Agree or Disagree

[NancysToy]

Perhaps I should clear up my thoughts. I agree with Lamont and several others, EFI, electronic ignition, and possibly ABS are keepers. That is why I said roll back 20 or so years, in 1985 I bought a new Dodge Shelby Charger that was fuel injected and turbocharged and it was as much fun as the Spyder. The main reason for purchase was I was being transfered to Germany and I wanted to keep up, on the Autobahn.
My concern is with electronic systems that need variable current flow and not simply on and off conditions, too many things can effect that flow. I also disagree with stability systems that take over drivers controls, even though there may be a half a dozen sensors providing data to the CPU it still does not have enough info, at least not what the driver/rider is seeing and feeling.
I find it interesting that I made the same post on a Valkyrie forum where the Bike of choice is much simpler without all the electronics and don't even have EFI, and most of them disagree with me however on this site where the bike of choice is full of electronics it seems the trend is toward agreement.

I did not worry about the technology when I learned to drive in a Ford Model A. I did not worry when we poured a load of 90% nitro into blown hemi sitting five feet in front of my face and went racing. I did not worry when I had a 1991 Dodge Colt with electronic fuel injection and an engine management system. I did not worry when we bought a Chevy HHR with electronic power steering and more computer than I have sitting on my desk. I do not worry now. There are times when I cuss more, though.

I tend to agree that things have gone too far, and certainly that there are far more things to go wrong now. For the most part I agree about vehicle stability systems (we have no SUV to be concerned about). I would not want my wife riding a Spyder without one, though. It may be far more stable than a standard trike, it may behave very well at lower speeds, but it has the ability to get her in over her head, strictly due to the design. Her choice was between the Spyder, a Hannigan conversion, and a sidecar rig, and we chose the Spyder because of the stability system, not in spite of it. I would worry myself sick if she had a sidecar or trike.

 

[woodz428]

I do not worry now.
I would worry myself sick if she had a sidecar or trike.

I don't worry either, maybe why my physical at 50 looked like the one at 27. Worry and dislike don't go hand in hand. I DO NOT like any mandate...manufacturer,govt. NONE. I should have the option to purchase something that does not have stuff I DON'T WANT. I should not be required to subsidize those that find it more "comforting". Why should I. Why should I pay for stuff I intend to remove, just because spreading the cost makes it cheaper for those feel safer? The Soviet Union didn't collapse, it picked up tents and moved here.
I have owned/ridden Trikes ( the old 45s) and hacks,and the machine let's you know the limits. I think it's easier to "get over your head" when you have a false sense of security...because of some techno crap.
I prefer people that can't operate equipment, not to. We have moved from vehicles being a piece of transportation to an extension of the living room. How long before DVD players become standard on bikes??
For every intended "safety" addition there is no noticeable drop in accidents. They way some people feel, you'd think we drive bumper cars.
The object, at least for me, is to get from point A to point B without some bozo making it "messy".
For those that love to be baby sat, we are heading down the path that will give you "comfort". For those that prefer to be your own master, I'll be offering a system removal within the next year. Looking at the shop manual it will likely be cheaper than an extended warranty. It will be like a REAL motorcycle, where you control the front and rear brakes separate and can crash if you are so declined.:roflblack:

 

[Way2Fast]

What concerns me the most about all the electronis gismos and computers that are appearing on the newer vehicles is what will probably happen as the vehicle ages. There are problems with many that are brand new. When the effects of the outdoor elements start to add up, how dependable will these computers be? They were designed to aid the driver and make up for poor operator control and stupidity but only do so when working properly. When the effects of corrosion, salt spray, constant temperature changes, age, etc come into play will they still do what they were designed to do? Maybe they will go haywire and add to the road dangers.

IMO, Fuel injection and electronic ignition are the only beneficial devices because they do what they were intended to do and if they suffer a breakdown they will not put the vehicle occupants at risk.

ABS is something that has been forced down our throats and taken for granted.. Try and find a car that doesn't have it these days. In many situations it can prevent skidding and loss of control, yet under certain conditions it will increase the chance of an accident. It's a proven fact that in dry conditions at slower speeds, nothing will stop a car quicker than locked wheels. In cases like this, ABS will prevent wheel lockup and greatly increase the distance needed to stop.

