XPS engine oil

[Sarge707]

Yes, it says 5w-40 XPS and I'm looking for a better oil since a dry clutch will not be an issue. Should be some super slippery oil for dry clutch motorcycle engines that will perform better. Hoping for suggestions. :cheers: cueman

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Valvolin...MI7pev75r44AIVDrbICh2p1QE2EAQYASABEgKEcvD_BwE

I have used this 100 hours in my 900cc Spark Jet Ski and New GTI 900cc and it works fine- Used in high end sports cars?
Cheap, Local buy for most. I think using Jaso MA2 in the Ryker is counterproductive. IMO

 

[BajaRon]

Contact Bajaron, he is an Amsoil dealer and a Ryker owner.

Here is my conversation with Amsoil on the subject. I am not necessarily impressed with this answer. I am not saying it is not correct. I am sure the Amsoil MCF oil recommended will work very well, just as it has in the Spyder engines. But this answer seems a bit disconnected and circular to me. I am also a bit disappointed in the lack of reasons as to why this answer is given.

This may simply be the safe answer. I am OK with safe answers. And I understand why the safe answer may be in Amsoil's best interest. But I also like 'Out of the Box' possibilities, when they apply. Plus there is always the possibility that my disappointment may lie in the fact that I did not get the answer I expected. I will let you be the judge on this one.

Original Question to Amsoil
Ron Athon
Can-Am has just come out with a new 3 wheeled vehicle called the Ryker. The Ryker uses a water cooled engine, as does the Spyder. But the Ryker has a CVT which is separate from the engine and uses gear oil. So the Ryker does not have a wet clutch or transmission utilizing the engine oil, as does the Spyder. Yet BRP/Can-Am recommends the same 5w-40 blended oil which is (Unnecessarily) JASO rated for the Ryker. My question is, would a lubricant such as the Signature, XL or other engine lubricant have an advantage over a lubricant engineered for transmission and wet clutch duties in this case? I know there are friction modifiers in engine only oils which cannot be used in wet clutch applications. Thank you.

Answer
Evan Kovala
Technical Services Representative
Using the Signature Series or XL oils will not have any advantage in this application and are not recommended. Can Am is still recommended an oil with the correct wet-clutch specification and friction characteristics.

Followup
Ron Athon
So you would recommend a wet clutch + transmission engineered lubricant be used in an application where there is no wet clutch or transmission? Interesting. My customers have been using the MCF 10w-40 oil in their Spyders, which do have a need for wet clutch & transmission lubrication. I am surprised that you recommend this same oil for the Ryker, where it need lubricate the engine only.

Reply
Evan Kovala
Technical Services Representative
AMSOIL recommends the 10w-40 Synthetic Metric Motor Cycle Oil, product code MCF.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, there you have it folks. Short and sweet!

 

[Easy Rider]

So, there you have it folks. Short and sweet!

And CYA simple.
Penned, no doubt, by a minimum wage employee who barely understands what a "wet clutch" really is.......and is paid to copy answers out of a book.

P.S. The original question was about a '14 RSS, SE5.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Dear Ron, I respect your knowledge on Oils.... But you have to take the answers you received in context …. they probably came from someone, who actually has little knowledge of what they are talking about..... There is info from actual engineers and then there is info disseminated from the corporate Lawyers ( ie. CYA ) we get this info from BRP - ALL the Time...…… jmho ….. Mike hyea:

 

[BajaRon]

And CYA simple.
Penned, no doubt, by a minimum wage employee who barely understands what a "wet clutch" really is.......and is paid to copy answers out of a book.

OUCH! But pretty much what I was trying to convey... Maybe I was too polite about it. Thanks for the clarification! :thumbup:

P.S. The original question was about a '14 RSS, SE5.

Point well taken. Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Apples and oranges on this one.

Dear Ron, I respect your knowledge on Oils.... But you have to take the answers you received in context …. they probably came from someone, who actually has little knowledge of what they are talking about..... There is info from actual engineers and then there is info disseminated from the corporate Lawyers ( ie. CYA ) we get this info from BRP - ALL the Time...…… jmho ….. Mike hyea:

Totally agree. In my opinion, their answer is no answer at all. My feeling is that we are still at square 1 on this subject.

Just to clarify that all of this is in regards to the Ryker and has nothing to do with the SE5 question in the original post (or any Spyder year or model for that matter). Amsoil 10w-40 MCF motorcycle oil is the only Amsoil product that should be used in the Spyder. Instead of responding to the Ryker question here. It may have been better to start a new thread. I apologize.

 

[cueman]

Here is my conversation with Amsoil on the subject. I am not necessarily impressed with this answer. I am not saying it is not correct. I am sure the Amsoil MCF oil recommended will work very well, just as it has in the Spyder engines. But this answer seems a bit disconnected and circular to me. I am also a bit disappointed in the lack of reasons as to why this answer is given.

This may simply be the safe answer. I am OK with safe answers. And I understand why the safe answer may be in Amsoil's best interest. But I also like 'Out of the Box' possibilities, when they apply. Plus there is always the possibility that my disappointment may lie in the fact that I did not get the answer I expected. I will let you be the judge on this one.

Original Question to Amsoil
Ron Athon
Can-Am has just come out with a new 3 wheeled vehicle called the Ryker. The Ryker uses a water cooled engine, as does the Spyder. But the Ryker has a CVT which is separate from the engine and uses gear oil. So the Ryker does not have a wet clutch or transmission utilizing the engine oil, as does the Spyder. Yet BRP/Can-Am recommends the same 5w-40 blended oil which is (Unnecessarily) JASO rated for the Ryker. My question is, would a lubricant such as the Signature, XL or other engine lubricant have an advantage over a lubricant engineered for transmission and wet clutch duties in this case? I know there are friction modifiers in engine only oils which cannot be used in wet clutch applications. Thank you.

Answer
Evan Kovala
Technical Services Representative
Using the Signature Series or XL oils will not have any advantage in this application and are not recommended. Can Am is still recommended an oil with the correct wet-clutch specification and friction characteristics.

Followup
Ron Athon
So you would recommend a wet clutch + transmission engineered lubricant be used in an application where there is no wet clutch or transmission? Interesting. My customers have been using the MCF 10w-40 oil in their Spyders, which do have a need for wet clutch & transmission lubrication. I am surprised that you recommend this same oil for the Ryker, where it need lubricate the engine only.

Reply
Evan Kovala
Technical Services Representative
AMSOIL recommends the 10w-40 Synthetic Metric Motor Cycle Oil, product code MCF.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, there you have it folks. Short and sweet!

BajaRon, Sarge707, Highwayman2013, and all others who understand and have a need for this important information. Thanks Ron for the contact information to Amsoil and their responses. You did above and beyond to help us Ryker owners try to find the best oil to use in our unique machines. I believe, soon or later, one of us will figure this out. I "tip my hat" to you sir. :chat: cueman

 

[cueman]

Don't mean to steel the thread but, we are still talking about oil. :chat: cueman[/QUOTE]

Please read post #15, If I made a boo boo, I will try to be more attentive in the future, cueman

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

So, there you have it folks. Short and sweet!

They actually may not have a good answer. Think about this. Besides the Ryker are there any gasoline engine powered mass produced motorcycles that have a transmission separate from the engine that are a significant portion of the market? If not then Amsoil probably hasn't spent any time determining what's best for such an engine and formulating an oil for it, so the safe answer is follow the manufacturer recommendation. They're not going to go out on a limb and say that the oil for a Lexus engine is perfectly suitable for a motorcycle engine if they haven't done any testing or analysis of it for that use.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Amsoil has a 0W-40 oil for snowmobiles but it's also rated for ATVs and recreational 4 strokes. But it has no friction modifiers and is compatible with wet clutches, so that's not what we're looking for here. https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-equi...hetic-oil/formula-4-stroke-powersports-0w-40/. That's the only oil they show for snowmobiles.

 

[BajaRon]

They actually may not have a good answer. Think about this. Besides the Ryker are there any gasoline engine powered mass produced motorcycles that have a transmission separate from the engine that are a significant portion of the market? If not then Amsoil probably hasn't spent any time determining what's best for such an engine and formulating an oil for it, so the safe answer is follow the manufacturer recommendation. They're not going to go out on a limb and say that the oil for a Lexus engine is perfectly suitable for a motorcycle engine if they haven't done any testing or analysis of it for that use.

I didn't pursue it any further with this Amsoil rep for the very reasons sighted by Easy Rider and BLUEKNIGHT911. I think this poor soul has got his script and he's sticking to it. But the obvious question to his answer, and the next logical step, would be. Why not recommend their motorcycle oils for all 4 stroke internal combustion engines if it the best choice for the Ryker? Which is basically the same (lubrication needs wise) as a high performance car engine?

I'm not sure which way I will go yet. But I am certainly going to look into it more before I decide. Don't get me wrong. I think the Amsoil MCF product recommended will work fine, just as the BRP recommendation will be adequate. I'm just not usually satisfied with 'Fine' and 'Adequate'. It's an affliction I must bear!

 

[cueman]

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Valvolin...MI7pev75r44AIVDrbICh2p1QE2EAQYASABEgKEcvD_BwE

I have used this 100 hours in my 900cc Spark Jet Ski and New GTI 900cc and it works fine- Used in high end sports cars?
Cheap, Local buy for most. I think using Jaso MA2 in the Ryker is counterproductive. IMO

Sarge707, I have done some research on this and I think you are on to something. Thanks for the heads up. :cheers: cueman

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I have a 14 RSS SE5. The manual states to use API SG, SH, SJ, or SL. And not to use API SM because clutch slippage may occur. A couple weeks ago, I ordered an XPS oil change kit on Ebay from a Can Am dealer. Says it's for a Spyder, but the quarts say API SM on the back. Is it safe for the bike? It's a genuine Can Am kit. Even the box it came in says it's for an SE5.

I've been doing a bunch of looking in owner's manuals and such. Your concern is valid on the face of it, but the CanAm parts page even says formulated for optimum wet clutch performance. I would say go ahead and use it but keep the box. If you have any kind of clutch problem show the dealer the box and tell them to fix it. SM has been superseded by SN as of late 2010. I don't find anything, even on the API site, about any reduction in additive strength for SM oils so it's not a case of SM 'dumbing' down to the level of the SE5 clutch.

I wonder if BRP has decided to allow SM oil in the SE5 to alleviate some of the clutch chattering problems that started with the 2013s.

 

[PMK]

Overall, years ago, when the Can Am oils were tested by owners here, they did not fare as well as other oils. After the engine is considered broken in, find a high quality oil, readily available, and stay with it.

Regardless of what Can Am says, the manual states no SM oil, so, myself, I would not even consider running the BRP oil that is rated SM. Why even chance it, and need to deal with Can Am or even worse, a dealer regarding a warranty claim.

Their obvious reply will be that clutches are a wear item, Warranty Claim Denied.

 

[jcthorne]

They actually may not have a good answer. Think about this. Besides the Ryker are there any gasoline engine powered mass produced motorcycles that have a transmission separate from the engine that are a significant portion of the market?

Yes, several million Harleys

 

[PMK]

Yes, several million Harleys

And many Honda CRF motocross race bikes

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Yes, several million Harleys

Looking at the Amsoil website I still say they may not have a good answer for Ron's question about oil for the Ryker! Why? Because the oils they list for HDs are for both engine and transmission use so it looks like they have not formulated a low friction oil specifically for m/c engines that must not be used in wet clutch applications. Neither does it look like they have formulated an oil specifically for the engine side of bikes like the Honda CRF. The description for their dirt bike oil includes wet clutch performance.

It looks to me like Amsoil does not have any oil, yet anyway, that they will recommend for Rykers, be it a new formulation or an existing automobile oil they determine to be suitable.

 

[PMK]

Looking at the Amsoil website I still say they may not have a good answer for Ron's question about oil for the Ryker! Why? Because the oils they list for HDs are for both engine and transmission use so it looks like they have not formulated a low friction oil specifically for m/c engines that must not be used in wet clutch applications. Neither does it look like they have formulated an oil specifically for the engine side of bikes like the Honda CRF. The description for their dirt bike oil includes wet clutch performance.

It looks to me like Amsoil does not have any oil, yet anyway, that they will recommend for Rykers, be it a new formulation or an existing automobile oil they determine to be suitable.

FWIW, tne CRF with seperate engine and gearbox oil is able to run high end automotive oil in the engine, and can run gearbox specific oil in the gearbox.

Other off road motorcycles with shared engine and gearbox oils would run the oils you referred to.

 

[GK72Cane]

Back to the original topic of this thread, I was curious also because I accidentally bought some of the XPS 4T oil and haven't used it because I thought it was wrong for my RS. I contacted XPS and asked them about it. Here is their response:

XPS_Lubricants <[email protected]>
11:55 AM (37 minutes ago)
to me

Hi Gary,



Thanks for the question.



The new bottle has the same 5W-40 oil as previously used and called Summer Grade, we just updated the packaging with new labels and bottle design.



In terms of the literature that recommends prior oil generations, the reason for the recommendation to NOT use SM is that many formulations with this API service level are formulated with types of friction modifiers that cause wet clutch slippage. XPS is formulated with precise friction to optimize the wet clutch performance of the Spyder, yet maintains API SM service level.



So most oils in the market that say API SM would not meet the specific requirements for Can Am, however the XPS product does meet the requirements for the clutch as well as meeting API SM service levels.



Thank you,



XPS Lubricants

 

[BajaRon]

Back to the original topic of this thread, I was curious also because I accidentally bought some of the XPS 4T oil and haven't used it because I thought it was wrong for my RS. I contacted XPS and asked them about it. Here is their response:

XPS_Lubricants <[email protected]>
11:55 AM (37 minutes ago)
to me

Hi Gary,



Thanks for the question.



The new bottle has the same 5W-40 oil as previously used and called Summer Grade, we just updated the packaging with new labels and bottle design.



In terms of the literature that recommends prior oil generations, the reason for the recommendation to NOT use SM is that many formulations with this API service level are formulated with types of friction modifiers that cause wet clutch slippage. XPS is formulated with precise friction to optimize the wet clutch performance of the Spyder, yet maintains API SM service level.



So most oils in the market that say API SM would not meet the specific requirements for Can Am, however the XPS product does meet the requirements for the clutch as well as meeting API SM service levels.



Thank you,



XPS Lubricants

Pretty much what I suspected. Nice to know for sure.

 

[Spyderman14RSS]

Back to the original topic of this thread, I was curious also because I accidentally bought some of the XPS 4T oil and haven't used it because I thought it was wrong for my RS. I contacted XPS and asked them about it. Here is their response:

XPS_Lubricants <[email protected]>
11:55 AM (37 minutes ago)
to me

Hi Gary,



Thanks for the question.



The new bottle has the same 5W-40 oil as previously used and called Summer Grade, we just updated the packaging with new labels and bottle design.



In terms of the literature that recommends prior oil generations, the reason for the recommendation to NOT use SM is that many formulations with this API service level are formulated with types of friction modifiers that cause wet clutch slippage. XPS is formulated with precise friction to optimize the wet clutch performance of the Spyder, yet maintains API SM service level.



So most oils in the market that say API SM would not meet the specific requirements for Can Am, however the XPS product does meet the requirements for the clutch as well as meeting API SM service levels.



Thank you,



XPS Lubricants

I contacted them as well and received my answer today same as you.

Hi Derek,



Thanks for the question.



You have the correct oil in your kit for your machine.



In terms of the literature that recommends prior oil generations, the reason for the recommendation to NOT use SM is that many formulations with this API service level are formulated with types of friction modifiers that cause wet clutch slippage. XPS is formulated with precise friction to optimize the wet clutch performance of the Spyder, yet maintains API SM service level.



So most oils in the market that say API SM would not meet the specific requirements for Can Am, however the XPS product does meet the requirements for the clutch as well as meeting API SM service levels.



Thank you,



XPS Lubricants