DPS roulette

[ataDude]

True , and some very unscientific research done by me shows that those with the new GPS (new design) have virtually zero problems after it is replaced also.

Wrong. Count me as one.

.

 

[BajaRon]

Here we go again...........opcorn:
I count 8 threads open discussing this same issue with the same people posting the same thing. :yikes:

We're lucky they aren't posting something different on each different thread! :roflblack:

 

[BajaRon]

Originally Posted by widowmaker2011
True , and some very unscientific research done by me shows that those with the new GPS (new design) have virtually zero problems after it is replaced also.

Wrong. Count me as one.

.

Are you absolutely sure you got the "New Design"?

Anyway, he did say "Virtually" = Almost Entirely or Nearly.

I guess you constitute the "Almost" or "Nearly" in this definition. So, at least to this point, his statement stands as correct.

 

[Big Arm]

New GOS . Perfect. If you go to your dealer and they ask what the GOS is or tell you it has nothing to do with the DPS , run dont walk to another dealer .

widowmaker2011, Is this a misprint, or am I missing something:dontknow:
Thanks for your report on your theory :thumbup:

 

[docdoru]

Wrong. Count me as one.

+1 nojoke

 

[BajaRon]

Yes and Yes. What we are unable to get BRP to confirm is "what" changed in the reprogram. There is a , lets say ....theory (this is just a theory, one which I believe to be true but you need to do your own research because I could be wrong) Just ask my wife :shemademe_smilie:
......that the DPS no longer looks at gear position after the reprogram, just speed. When they eliminated that portion of the programing , they assumed they would have a "null" input (null means no input) , so the DPS would just ignore the GPS signal. The opposite happened and the GPS was throwing a syne wave that was being misinterpreted by the dps. New GPS , problem solved. Again this is merely a theory among many but this dog thinks its close to tracking that 1 last duck.... this dog hunts till he gets it. So there we are back at get the new GPS (or ride an 09 or 2010 ha ha) and wait for BRP to get the DPS internal failure fixed.

Well, as long as we are throwing out completely unverifiable guesses, here's mine.

The update increased the PS input at lower speeds effectively making the entire system more sensitive. I noticed easier steering at very slow speeds after the update.

It is harder to tell how much difference there was at higher speeds as there is less resistance to turning once you're moving. But my guess is the tapering off of the progressive assist was less steep as well.

If I'm right (which is rare but very rewarding when it happens) then there was more assist and more sensitivity programmed into the steering system. Most likely the design parameters told BRP that these components could handle the increased demand. But if manufacturing was not up to par, weaker components might fail.

This might explain why you go from a system that works to one that doesn't with the same components. The only difference being what the components were being asked to do. Increase the workload and increase the failure rate. Those Spyders with marginal components experienced failures.

Still, most are running just fine while some are problematic.

 

[widowmaker2011]

widowmaker2011, Is this a misprint, or am I missing something:dontknow:
Thanks for your report on your theory :thumbup:

GPS GPS GPS Gear Position Sensor.... GOS is merely an acronym for my typing Goofy Odd Sloppy. SORRY!!! :cus:

 

[widowmaker2011]

1. I did change the GPS 20K miles ago (check engine light + E error + frozen steering). Problem solved until 3 days ago.
2. The second update was issued for low RPM hesitations, doesn’t matter the gear.
3. One cannot erase/reinstall the second update from/to the ECM. :chat:

I'd check to see if you got the new part not the old stock seein g how it was so long ago.... just an idea.

 

[dave01]

My new one that failed was the "new part". My dealer checked the unit and then called BRP back and it wasnt an older one.

 

[spyryder]

marginal parts??

Here we go again...........opcorn:

The Spyder is a FANTASTIC concept, put together with barely marginal parts(Rotax excluded)

:hun:
I wouldn't say that Bosch, or Hayes Brakes (also used by Harley) are "barely marginal parts".

 

[mike3069]

The stability control can regulate brake pressure independently at each wheel and alter engine ECU functions to limit power...all in the name of keeping our arses planted on the road.....However the brake regulation ONLY occurs when you are on the brakes , it cannot "apply" a brake independent of the rider. (The Spyder cannot apply the brakes it has no ability to do that, it uses the standard Bosch VSS control scheme .) So this theory would only apply if a rider was "on the brakes" at the time of the failure which isn't the case here.

I was attempting (but not successfully) to say I think it isn't set up to independently brake "EACH" wheel in the event of VSS activation as opposed to ABS activation "The system intervenes by applying brake pressure or cutting the throttle with the onset of wheel lift or if the G-meter under the seat senses excessive lateral movement."

My personal experience with VSS activation on the SPYDER indicates that it does indeed apply the brakes both independently to the outside front wheel in a turn or rear wheel slide and apply the brakes when the rider is not touching the brake pedal at all.

I still do not think the pump is programmed to independently brake each front wheel "separately" as it does in a car. In the TRI setup this could cause some serious stability issues not to mention because there is one rear wheel tied to two sensors , the Module cannot discern sideslip loss of traction in the rear as it does on your Chrysler. The Module uses inputs (on your car for example ) from the speed sensors in BOTH rear wheels and the yaw sensor to trigger braking / engine latency etc. The program needs to use the variable of comparative rear wheel speed (left versus right) to get its stability re-action program to each of the 4 brake calipers via pump action. ON the spyder that comparative is never there (ie: the computer reads both left and right rear wheels are always spinning the same speed because it thinks it has 4 wheels). This means the programming is vastly different . Its all good , we are all looking for the same results here , a permanent fix.

