Harley to be Built in India

[Firefly]

This has been the problem with the U.S. economy for years. If one or two small companies design a product in the U.S. and have it all assembled in countries with cheap labour for export back to the U.S., not such a big deal. When Hundreds of U.S. companies do this to keep their shareholders happy with bigger profits then it is a disaster. It comes right down to corporate greed. When a country loses its manufacturing base its in big trouble. I think things have moved way to far now though to repair the damage. One does not have to look at India though ... just to Mexico.
When a huge symbol of U.S. pride and history like HD goes down this road, well, its just too bad.
In my opinion, what HD needs to do is move into the sport bike market. Continue to build the Vtwin but make a decent 4 cylinder sportbike. Build their own engine from scratch. There is a whole North American market that they choose to ignore because they continue to be in the Vtwin cruiser market. In my opinion also, they have way too many models of bikes that tend to duplicate each other.

Agree on the sport-bike idea--- but they had a perfect line they could have really pushed--- Buell--- but they decided to dump the line.

Why they haven't moved the superior V-rod engine technology into other bike models is beyond me.

HD makes their profit from items made in China--- T-shirts and HD trinkets --- guess it won't matter once the bikes are made elsewhere too.

Honda has recently moved production lines back to Japan--- of course they are a Japanese (as opposed to 'jap') company.

 

[Firefly]

I don't think differences, or people embracing their race/ethnicity is what is pulling this country apart. Unfortunately, the history of our country (despite all the truly great things we have done) illustrates that we have not treated all Americans equally. Americans of Indian descent and Japanese descent had all legal rights and citizenship stripped by a racist supreme court, Jewish Americans were denied access to medical schools and ivy league universities, African-Americans were segregated, Japanese Americans were interned during WWII, Mexican Americans get pulled over in AZ and asked for proof of citizenship, etc. These things didn't happen hundreds of years ago, and there is overwhelming research that clearly illustrates the impact of these 'past sins' on people and communities today. Telling people to get over the past is like telling my family who lives in New York to get over 9/11. It seems hypocritical on one hand to tell people that we are all Americans (or just get out), and then on the other hand clearly treat people differently--personally and legally--based on their heritage. People who have historically been told that they are not 'real Americans' certainly have the right to claim their status as hyphenated Americans.

:agree:

The only 'real' Americans that would have a right to tell others to 'get out' would be NATIVE Americans.

One thing it seems that is still being manufactured in abundance in the US is ignorance.

 

[Magic Man]

If you read the full article, they mention that India has a high import tariff on completely assembled vehicles. Here in my town we had the same kind of thing happen with Clark Equipment... but WE had the import tariffs on fully assembled forklifts --- so they would just ship them in from Japan without the forks installed and thus got around the tariff.

WOW!!!!! Trying to get around govt. taxes. What a concept.!!!!

100% the reason to avoid the tarriff!

These tarriffs do nothing for the customer over there and nothing for the US, except raise the price of the bikes and go right in India's Govt. pocketbook.

This shipping as parts can and will allow these bike to be more profitable for Harley and even to allow a lower street price for them there as well.

Ask some of our fellow members what a Spyder costs "down under" because of tarrifs and shipping. Lamont told me a friend of his told him crazy prices for an RT there.

If this will help HD sell more bikes there, and as a US company be able to stay in business than it''s not a bad thing. The final assembly is only a small part of the bikes total cost and all the parts and people who make them will still be coming from US workers.

If many of these countries did not hammer US products so hard with tarriffs I know more places could afford totally made in the US products.

But when Sportsters start costing 20K and more because of tarriffs, it really cuts down on sales big time.

Without avoiding these tarriffs it could mean all these engines, fenders, gas tanks, frames and other made in the US parts won't be getting used because the bikes are too hight priced and don't sell there.

That and this helps to avoid most chances of shipping damages, as shipping parts is easier from a damage stand point than whole bikes.

Also, you can fit many more bikes broken down as parts in a ship than whole bikes will because of crates all the lost air space around a bike when it is in a such crate. This too will make it much more cost effective from a shipping stand point.

If we can keep the US workers busy making the parts because of increased sales, or keep HD from having layoffs due to low profitability than I don't think it's a bad thing at all.

 

[sinkhole]

Yesterday I opened the box containing foglights for my RT. Looking at the bill of lading I realized that the only parts in the box made in the USA were two small clips used to secure the wires, and only a couple of bolts and nuts were even made in Canada. Everything else (the bulk) was manufactured overseas.

