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Has anyone ever done anything with ram air intakes - on anything ? Need some advice!

F

fatenhappy

New member
Next silly question ...

Has anyone ever done anything with ram air intakes ? Obviously asking because in all the years of tweaking and playing, I have next to no experience with them.

However, thinking I wouldn't mind crossing a semi forced induction ram air intake with a particle separator style intake, that are mainly used on aircraft. ( ... think about a normally aspirated engine - then go to the other 'extremes' of turbo or super-charging, ... now back up the train to about half way between these two extremes and there sits what I envisage)

As an aside, particle separators, I'm very familiar with from my days of working with rotory engines and helicopters (Allison turbines especially ... And I see when I began 'googling' this stuff again, low and behold both Polaris and Can Am are all over it for their adventure off road series of turbos and the like ... bugger me ... C'mon BRP ... catch up with the Spyders yet again ...
 
RAM AIR

For my 08 GS, I put air intakes on the upper side panels to allow more into the engine area for cooling I THINK it helped .... For my 2011 RSS ( no fog lights ) I modded the OEM Air box rubber snorkels , made them much shorter and used a 4 in. aluminum dryer hose to connect to the right side Air Intake built into that panel ....This put much cooler Air into the stock air box so it was getting Ambient temp air as opposed to engine temp air ( about 200 F ) ..... did ir make a difference ...I'd like to say yes, but I never had it Dyno-ed so it would just SWAG ...... On my 1330 RT I re-moved the entire stock Air Intake and put a 3 in piece of thin wall pipe out the left side Panel ...I put a 3 in computer fan in that pipe ( fan = 36 cu.Ft. per min. ) ....but the fan is on the wrong side of the Air FILTER to give much RAM effect ..... I have a pic in my Album's ( the one that shows a pic of a trimmed "A" arm cover ........ Mike :thumbup:
 
The fan will restrict the intake!

BLUEKNIGHT911 said:
Very nice .....that's about what I did on the RSS ...but on the other side so the Air went into the Air Box .... I never thought about adding the Fan ....??? What size it that ???? .......... Mike :thumbup:
Click to expand...

It takes kilowatts to drive a fan large enough to pressuurise an engine's air intake, not watts.

All you are doing is restricting the air intake by adding a fan into that tube.
 
AY4B said:
What are you calling ram air intakes? Where the foglights are?
Click to expand...

No mate ... taking things if you will to an extreme ... We have all seen those big air dams that are placed toward the front of a vehicle (say a dragster) which traditionally has a larger opening that diminishes to a small intake at the rear all in an effort to catch as much as the air flow as possible. Traditionally then from an automotive sense the smaller area at the rear supplies the opening to the engine fuel managements air intake ... so it 'rams' the air into the intake
 
BLUEKNIGHT911 said:
Very nice .....that's about what I did on the RSS ...but on the other side so the Air went into the Air Box .... I never thought about adding the Fan ....??? What size it that ???? .......... Mike :thumbup:
Click to expand...

I've seen these a fair bit lately on 'greedbay' ... They are cheap as chips but reputed to run at about 55,000 rpm (if we are talking the same thing) ... So what are you doing here ... just turning it on and letting it rip or?
 
Chupaca said:
View attachment 160083 View attachment 160084
Click to expand...


I've seen these fans a fair bit lately on 'greedbay' ... They are cheap as chips and reputed by their suppliers to run at about 55,000 rpm (if we are talking about the same thing) ...

So what are you doing here to run / control it ... Just turning it on and letting it rip or?

I am trying to achieve a more gentle, gradual radii and 'smooth' transition for the airflow to avoid turbulence as much as possible ... I would also like to implement a venturi effect for the enhancement of the same ... My thought is to 'possibly' experiment with mounting the air catchment from directly behind the F3-T grill there some where .

(I know I know, I have too much time on my hands - Most other people would probably be scratching their heads as to why I would even bother ... but my response is why not? What can it hurt by having a dabble ... I suppose, just because I am a silly old bugger and can !!!)

Any and all suggestions really appreciated ...
 
Freewheeling

fatenhappy said:
I've seen these fans a fair bit lately on 'greedbay' ... They are cheap as chips and reputed by their suppliers to run at about 55,000 rpm (if we are talking about the same thing) ...

So what are you doing here to run / control it ... Just turning it on and letting it rip or?

I am trying to achieve a more gentle, gradual radii and 'smooth' transition for the airflow to avoid turbulence as much as possible ... I would also like to implement a venturi effect for the enhancement of the same ... My thought is to 'possibly' experiment with mounting the air catchment from directly behind the F3-T grill there some where .

(I know I know, I have too much time on my hands - Most other people would probably be scratching their heads as to why I would even bother ... but my response is why not? What can it hurt by having a dabble ... I suppose, just because I am a silly old bugger and can !!!)

Any and all suggestions really appreciated ...
Click to expand...

These fan are not powered they run on air flowing through them. The faster I go, the faster they spin. Have worked well feeding air to the filher and cooling the engine compartment. Dabble on and let us see the results...:2thumbs:
 
There isn't much of anything you are going to "insert" in the intake tract that will do anything other than impede airflow. If you do some math ( (Displacement) (RPM) (Volumetric Efficiency) (Pressure Ratio)/5660 ) to determine CFM rates for the engine you are gonna see that a 1.33 liter engine spinning at let's say the midpoint of our rpm range, 4K, with a standard 90% VE figure will ingest air at a rate of 84.59 CFM... And pretty much double that at 8k. Even at a modest 2k it will ingest at a rate of 42.29 CFM.

There is more to be had by cooling the intake air charge and removing restrictions in the intake tract (air filter etc). You have to be careful when enlarging the intake piping diameter when using a MAF type system as this will change the MAF readings to the ECM. You can get away with it if you are using a Speed Density System up to the limits of the maps' ability to self adjust.
 
Chupaca said:
These fan are not powered they run on air flowing through them. The faster I go, the faster they spin. Have worked well feeding air to the filher and cooling the engine compartment. Dabble on and let us see the results...:2thumbs:
Click to expand...

I would suggest you cannot create 'free energy' from a free spinning propeller ... I would be really surprised if these 'free spinning' fans are achieving much of anything at all except maybe initially some turbulence or and a more direct air flow ... like your style and love your creativity though ... I'd imagine you would get a better result from just having a free air / direct ram duct with no fans
 
hypurone said:
There isn't much of anything you are going to "insert" in the intake tract that will do anything other than impede airflow. If you do some math ( (Displacement) (RPM) (Volumetric Efficiency) (Pressure Ratio)/5660 ) to determine CFM rates for the engine you are gonna see that a 1.33 liter engine spinning at let's say the midpoint of our rpm range, 4K, with a standard 90% VE figure will ingest air at a rate of 84.59 CFM... And pretty much double that at 8k. Even at a modest 2k it will ingest at a rate of 42.29 CFM.

There is more to be had by cooling the intake air charge and removing restrictions in the intake tract (air filter etc). You have to be careful when enlarging the intake piping diameter when using a MAF type system as this will change the MAF readings to the ECM. You can get away with it if you are using a Speed Density System up to the limits of the maps' ability to self adjust.
Click to expand...

Oky doky .... lets play some ... My figures for a 1330cc engine come up to 81.16 ci ....(In my mind the first thing we do is to convert its displacement into cubic inches, allowing easier conversion into determining lbs/min of air mass flow. So, 1330 /16.387 Cubic Conversion Displacement = 81.16 ci) ....

Now that we have our displacement in cubic inches we need to calculate the engine’s air-flow in CFM in its naturally aspirated state. (CFM is a recognised constant (K) and generally accept at max air flow to be 115cfm / inch sq through an orifice, as per when calculating eg exhaust gases etc or alternately inlet manifold max flows. This is very easily done and expressed as follows ... CID x 0.5 x Max RPM / 1,728 = CFM

This formula takes the engine’s size in cubic inches times .5 because in a four-cycle engine it takes two complete engine revolutions for all cylinders to completetheir cycles. This value is converted from cubic inches per minute to CFM by dividing it by 1,728, thenumber of cubic inches in one cubic foot (12 x 12 x 12 = 1,728). So, all up the formula with our engine should now look something like 81.16 x .5 x 7200 / 1,728 = 169.083 ... (7200 because that is where our 1330 produces peak HP .... however, I am still in a quandary here also, as for 'response' (ie when we want to gun it) we would - again in my mind, be looking towards peak max torque and not max HP output - which again is expressed by the CAN AM spec @ 5000rpm)

Now also bare in mind we probably need to be looking towards what we 'want to achieve' rather than what is currently advertised as max ...

Next we take our 169.083 CFM and adjust it for the land of reality as very few naturally aspirated engines could ever achieve anything like 100% efficiency without a whole shed load of 'tweaking' .... The above calculation contains an assumption of 100 % VE. Since most engines in the naturally aspirated state do not operate at anything like 100 percent VE, we need to compensate and recalculate. Now again this is where conjecture comes into play, depending on the 'source' of your reference....

So again, a typical two-valves-per-cylinder, push-rod engine is somewhere around 80 to 85% VE, four-valve engine w/variable valve timing maybe 95% VE .... (if you are real lucky ) ... So lets stay really conservative and say for this example, our four-valve banger is getting about 85 percent .... (... my choice!)

So now, that's ... 169.083 x 0.85 = 143 CFM (realistically) .... And that is what I am working on as my solid starting / base line and the lowest possible numbers so I am not fudging ...

From here on in, what ever (if any - and I know I can produce them) increase the Spyder has will be because of the increased inlet air flow efficiency ..... (as yet I have not even touched the stock exhaust ) ....

