oil does your Goldwing keep in the sump? Are the specific shear forces the oil experiences different between the two machines? Different kinds of gears put different stresses on the oil. How "dirty" is the engine in your Goldwing compared to your Spyder? Some engines pick up a great deal more "grunge" in the oil than others. All of these factors (and more) affect how quickly the oil deteriorates in an engine. If you can't answer these questions it might not serve you well to make comparisons between your Goldwing and your Spyder.

Also, if you're gonna take the risk of damaging your machine by flouting the manufacturer's recommendations, you might consider not doing it so publicly. You never know who is reading -- and saving for future reference -- your posts...

Regards,

Mark

 

[ataDude]

Two key words in your reply your which is my machine. And recommendations.You can't answer these question are i'm sure you would have.:hun: Last time I looked I was in the USA and can say what I please with out you telling what to post.

Good grief... Mark was just trying to give advice... good advice, at that IMHO....things to consider... particularly about posting on the net. The information you (anyone) post stays in the ether world permanently and is indexed and cross-referenced by all of the search engines.

For example, Google "gvcntx" and see what you get...

This is the type of response I haven't seen on this forum before and I hope it doesn't grow, infect and destroy.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do...

 

[SpyderMark]

You can't answer these question are i'm sure you would have.:hun:

Since I intend to follow the manufacturer's recommendations, I have no NEED to...

Last time I looked I was in the USA and can say what I please with out you telling what to post.

You are correct sir, you certainly may post whatever you like! Somehow you inferred I was "telling you what to post." I assure you, nothing could be further from the truth.:thumbup:

To clarify, I've heard rumors and stories of denied insurance and warranty claims based on information gathered by investigators from public forums like this one. It seems reasonable to me that a claim by an individual he or she is arbitrarily modifying a manufacturer's maintenance recommendations might certainly be used as grounds for denial of warranty coverage. I suggested (or thought I did) you consider NOT posting your intentions in such matters publicly. Perhaps I should have been less circumspect. At any rate, I apologize for any confusion...

I honestly felt the tenor of my post was that of a friendly suggestion; I'm sorry you took it otherwise.


Regards,

Mark

 

[NancysToy]

To clarify, I've heard rumors and stories of denied insurance and warranty claims based on information gathered by investigators from public forums like this one. It seems reasonable to me that a claim by an individual he or she is arbitrarily modifying a manufacturer's maintenance recommendations might certainly be used as grounds for denial of warranty coverage. I suggested (or thought I did) you consider NOT posting your intentions in such matters publicly. Perhaps I should have been less circumspect. At any rate, I apologize for any confusion...

I have to agree that going so public on such a thing, is sticking one's neck out. It can be tough enough to get a manufacturer to honor engine warranty claims if you merely change your own oil. Most folks don't document it adequately, saving receipts, etc. Heck, if you buy the oil in case lots, you don't even have a closely dated receipt for the second and possibly the third change. At very least, you are put on the defensive. IMO telling the world outright means sticking your neck out. It would make me uncomfortable. We can all do maintenance any way we please, but I wouldn't flaunt it while my machine was under warranty. Now we all have to be sworn to secrecy.
-Scotty

 

[Roadkill]

feather plucking

+Sticking one's neck out is fine as long as your leatherneck blunts the axe.

I'll wind up doubling my intervals using pure synthetic AMSOIL with EAoM filtration, comfortable with the AMSOIL warranty backing me.

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1363.pdf
http://www.amsoil.com/dealer/lit/french/g1363F.pdf
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf

That's Roadkill, two ells. (You know, just in case someone's saving my posts for future reference...)

Ride on.
Roadkill

 

[Spyderman62]

Well....since all the experts are here tonight lets see how they answer this question - now that we have opened Pandoras Box so to speak. I have been dealing/selling oil lubricants for several years, and with small exception, there is a myth/misconception I would like for us to ponder. So....considering that our Spyders use the same oil for the transmission and engine, there becomes a major difference between automotive oil, and motorcycle oil. Anyone want to guess that difference? I'll tell you. It is in the contents. You have to have the ability for an oil to lubricate, remove heat, and clean an engine, but in a motorcycle, it also has to have properties to allow for clutch components to not slip while you are driving, plus the oil needs the ability to protect the engine and mostly the transmission, against the "shear" forces applied to the oil from the gears etc. These special additives are NOT found in automotive oils because they are not needed. How then, can Shell Rotella T or any other brand of NON motorcycle rated oil, be of any value without those friction modifiers that are essential to an oil rated for motorcycles? I am also concerned about the oil used by and manufactured for BRP. There are many high quality oils out there, I wonder how their stuff compares, when put to the 4 ball test or other oil quality tests. Ok I have rambled enough.

 

[bjt]

Well....since all the experts are here tonight lets see how they answer this question - now that we have opened Pandoras Box so to speak. I have been dealing/selling oil lubricants for several years, and with small exception, there is a myth/misconception I would like for us to ponder. So....considering that our Spyders use the same oil for the transmission and engine, there becomes a major difference between automotive oil, and motorcycle oil. Anyone want to guess that difference? I'll tell you. It is in the contents. You have to have the ability for an oil to lubricate, remove heat, and clean an engine, but in a motorcycle, it also has to have properties to allow for clutch components to not slip while you are driving, plus the oil needs the ability to protect the engine and mostly the transmission, against the "shear" forces applied to the oil from the gears etc. These special additives are NOT found in automotive oils because they are not needed. How then, can Shell Rotella T or any other brand of NON motorcycle rated oil, be of any value without those friction modifiers that are essential to an oil rated for motorcycles? I am also concerned about the oil used by and manufactured for BRP. There are many high quality oils out there, I wonder how their stuff compares, when put to the 4 ball test or other oil quality tests. Ok I have rambled enough.

Based on your experiance, what oil would you recommend?

 

[BAZMAN]

OIL CHANGE

I DID MY 1ST OIL CHANGE AT 1000 MILES. I USED THE BRP OIL, THATS WHAT MY DEALER SUGGESTED. THE OIL WAS REALLY DARK. MY NEXT CHANGE WILL BE AT 4000 MILES. I AM GOING TO TRY AMSOIL AS I HAVE ALWAYS HAD GOOD LUCK WITH THEIR PRODUCTS. THEY CLAIM THAT YOU CAN GO TWICE AS LONG BETWEEN CHANGES WITH THEIR OIL, BUT I THINK 6000 MILES IS TOO LONG WITH THE SPYDER, BECAUSE OF THE HIGH RPMS AND THE ENGINE RUNNING HOTTER. AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE I LOOKED AT THE SHELL 5W40 SYNTHETIC AT WALLY WORLD. I REPEAT!!! NOWHERE ON THE CONTAINER DOES IT SAY IT CAN BE USED IN A MOTORCYCLE. AFTER LAMONT CHANGED OUT THE SHELL OIL TO "MOTORCYCLE OIL", PART OF HIS CLUTCH PROBLEM WENT AWAY.
IF YOU WANT CHEAPER SYNTHETIC MOTORCYCLE OIL, WALLY WORLD SELLS MOBIL 1 "MOTORCYCLE OIL" FOR ABOUT $8.70 A QUART.
ALSO LAMONT HOW ABOUT AN UP DATE ON YOUR CLUTCH.!!!