Let's face it, the main reasons that companies move manufacturing operations "overseas" are to increase profits, and lower costs. This is great for greedy consumers that want more and more, for less and less, but quickly this catches up with you. We manufacture far less that we did 50 years ago, and have become a "service" society... and we can't even do that very well. We've become so dependent on the rest of the world for our everyday goods, that in a real emergency we'd be hard pressed to muster the manufacturing abilities that we had during WWII. American companies and citizens have been putting the rest of the world to work, and then we wonder why so many Americans are unemployed. Now I don't want expensive goods any more than the rest of you do, but the average American needs to soon realize that there "aint no free ride".

 

[Smylinacha]

Many reasons why mfg in the USA has tanked. Some are:

-Taxes on corporations (depending where you live - for example... CT is one of the most unfriendly business states in the Nation)

-Energy costs to make the product - For example, CT is 2nd highest in the nation for energy costs

-Through the years as people have demanded higher salaries, it's increased the price of everything

- organized labor

Where I work I get calls from all over the country, offering us incentives to move to another state. Some of these incentives are amazing. Makes me want to leave CT in a heartbeat but I'm just a lowly office worker and only field the phone calls.

So I think alot of it depends on where the companies are located, what tax incentives they get from the local gov't there, if they have to shell out alot of $$$ for organized labor contracts, inflation, globalization, a whole boatload of factors. Main problem, America cannot sustain itself anymore.

 

[Roadkill]

KO #2

Well somebody is still building something here in te U.S.A...

+Wouldn't stay down, huh?

Well, then, Bob, knockdown number 2 is my 2656th Victory off the line, which still runs fine with over 200,000 miles.

Made in U.S.A. with more American content than H-D.

My dad used to box. Stay down, will ya'?

Ride on.
Roadkill
http://www.roadkillonline.net/imagedb_images/35_10319.JPG

 

[Magic Man]

that there "aint no free ride".

:agree::agree::agree:

Only problem is when a company tries to us US only labor and it's product is 2, 3 or even 5 times as much as an import item, unfortunatly many times that company soon goes out of business.

The stories I could tell you about consumers that have no loyalty and "jump ship" for even a buck or two.

As a people we have got to decide if we want to keep the US strong or keep those extra few bucks in our pockets?

Because as it stands now, there is just no way with US labor as high as it is, 100% US products will ever be able to keep up with overseas companies as long as the US consumer values low price over US made.

MM

 

[boborgera]

:agree::agree::agree:

Only problem is when a company tries to us US only labor and it's product is 2, 3 or even 5 times as much as an import item, unfortunatly many times that company soon goes out of business.

The stories I could tell you about consumers that have no loyalty and "jump ship" for even a buck or two.

As a people we have got to decide if we want to keep the US strong or keep those extra few bucks in our pockets?

Because as it stands now, there is just no way with US labor as high as it is, 100% US products will ever be able to keep up with overseas companies as long as the US consumer values low price over US made.

MM

:agree:Yery similar to the guy who complains that all the Mom and Pop
hardware stores are going out of business, then when that same guy needs more than one 50 cent nut/bolt go's,
to the big box store to save a buck.nojoke

 

[wyliec]

I value good product. That's why I buy from you, MM. :thumbup:

 

[spydee owner]

You can talk about high labour costs, but the bottom line is that good paying jobs are the ones that keep the money flowing. People in low paying jobs are not the ones out buying new appliances, furniture, non essential items like motorcycles and snowmobiles. The ratio between the CEO and the factory worker is way out of wack also. In the 50s and 60s this ratio was maybe 4:1. What is it now maybe a 1000:1? The U.S does have some good business success stories though. Look at Arctic Cat and Poaris industries. They both went through hard times and had their brush with Bankruptcy years ago. The thing is that they learned their lesson. Some other companies though still look for the governments to bail them out when they screw up.

 

[Smylinacha]

You can talk about high labour costs, but the bottom line is that good paying jobs are the ones that keep the money flowing. People in low paying jobs are not the ones out buying new appliances, furniture, non essential items like motorcycles and snowmobiles. The ratio between the CEO and the factory worker is way out of wack. In the 50s and 60s this ratio was maybe 4:1. What is it now maybe a 1000:1? The U.S does have some good business success stories though. Look at Arctic Cat and Poaris industries. They both went through hard times and had their brush with Bankruptcy years ago. The thing is that they learned their lesson. Some other companies though still look for the governments to bail them out when they screw up.

The ratio between the CEO and factory worker - well there is a huge difference. The ratio between the factory worker and the office worker - very big difference - factory worker makes DOUBLE what a mgr or supervisor on salary makes. All you gotta do is work some O.T. on the weekends and there you have it - double time. You can actually take time off during the week and if you work that one Sunday, you made up for the time off you took and THEN some. Guanteed raises are in most contracts - 3.5 to 4% EACH YEAR, that doesn't even count the COLA you get every year. In this economy salary workers aren't even seeing that. You don't even have to show any merit to get that raise if you are organized. Nada, zippo, zip. It's built right into the "contract". Now take a company with a huge factory that is ALL organized labor - see how that cost eats into it? Just one small example.

EDIT TO ADD: I am a highly skilled salary worker in my field, my reviews show this but I make a pitance compared to if my position was organized labor.

 

[Firefly]

Harley "dumped" Buell because it was a perennial money loser for them. It was/is a great bike, the typical HD demographics didn't support it, however. Perhaps it would have done better independently or paired with another Euro type brand.

The part of the V-Rod engine (called the Revolution, BTW) that is beyond you, is that while it makes great horsepower, it doesn't have much in the way of low end torque. A great engine for the lighter weight cruiser that it's currently in. A poor choice for the heavyweight tourers that anchor the line. The big bore and long stroke of the stock air cooled V-Twin produces a ton of torque, not many folks on 96" or 103" Twin Cams look for more power beyond intake and exhaust upgrades. The current Revolution engine in a 1000 pound bagger would produce far more frowns than smiles.......Certainly not a 'superior engine'..........

Harley makes their profits in a lot of places. New bike sales, parts, service, accessories, clothing, merchandise, and finance/insurance.

Please show us where you obtained your financial information that indicates HD's profits are fueled by Chinese trinkets and t-shirts.:dontknow: I just looked through my rather substantial collection, couldn't find a Chinese tag anywhere...........opcorn:

I clearly stated "superior V-rod engine technology".... not just dropping the engine from a V-rod into another bike. Water cooled engine technology is superior to air-cooled in most peoples eyes. Going to a water-cooled technology just makes sense. More HP out of a smaller, lighter power plant. Buell recognized this when they decided on a Rotax for their 1125R.

HD didn't try to market Buell well at all. Very sad to just kill that line off.

I've done work with HD stores for 20+ years and have access to all their marketing materials through HD HQ...not to mention having to contract photography of HD items for reproduction, and I can tell you that most of the items (shirts, collectibles, etc.) are NOT made in the US. Their big profit maker is clothing items -- check the tags-- Mexico, Taiwan, India, China, etc.....

 

[Firefly]

:agree:Yery similar to the guy who complains that all the Mom and Pop
hardware stores are going out of business, then when that same guy needs more than one 50 cent nut/bolt go's,
to the big box store to save a buck.nojoke

:agree:

Which is why I try to buy everything I can from our local hardware--- they can't just make it on the 4 screws you buy--- they need bigger sales too.:thumbup:

 

[Raptor]

1978 XLCR is the motorcycle you are thinking of, I think.

I was a volunteer firefighter around 20 years ago. We were called to a fire where a barn was burning. The owner had one of these parked in the remains of the barn. His father had given it to him.

HD was bought out by AMF in 1970 and owned it until sometime around 1981 when it was bought back by HD. It was a bad time for HD, which was dealing with the Japanese invasion, practically no quality control at the factory, and the oil embargo didn't help matters either. I was rather surprised they survived. We used to call these made by AMF "bowling machines" Those bikes were rather horrific, BUT, thanks to AMF, HD's are still here today.