The VSS only needs a differential reading between the FRONT and REAR,
(not the two rear wheels) while also reading a steering angle inut to determine that a loss of traction has occured.

When this happens the VSS cuts engine power, it doesn't apply brakes.

Brake application by the VSS occurs when the system reads a combination of lateral acceleration (G-force), yaw angle and steering angle that exceeds a set value. When this condition is met the outside wheel brake is applied by the computer until the readings come back into acceptable parameters. It MAY also sense differential in front wheel speed and do this also, as in one wheel lifting, but I have been able to fool the VSS in ways that tend to make me think this is not actually the case and the other parameters listed are really deciding when to apply outside wheel braking.

I do not see any way the VSS could work to maintain your steering line (like an SUV) without independent braking. This is a known (and advertised) feature of the Spyder VSS. Anecdotal evidence from the Dragon indicates that the Spyder will do the braking for you in the tight turns, without pressure on the pedal. Just another man's opinion.

I agree with Scotty here.

... but the computer in the VSS is not sophisticated enough to do what your describing , (which by the way is an excellent idea) :thumbup:

I think it is not a matter of "sophisticated enough", rather of what the computer is told to do with it's limited resources. What input is it told to monitor and what are the limits imposed on those inputs that trigger a reaction.

Brad, please don't think I'm arguing here, these are just my opinions based on my observations and experiences. Your comments are not only welcomed by me, but have the effect of making me think in a critical fashion about this stuff. Thank you.

 

[ataDude]

Wrong. Count me as one.

.

Originally Posted by widowmaker2011
True , and some very unscientific research done by me shows that those with the new GPS (new design) have virtually zero problems after it is replaced also.


Are you absolutely sure you got the "New Design"?

Anyway, he did say "Virtually" = Almost Entirely or Nearly.

I guess you constitute the "Almost" or "Nearly" in this definition. So, at least to this point, his statement stands as correct.

+1 nojoke

Yes, Ron, I am absolutely sure that I got the new one... if you'll remember, I'm the guy who put the puzzle together to help determine it was the GPS failing (at the time)... about 14 months ago.

Apparently, docdoru is another... and there are more.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7831

And, I was good until the updates, BTW.

.

 

[Sekhet]

Achtung Baby! VERY COOL MACHINE!

Thanks, It’s taken six years to get it to where it is now and still a work in progress.

 

[sabunim5]

Bad news from the dealer: DPS on backorder, ETA unknown...:shocked:

Same for Me. nojoke

 

[musicarcade]

New GPS in Nov.

Wrong. Count me as one.

.

Me too. :spyder:in shop now for steering probs in Dec.

 

[widowmaker2011]

My personal experience with VSS activation on the SPYDER indicates that it does indeed apply the brakes both independently to the outside front wheel in a turn or rear wheel slide and apply the brakes when the rider is not touching the brake pedal at all.



The VSS only needs a differential reading between the FRONT and REAR,
(not the two rear wheels) while also reading a steering angle inut to determine that a loss of traction has occured.

When this happens the VSS cuts engine power, it doesn't apply brakes.

Brake application by the VSS occurs when the system reads a combination of lateral acceleration (G-force), yaw angle and steering angle that exceeds a set value. When this condition is met the outside wheel brake is applied by the computer until the readings come back into acceptable parameters. It MAY also sense differential in front wheel speed and do this also, as in one wheel lifting, but I have been able to fool the VSS in ways that tend to make me think this is not actually the case and the other parameters listed are really deciding when to apply outside wheel braking.



I agree with Scotty here.



I think it is not a matter of "sophisticated enough", rather of what the computer is told to do with it's limited resources. What input is it told to monitor and what are the limits imposed on those inputs that trigger a reaction.

Brad, please don't think I'm arguing here, these are just my opinions based on my observations and experiences. Your comments are not only welcomed by me, but have the effect of making me think in a critical fashion about this stuff. Thank you.

Mike--No offense taken!!!!! We are all working for the same results!!! :2thumbs:

 

[BajaRon]

Someone mentioned "Barely Marginal Parts" and I think they are on to something. I know for sure that is a lot of my problem.

Knees, back, shoulder (and that's my short list) :yikes:

But when I'm cranking through the twisties on my Spyder everything feels much better! :thumbup:

 

[truck 85]

Someone mentioned "Barely Marginal Parts" and I think they are on to something. I know for sure that is a lot of my problem.

Knees, back, shoulder (and that's my short list) :yikes:

But when I'm cranking through the twisties on my Spyder everything feels much better! :thumbup:

+1

 

[Roaddog2]

Here we go again...........opcorn:

The guy is unhappy with BRP's response (or lack of), to potentially fatal steering malfunctions. He voices his displeasure, and that's sour grapes??:dontknow: I don't get it....Is the Spyder's image or resale value more important than someones potential safety?

At least he's willing to talk about what's going on. Whether folks like it or not, it is real and it is happening and BRP doesn't seem to be getting it very right, very often, do they?

He has as much right to be unhappy, as others do to be happy. If ya' don't like it, just don't read it, and pretend the steering nightmare will never happen to you.

Or read the bad stuff along with the good stuff, and perhaps form a realistic open-minded opinion......

Here's mine- The Spyder is a FANTASTIC concept, put together with barely marginal parts(Rotax excluded), and brought to market by a company that's 'not quite ready for primetime'...... Sour grapes?, maybe, but it is reality....:doorag:

:agree::doorag:

 

[Roaddog2]

Exactly:gaah:

:agree::gaah: