Check your Ball Joints!!

[bill pitman]

Let me explain:
Our Spyder is a 2009 SM5 purchased in May of 2010.

Since early this year I've noticed a vibration/or shaking of the whole "console" and some vibration in the handlebars. Ride-on had been added , on a nice day ,I believe , in March. No, I didn't have the tires balanced beforehand. Who does! Well, Ride-On didn't fix my vibration problem.

So, June rolls around, I've got Elka's all the way around , a new Madstad windshield, you know, the ones that are really fun to get adjusted just right.... And my vibration issue. The trip to TN and NC is a couple of weeks away.
I decide,OK let's do it. I go to our local alignment/balance guru (Cole's Garage in Hainesville,NJ). We demount the tires(to rotate), I clean out the gooey Ride-On ,remount for side to side rotation, dynamic balance and leave with 2 balanced rim/tires. The long and short of it.... somewhat better ,but not good enough. What actually happened was, instead of a vibration at 53-55mph, it moved up a little(somewhere in the 60's)
Now, I do want to say, I did ,in fact, check out the suspension components in the front end and the mounting of the console prior to the above procedure.
Good trip to TN and NC ,including Kitty Hawk, Bay Bridge/Tunnel, put around 2000 miles on ,in the 8 days we were gone. AND always trying to find that sweet spot with no vibration.
So, I'm not a happy camper at this point in time. Gee, maybe the Madstad is causing the problem, change back to the original shield, same problem.

OK, let's revisit the suspension components- nothing bent, shocks/bushings fine, tie rods fine and tight,A-arm-bushings and sleeves seem OK.
I put the front of the Spyder up on jack stands. BALL JOINTS- I put a hand on each side of the left tire(at the top)and move side to side(with some force), there's play, a fair amount too. I do the other side , some play there too, slightly less than the left side. I check the bottom ball joints and don't feel any play.
9200 miles on this Spyder and at least 2 bad ball joints- how is this possible, quality checks lacking, inferior materials.
Could this have any bearing on my vibration issues? I did a search and found some other's have had problems also.

So I call my dealer, Jason says ,bring it in,leave it,and we'll look at it. I'm thinking, why can't I take it up there, we all look at it ,decide what's needed, parts get ordered and I drive home while parts are being gotten.
Maybe I'm wrong ,but that would seem a logical way to go about it.

Looking for technical help on this.
Thanks in advance.
CHECK YOUR BALL JOINTS.

Bill Pitman

 

[boborgera]

So I call my dealer, Jason says ,bring it in,leave it,and we'll look at it. I'm thinking, why can't I take it up there, we all look at it ,decide what's needed, parts get ordered and I drive home while parts are being gotten.
Maybe I'm wrong ,but that would seem a logical way to go about it.

Looking for technical help on this.
Thanks in advance.
CHECK YOUR BALL JOINTS.

Bill Pitman

:dontknow:
I got the feeling that Rusty's got too big and lost that do it right away service that got them that big, Also the Wait for parts from BRP is not making them many friends amongst their customers.
Me included.

 

[Firefly]

Pretty sure the service manual says to grab the tire on the top and bottom and check for play moving along the vertical plane-- not the horizontal.

Really shouldn't be bad at 10,000 miles--- but could be.

I have this problem too-- but only when I put my 6 spoke rims on---- so I don't run those anymore--- might be balance--- bent rim, etc....

What rims are you running? got another set to try out?

 

[docdoru]

I have this problem too-- but only when I put my 6 spoke rims on---- so I don't run those anymore--- might be balance--- bent rim, etc....

:agree: 6 spokes rims much heavier. nojoke

 

[Raptor]

Pretty sure the service manual says to grab the tire on the top and bottom and check for play moving along the vertical plane-- not the horizontal.

Really shouldn't be bad at 10,000 miles--- but could be.

I have this problem too-- but only when I put my 6 spoke rims on---- so I don't run those anymore--- might be balance--- bent rim, etc....

What rims are you running? got another set to try out?

:agree: 6 spokes rims much heavier. nojoke

HMMM, interesting point about the wheels, guys. I have suspected that something maybe amiss with the right wheel on Phantom 14 as well. I am starting to see the unusual tread wear on the inside of the right tire again. Not as bad as the first set, but it is happening again. I started to look at the wheel and noticed a significant number of weights that were used to balance that wheel and it made me suspicious.

Having said that, I am not ruling out the ball joints either. They are not very stout, to say the least, but I am reserving judgement right now as to whether or not they are root cause. I reckon I should give them the ol' pull test and see what gives (or doesn't give!). At this point I am feeling some vibration, but not much more apart from the usual "buzziness" that the machine has always had.

 

[Motavar]

hmm..I have a slight vibration that showed up on my Phantom recently (4200 miles on her now since November).

While I doubt this is causing my issue..I may just take a peek at those ball joints this weekend. Man, I'm suprised you would see failure on yours with only 10k.

 

[GeoffCee]

Since early this year I've noticed a vibration/or shaking of the whole "console" and some vibration in the handlebars. Ride-on had been added , on a nice day ,I believe , in March. No, I didn't have the tires balanced beforehand. Who does! Well, Ride-On didn't fix my vibration problem.

For Ride-On to fix an imbalance in your wheel a sufficient weight of the goo would need to be added to the tire. But we measure Ride-On in fluid ounces and add an amount according to a tire's size, we don't consider how much is going in there by weight.

If you're lucky Ride-On may weigh enough to pool at the lightest part of the tire and correct an imbalance. Or there may not be a sufficient weight of the stuff to do this. Any lesser weight of Ride-On would leave an imbalance and some vibration in place. Isn't this is what you experienced?

Is my thinking OK on this, or have I overlooked something? :dontknow::hun:

 

[Questions]

I have a vibration on mine between 4500 and 5500 Rpm, feels like a wheel bearing in the rear, I put black phantom wheels on at 50 miles and I have had the vibration ever since . I going to the dealer for my 3000 mile service I am anxious to hear what they think is the problem.

 

[bill pitman]

Pretty sure the service manual says to grab the tire on the top and bottom and check for play moving along the vertical plane-- not the horizontal.

Really shouldn't be bad at 10,000 miles--- but could be.

I have this problem too-- but only when I put my 6 spoke rims on---- so I don't run those anymore--- might be balance--- bent rim, etc....

What rims are you running? got another set to try out?

"grab the tire on the top and bottom"- This is for checking the wheel bearing, however there is a note which follows that paragraph which states something like" make sure ball joints are tight before......

Stock 3 spoke rims, and no I don't have another set to try.

Like a "dog with a bone" , last night I did a little more investigating.
On the left side(most play), I can grab the A-arm right at the area by the ball joint, and lift up and down, and actually SEE the movement. So even if this isn't the cause of my "speed sensitive" vibration problem, it still shouldn't be.
I also decide to check out the wheel bearing. I actually decided to check because I had taken a quick 10-15 min ride and when home I felt the hub nut and it was warm(both sides). Removed the tire, brake caliper(I have another question concerning the operation,since it's not a "sliding caliper style-later maybe), brake disc,and sensor disk. I don't have a fish scale, but I would say it takes maybe 2-3 lbs of force to start the hub rotating and it feels a little"notchy" when turning. There is no play. I don't know the specifics of these wheel bearings: are they needle or double row ball or what. I do know they are not like the "old style" taper bearings ,where you could "adjust the hub nut" to increase or reduce any play.
The service manual goes into detail on how to install a new wheel bearing into the knuckle- freeze bearing, heat knuckle. Makes sense, in that less stress would be incurred on the bearing as it's pressed into the knuckle. My one question , once the bearing and knuckle are mated, why wouldn't it be wise to also then freeze the hub assembly which might help in putting that assembly together. Especially since the manual STRESSES that the "hub and bearing be perfectly aligned or wheel bearing will be damaged."

So do you suppose the factory uses this method of assembly(Lamont,please find this out while your up there!)
And do you suppose there's any chance a dealer does it the proper way?
See that's the thing of it, when I do something I have "all the time in the world" to accomplish my task. At dealer, maybe the tech is paid by "job completed" vs salary. I don't know just how this works.

I'm done for now, looking for comments. I'll come back to the question about brake calipers at a later date!

Bill Pitman

 

[chris56]

had only few vibrations with the soft 2010 shocks - now with the 2011 shocks (RT) they where very strong (45mls - 50mls/hour) ..
they adjusted ?? the wheel bearings - its better now - but the problem is not away.. (9400 mls - RT)
so everyone with this problem should balance the frontwheels ..

 

[Questions]

I'm with you scionxb, kinda missing my road king a little bit!!

 

[bill pitman]

Ride-on

For Ride-On to fix an imbalance in your wheel a sufficient weight of the goo would need to be added to the tire. But we measure Ride-On in fluid ounces and add an amount according to a tire's size, we don't consider how much is going in there by weight.

If you're lucky Ride-On may weigh enough to pool at the lightest part of the tire and correct an imbalance. Or there may not be a sufficient weight of the stuff to do this. Any lesser weight of Ride-On would leave an imbalance and some vibration in place. Isn't this is what you experienced?

Is my thinking OK on this, or have I overlooked something? :dontknow::hun:

When Ride-on was in my front tires, I had put 13 oz. (fluid) in each tire. I'm fairly sure that 13 fl oz. would have a mass weight of at least 4-6 oz!? A pure guess on my part. Now, after the goop was cleaned out, tires rotated, and spun balanced, right tire has 1 1/4oz of weight and left tire has 3/4 oz.
Still digging for answers.
Bill

 

[bill pitman]

Update

"grab the tire on the top and bottom"- This is for checking the wheel bearing, however there is a note which follows that paragraph which states something like" make sure ball joints are tight before......

Stock 3 spoke rims, and no I don't have another set to try.

Like a "dog with a bone" , last night I did a little more investigating.
On the left side(most play), I can grab the A-arm right at the area by the ball joint, and lift up and down, and actually SEE the movement. So even if this isn't the cause of my "speed sensitive" vibration problem, it still shouldn't be.
I also decide to check out the wheel bearing. I actually decided to check because I had taken a quick 10-15 min ride and when home I felt the hub nut and it was warm(both sides). Removed the tire, brake caliper(I have another question concerning the operation,since it's not a "sliding caliper style-later maybe), brake disc,and sensor disk. I don't have a fish scale, but I would say it takes maybe 2-3 lbs of force to start the hub rotating and it feels a little"notchy" when turning. There is no play. I don't know the specifics of these wheel bearings: are they needle or double row ball or what. I do know they are not like the "old style" taper bearings ,where you could "adjust the hub nut" to increase or reduce any play.
The service manual goes into detail on how to install a new wheel bearing into the knuckle- freeze bearing, heat knuckle. Makes sense, in that less stress would be incurred on the bearing as it's pressed into the knuckle. My one question , once the bearing and knuckle are mated, why wouldn't it be wise to also then freeze the hub assembly which might help in putting that assembly together. Especially since the manual STRESSES that the "hub and bearing be perfectly aligned or wheel bearing will be damaged."

So do you suppose the factory uses this method of assembly(Lamont,please find this out while your up there!)
And do you suppose there's any chance a dealer does it the proper way?
See that's the thing of it, when I do something I have "all the time in the world" to accomplish my task. At dealer, maybe the tech is paid by "job completed" vs salary. I don't know just how this works.

I'm done for now, looking for comments. I'll come back to the question about brake calipers at a later date!

Bill Pitman

So I trust everyone is having a great holiday weekend. Here in the Northeast it IS beautiful.
I had decided that I would wait till this coming Tuesday to drop off the Spyder. Why lose 4 days of possible riding time?
I rode up to Rusty Palmer's to tell them this and buy some supplies. I get there and park around back where service is located. Off the Spyder and whose standing within 20 feet, but none other than Rusty himself. Now I've known Rusty since the '70's ,when I had bought a Honda CB400F cafe style bike. Now he might know/recognize me but than again maybe not. Sorry, I'm going off track...
He asks me "how do ya like it...". I tell him I love it, some minor issues, but this vibration issue's got me going. I show him my ball joint issue, he graps the top A-arm and sees the movement. Says "that's not right" and goes into the service dept. A minute or two later, Jason(service manager) and David(general manager) & Rusty come back out. ( Now I didn't go up to the dealer to discuss my situation , but I think I'm fortunate in that Rusty happened to be where he was when I came in! I do know he is usually onsite somewhere.)
So we look at and discuss my issue and Rusty says something to the effect"get the parts and fix it, it's not right". I mention warranty and basically Rusty says"if BRP has an issue ,I'll get on the phone with them." Now I know this could be for my benefit and Rusty might still be a salesman, but I appreciated what had transpired.
So as it stands now: David wrote up a service ticket, he will order 2 ball joints and 2 wheel bearings. And now I take the Spyder back, WHEN THE PARTS COME IN.
Praise this day. :2thumbs:

Bill

 

[COOLMACHINE]

Nice to hear.

Now that's the kind of "GOOD" customer service we are talking about here!
It's not rocket science!!!! Take care of a customer that way and you will have a repeat customer.

 

[bill pitman]

"Like a dog with a bone!

Been doing some research- Hunter Road Force GSP9700 Wheel Balancer
Very interesting.
So on the Spyder , would the mounting of the front wheels to the hub be, "hub-centric" or "lug-centric"? I've had the wheels off numerous times, but can't remember, does the rim hole "center on the Hub" or does the rim "center based on the 3-lugs"? I'll find out tomorrow morning, as the wheels are coming off and going for some additional testing. LIKE A DOG WITH A BONE!!

bill

 

[NancysToy]

Been doing some research- Hunter Road Force GSP9700 Wheel Balancer
Very interesting.
So on the Spyder , would the mounting of the front wheels to the hub be, "hub-centric" or "lug-centric"? I've had the wheels off numerous times, but can't remember, does the rim hole "center on the Hub" or does the rim "center based on the 3-lugs"? I'll find out tomorrow morning, as the wheels are coming off and going for some additional testing. LIKE A DOG WITH A BONE!!

bill

Spyder wheels are lug-centric.