You know this looks reeeeally close but I don't remember the wheels looking like that. It had a real classic look to it. This could have been it though simply with different wheels. My Brother-in-law at the time who owned the bike said it was kind of rare and to be very careful with it, which of course I was. He also had a couple of classic Indians; the ones with the suicide shifters! Those I did not ride. That HD was a great ride, I'll tell you that. Of course I was young and didn't know any better! All I knew was that I was havin a whole lot of fun! hyea:

 

[Raptor]

:agree:

Which is why I try to buy everything I can from our local hardware--- they can't just make it on the 4 screws you buy--- they need bigger sales too.:thumbup:

I'm with you there. I try my best to support the local economy any time I can. I only deal with the big corporations etc. if I have no other choice. I wanna say more but like Ms. Smylinacha I will respect the no politics rule and stop there! :spyder:

 

[Raptor]

They also need to think outside the box and quit trying to sell the Sportster to women! They need to make a touring model, lighter in weight, fairing, everything the roadglide has for women who aren't as big as a man that rides them. Sportbike would be nice also but you can buy a jap model for much less so I don't think they'd do it, unless they made the price competitive with the jap bikes. They made a nice trike but there is no way I'd pay that amount of money for it. So those drawings with their version of the "reverse trike" that are out on the net..... wonder how much those will cost if it ever comes to fruition. I bet it will be a $40K reverse trike. I don't think they will export the entire business to other countries though. If they do, it will be a huge mistake. Fine to build them for other people in other countries, but keep the home base here for Americans.

See, the thing is they don't need to nail us for 40K for the reverse trike. If they have to charge that much because of labor costs due to organized crime - err- labor - then we'll never see it. They know it won't sell for that much. So either they are being greedy or realistic. I'll let ypou decide which! :dontknow:

And BTW, my Wife 1spydercat1 has said the same thing about some Harley's built more to accomodate women for years. I think there is a bigger market there than they realize...

 

[NancysToy]

You know this looks reeeeally close but I don't remember the wheels looking like that. It had a real classic look to it. This could have been it though simply with different wheels. My Brother-in-law at the time who owned the bike said it was kind of rare and to be very careful with it, which of course I was. He also had a couple of classic Indians; the ones with the suicide shifters! Those I did not ride. That HD was a great ride, I'll tell you that. Of course I was young and didn't know any better! All I knew was that I was havin a whole lot of fun! hyea:

Classic Indians (or Harleys) don't have "suicide shifters" They have tank mounted hand shifters. You are probably thinking of a "suicide clutch". These cycles didn't have that, either, unless they were modified...which many were. The standard clutch was a heel-toe foot clutch, that held position unless you moved it. If modified to have a spring return, so you held it down and let it out like a car clutch, it was called a "suicide clutch". Not that difficult, once you are used to them, although some variations of this modification were tricky. BTW, the most difficult thing for me to get used to on my old Indian was the left-hand throttle, combined with the right-hand, twist-grip spark retard. :yikes:

 

[tweeder]

I'm not that much of a loyalist due to the cost of things. Now keep in mind that i'm young and don't understand economics but I do understand that I as well as others work hard for there money and need it to go farther. I think it's greed from the companies on behalf of the shareholders. I work in an aluminum smelter and I see first hand how profits are put before all else but they can't say that because of liabilities. But is see it even more when companies offer stuff on sale, not just 10% off or anything. I'm talking 50-70% off, and they are still turning a profit at that. That shows how much of a mark up some things are.

 

[boborgera]

I'm not that much of a loyalist due to the cost of things. Now keep in mind that i'm young and don't understand economics but I do understand that I as well as others work hard for there money and need it to go farther. I think it's greed from the companies on behalf of the shareholders. I work in an aluminum smelter and I see first hand how profits are put before all else but they can't say that because of liabilities. But is see it even more when companies offer stuff on sale, not just 10% off or anything. I'm talking 50-70% off, and they are still turning a profit at that. That shows how much of a mark up some things are.

Economics = you have 5 grand to invest in a company.
Company 1 sells their product at a almost cost.
Company 2 sells their product at larger profit.
Company 1 gives you a dividend of One percent on your investment.
Company 2 gives you a dividend of Five percent on your investment.
Which Company are you going to invest your money in??
Not saying it's right or wrong, but all companies need investment money.

.

 

[Bob Denman]

+Wouldn't stay down, huh?

Well, then, Bob, knockdown number 2 is my 2656th Victory off the line, which still runs fine with over 200,000 miles.

Made in U.S.A. with more American content than H-D.

My dad used to box. Stay down, will ya'?

Ride on.
Roadkill
http://www.roadkillonline.net/imagedb_images/35_10319.JPG

You're right... I DID completely forget about Victory... And I'm a big fan of Polaris too! (Rode 'em for years!) But a barstool powered by a 350 Chevy V-8 just says "American" in such a funky way! :roflblack:
You ain't that far from me... We should plan some rides...nojoke