While vehicle computer's might cause issues, they probably pale by comparison to the dangers caused by "personal" electronic devices like cel phones, GPS devices, DVD players, and everything else drivers fiddle with while operating a motor vehicle. I wonder how long it will take before someone invents a device that will allow attaching Apples new i-pad to the steering wheel so that it will be easily accessable to the driver !!

These days the safest place to be is sitting at a desk behind a computer !!!LOL

 

[woodz428]

I wonder how long it will take before someone invents a device that will allow attaching Apples new i-pad to the steering wheel so that it will be easily accessable to the driver !!

These days the safest place to be is sitting at a desk behind a computer !!!LOL

Of course stupidity needs no push from electronics. In the 90s I used to work about 55 miles away during the Winter months. Always took the same Interstate.. and EVERY day, I would see the same State employee, driving a State( you and me) owned vehicle.....reading the newspaper while driving at interstate speeds. He is one of those that will fill the void in his skull with added electronic distractions. We as the employers of this pinhead pay for the car and the insurance that will be needed when he rearends soneone or worse.
In the city I moved from about 10 years ago, every single Police car was in the body shop at the same time. In the last few years several city employees, driving city cars with taxpayer supplied insurance, were caught DWI. Didn't lose their jobs or our car.
It seems that the separation of those that pay and those that PLAY, with the $$ of those that pay, is growing wider. Stupidity in every possible place, because it is rewarded.
I'm no Luddite, but technology for technologies sake is insane.

 

[Firefly]

Well-- for those that think they want a Spyder without the VSS - you can temporarily move the sensors and take a spin. I can tell you that without such a system - BRP would never be able to sell these on the market as there would be people crashing left and right. The Spyder will get downright squirrely without the VSS. On the Power Steering - I've ridden with and without and can tell you it's a MUCH nicer ride with it.

As far as ABS - I don't think most people understand the true genius behind ABS. The true benefit of ABS is that you can still steer while applying the brakes - something you cannot do with standard brakes fully applied. Here in Michigan we all learned to 'pump' the brakes to maintain control in skids and wet or icy conditions. The ABS simply takes care of this for us.

The technology in cars has reduced fatal accidents greatly. Crush zones, airbags, snap-away steering columns, shoulder harnesses, etc. are all examples of these technologies. No manufacturer in their right mind will sell cars without such features due to the litigious nature of the world we now live in. Just look at the anger and outrage over something as simple as a sticking gas pedal. 30 years ago this wouldn't have been something people got all bent out of shape over - of course back then people were more hands-on with their cars and I think would have been more aware of how their car really works--- thus popping into neutral would be perfectly natural.

I do agree the government can go too far in protecting us from ourselves. While I wear my seatbelt all the time - I think it should be my choice once I'm an adult. Ditto with helmets - no doubt wearing them is safer - but I sure would like the choice.

But on the other end I would support making texting, watching TV, surfing, etc. illegal while driving as those actions can affect others on the road. People don't pay enough attention to driving as it is without these extra distractions.

 

[Smylinacha]

Yeah I know - I miss my Wrangler I had before that.

My Charger goes fast and I love it for that but I am not a fan of computers in everything.

Your Charger is FULL of electronics.

 

[Smylinacha]

I do agree the government can go too far in protecting us from ourselves.

But on the other end I would support making texting, watching TV, surfing, etc. illegal while driving as those actions can affect others on the road. People don't pay enough attention to driving as it is without these extra distractions.

:agree:

 

[woodz428]

Well

I do agree the government can go too far in protecting us from ourselves. While I wear my seatbelt all the time - I think it should be my choice once I'm an adult. Ditto with helmets - no doubt wearing them is safer - but I sure would like the choice.

But on the other end I would support making texting, watching TV, surfing, etc. illegal while driving as those actions can affect others on the road. People don't pay enough attention to driving as it is without these extra distractions.

I completely agree with the first paragraph, but think that the second is a redundancy. There is a law regarding reckless driving, those would all fall into that IF they contribute to an incident. Making them illegal is just a fund raiser for the government and has little to do with safety. If it did those morons wouldn't get driver's license in the first place. IF they should kill someone because of it, that falls into manslaughter or again reckless homicide. If the govt. wants to make things safer they would actually make a drivers test mean something. As it is, it's just a "buy a car/truck/whatever" permit. Helps the manufacturers at the publics expense.

 

[NancysToy]

I completely agree with the first paragraph, but think that the second is a redundancy. There is a law regarding reckless driving, those would all fall into that IF they contribute to an incident. Making them illegal is just a fund raiser for the government and has little to do with safety. If it did those morons wouldn't get driver's license in the first place. IF they should kill someone because of it, that falls into manslaughter or again reckless homicide. If the govt. wants to make things safer they would actually make a drivers test mean something. As it is, it's just a "buy a car/truck/whatever" permit. Helps the manufacturers at the publics expense.

I don't subscribe to your philosophy in its entirety, but this paragraph did remind me of something. Someone (whom I've long forgotten) once said that almost all the laws necessary to protect people and property were made at least a hundred years ago, and everything since was merely justification to keep electing new legislators. Politics is a perpetual employment machine, it's sad to say.

 

[QuadManiac]

but I must also wonder how someone could allow their car to get up to 125 mph without killing the engine or dropping into neutral.

I wondered this, originally, when I first heard the story... facts that came out of it don't answer all of the questions - but, he was a long time CHP officer, in a rental Lexus with 3 additional family memebers in the car... no training or experience with the vehicle. It was a new one with the ON button instead of an ignition key, and I now learn that one had to push and hold it for more than 3 seconds to turn the engine off. I can understand how, especially with no training in the operation, and in the heat of the moment, this could cause problems trying to kill the engine in a panic situation. It was one of the family members, not the driver, that was on the cell phone with 911 operators towards the end of the ordeal.

I don't know why he couldn't put the car in neutral (I would certainly expect someone with his CHP experience to have tried), but let me ask all of us SE5 owners out there - how would WE put our Spyder in neutral in a panic situation? Answer? - WE CAN'T. We can't pull in the clutch... and we must downshift through first to get to neutral, AND the computer won't let us downshift if it will over-rev the engine (which IS, btw, my biggest complaint about the SE5 - I'd like a way to go straight to neutral). I posit the Lexus in question may have had electronic paddle shifters and would not allow downshifting to get into neutral at that speed? Of course, we have the kill switch... The Lexus didn't have that luxury. Perhaps it should?

This was in my town, so there was a lot of coverage. My heart goes out to those that he and his 3 family members left behind.

 

[Way2Fast]

I wondered this, originally, when I first heard the story... facts that came out of it don't answer all of the questions - but, he was a long time CHP officer, in a rental Lexus with 3 additional family memebers in the car... no training or experience with the vehicle. It was a new one with the ON button instead of an ignition key, and I now learn that one had to push and hold it for more than 3 seconds to turn the engine off. I can understand how, especially with no training in the operation, and in the heat of the moment, this could cause problems trying to kill the engine in a panic situation. It was one of the family members, not the driver, that was on the cell phone with 911 operators towards the end of the ordeal.

I don't know why he couldn't put the car in neutral (I would certainly expect someone with his CHP experience to have tried), but let me ask all of us SE5 owners out there - how would WE put our Spyder in neutral in a panic situation? Answer? - WE CAN'T. We can't pull in the clutch... and we must downshift through first to get to neutral, AND the computer won't let us downshift if it will over-rev the engine (which IS, btw, my biggest complaint about the SE5 - I'd like a way to go straight to neutral). I posit the Lexus in question may have had electronic paddle shifters and would not allow downshifting to get into neutral at that speed? Of course, we have the kill switch... The Lexus didn't have that luxury. Perhaps it should?

This was in my town, so there was a lot of coverage. My heart goes out to those that he and his 3 family members left behind.

You bring up some good points. People living in other parts of the country seem to have gotten an abbreviated description of the incident. When all the facts are presented it's easier to understand why the vehicle speed wasn't able to be controlled.

 

[boborgera]

Don't get it whats wrong with just stepping on the brakes?
That alone will slow you down if not stop you, then you can get your head together and put it in neutral.
Also if the gas pedal is sticking shouldn't it stay at the speed you were going and not accelerating?

 

[j45p3r]

Don't get it whats wrong with just stepping on the brakes?
That alone will slow you down if not stop you, then you can get your head together and put it in neutral.
Also if the gas pedal is sticking shouldn't it stay at the speed you were going and not accelerating?

Brakes, at least on a car, are not enough to over come an engine at full throttle.

 

[Tom in NM]

Yes AND No

Generally, I feel that electronics and computers that focus on the basics of vehicle performance ( efficiency, stability, performance, reliability, safety ) are plusses. Fuel injection, power steering, electronically assisted transmissions and Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS) are good examples. My Jeep also has a All Wheel Drive system that works magic on ice, water and loose sand and gravel that greatly improves handling and control. Headlight, windshield wiper, and tire pressure systems also can assist the driver in operating the vehicle.

I think the problems with electronics and systems seem to arise when they take over or supplant the operator's skill sets or distances them from the basic acts of managing and controlling the vehicle. Skills require training, practice and constant use - otherwise, we lose them - so besides losing control, we lose ability.

Here are some of the luxury and convenience electronics that I think are problems;

• Idiot Lights instead of gauges or specific readouts. They are "In-specfic" and hide the normal operating ranges of the vehicle ( pressures, temperatures, rates, fluid levels ). I belong to the school of "You Cannot Manage/Control What You Cannot Measure". And, I think the majority of people ignore them.
• CruiseControl (just set the speed and sit back and relax)
• Parking Systems (you may be able to get your car to park itself, but just try to park someone else's)
• Entertainment Accessories

As far as the Spyder goes - I could do without (electronic) power steering. There are probably mechanical steering systems that would balance the effort/control/reliability/cost equation better.

I would like to see a more intelligent dashboard display. Three bars for engine temp? What is the temperature? What is a good temperature? Is that Oil or Water?

A scrolling error code of "check engine"? Check it for what? Oil? Seals and gaskets? Water? Why not give a code and tell you what it is?

Limp Mode? Why? What is wrong? I have not had this, but when a high percentage of the reports here show that turning the Spyder off and then turning it back on "clears the problem" or replacing a light bulb removes it, well, that is :cus:. Dangerous :cus:, to me. Extremely poor programming or system implementation. You are given a problem, but no information to act on and no ability to "override" or manage it.

The Vehicle Stability System (VSS)? That works for me - it keeps the Spyder in its physical control and operational limits. I have only felt it a few times, but its activation was greatly appreciated.

I know gears, but am no gear-head. I know programming and systems (realtime and computer) and know their advantages of control/performance enhancement and their downsides of unintended consequences and complexity. At this point in my life, I would rather only rely on systems that are focused on performance and control and remove those that may be nice to have, but are debilitating assists.

Tom

 

[SpyderGirl]

:agree: Exactly my thoughts. You can't program common sense and good diriving skills into a vehicle.

 

[boborgera]

Brakes, at least on a car, are not enough to over come an engine at full throttle.

You'll be surprised how power full brakes are.
They might not get you to zero but they'll slow you down so you'll stop panicking and put it in neutral.

 

[jgwoods]

Brakes, at least on a car, are not enough to over come an engine at full throttle.

I disagree.
Brakes can overcome any car engine at full throttle.

I am curious as to how Toyota's fixing gas pedals is going to resolve the claim people make that they have no brakes when their car is "running away" on them.

 

[jgwoods]

As for what to do if your SE5 soemhow gets stuck at full throttle when there is no way to put it in neutral; Using the kill switch and leaving the ignition in the on position should leave us with the engine off, but all other features working- anti lock brakes, DPS, etc. so it should be fairly easy to coast to a halt.

I do wonder if that is the case- that all the systems continue to work when activating the kill switch at speed.
I may have to try that...

 

[boborgera]

I disagree.
Brakes can overcome any car engine at full throttle.

I am curious as to how Toyota's fixing gas pedals is going to resolve the claim people make that they have no brakes when their car is "running away" on them.

Probably people panic, forget there's a brake pedal and keep stomping the gas pedal to loosen it. Just like some Audi drives were doing a few years ago.

 

[j45p3r]

I disagree.
Brakes can overcome any car engine at full throttle.

I am curious as to how Toyota's fixing gas pedals is going to resolve the claim people make that they have no brakes when their car is "running away" on them.

Not always. C&D tested the Camry and from 100MPH and they were able to slow the car to 10MPH, but it would only be a matter of time IMO before the brakes heated up and the car would begin to accelerate again.