I am just explaining - my back ground is aviation - aerodynamics - airflow and all that good stuff etc and lucky enough to have been able to both 'play' and instruct on this stuff for years - so I am really confident of being able to achieving something special here ... If not, it will have been fun trying ... I'll go look for a link I saw just the other day from Eventuri .... (who look to be a UK company that specialise in this stuff - obviously I am not the only believer ... and .... PS .... Just looking today so apparently are the US space agency NASA ) ... to what I am talking and thinking about ... In the mean time some great thoughts and tricks to come (promise) ..... Stay safe and please keep the input coming ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRuaLm_TT4o&t=9s (apologise for the length its 18 minutes plus ) .... and

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...dpr=1#imgrc=Mtf2Si4MqwhAmM:&spf=1524490723898






 
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hypurone said:
.... Just saw this send part of the quote

There is more to be had by cooling the intake air charge and removing restrictions in the intake tract (air filter etc). You have to be careful when enlarging the intake piping diameter when using a MAF type system as this will change the MAF readings to the ECM. You can get away with it if you are using a Speed Density System up to the limits of the maps' ability to self adjust.
Click to expand...

Just realised there was this second part to your prior response quote ... I am not overly concerned with going out side the current mapping for the ECU as I want to take the 'beast' in to Jason at Xtreme here on the Gold Coast to get the mapping tweaked in any case. I'll just let him work his magic after the exhaust goes on ...
 
fatenhappy said:
Just realised there was this second part to your prior response quote ... I am not overly concerned with going out side the current mapping for the ECU as I want to take the 'beast' in to Jason at Xtreme here on the Gold Coast to get the mapping tweaked in any case. I'll just let him work his magic after the exhaust goes on ...
Click to expand...

That could work as long as the injectors/fuel pump can deliver what you need fuel wise without reaching an unsustainable/inefficient duty cycle rate....
 
fatenhappy said:
Next silly question ...

Has anyone ever done anything with ram air intakes ? Obviously asking because in all the years of tweaking and playing, I have next to no experience with them.

However, thinking I wouldn't mind crossing a semi forced induction ram air intake with a particle separator style intake, that are mainly used on aircraft. ( ... think about a normally aspirated engine - then go to the other 'extremes' of turbo or super-charging, ... now back up the train to about half way between these two extremes and there sits what I envisage)

As an aside, particle separators, I'm very familiar with from my days of working with rotory engines and helicopters (Allison turbines especially ... And I see when I began 'googling' this stuff again, low and behold both Polaris and Can Am are all over it for their adventure off road series of turbos and the like ... bugger me ... C'mon BRP ... catch up with the Spyders yet again ...
Click to expand...

Well its been a few weeks, but there's heaps of research going on and if anything everything has been getting harder along the way, with all sorts of evolving ideas ...

Above all else and just as important to me if doing this is to 'do things right and do them neatly.'

Current problems with my lower left leg prosthetic have given me the perfect timing and excuse to pull down a bunch of panels and start to really have a close look at whats happening as stock. Like anything mechanical, I need to know the starting point before I just head off blindly ... The more I have this bike the more I am truly impressed with the engineers employed to build it at BRP .... Everything is or has in my mind at least, been vary well thought out for fit, function and form ...

So right now both sets of side panels are off the beast ... The Frunk and enclosed liner have been removed, as has the front under headlight combing shroud ... And so I spent a good couple of hours today assessing and just looking towards the quality of what is there ... all in an attempt to mindfully and genuinely improve that dreadedinflux of cool air.

Please do not take this as being at all demeaning in the way it 'may' sound, but 'for the uninitiated' and those who have never ventured there ... The 'air-box' intake on the F3 is located just in front of where your left knee is positioned when riding ... But, just under that too is the hot air being omitted by the engine. So there in lies the quandary and area for any possible airflow improvement ... Why? Just because its there and I can!

The actual open air intake to the air-box is a little over 75mm or 3" in diameter ... A huge thing that is directly located behind and inboard of the F3's EMU/ECU. Main problem there is, ... Just how to get the extra cool air flow up and into that air intake without impeding or restricting the existing airflow.

Once again I say the engineers at BRP have done a pretty amazing job, but everything with regards mass production is impaired by the holly dollar! As it is designed it is a restricted area of a little over 30mm or just over 1 1/4" to the left main support brace and directly above the front 1/3rd of the engine to that main air duct, so to me that's another reason it can be improved ..

Beginning to look at the science behind this, I know as we move forward the hot air is being cooled by forward air pushing it rearwards as we ride, but in reality it is very seldom we are doing 'highway' speeds to sweep away all that hot air for any real length of time ... So come on in cool air ... Just how to I get it there in an efficient way so it can best do its job? Particularly with-out cutting, chopping, sawing or inhibiting any of that adjacent fitment or design ..

My current thoughts ...

1) Possibly slightly (and stylishly) elevate the face of the hood of the frunk by an inch or so, so as to create an 'air dam' for a ram tube effect. Then also do incorporate the 'added yet removable' bodywork without drilling and screwing anything other than to the existing drilled holes and support areas of the hood frunk area.

2) Supply 2 x Ram air catchments then duct from either side of about the area of the fog lights bringing that back possibly under pressure via that open air 3" intake ... which again is quite 'doable'

3) And my least enthusiastic thought so far, is to access another forward inlet into the 'face' of the giant existing air box itself from about the area immediately behind the existing F3's grill ... could be under added pressure flow as well ... any other suggestions appreciated ... :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:
 
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fatenhappy said:
Next silly question ...

Has anyone ever done anything with ram air intakes ? Obviously asking because in all the years of tweaking and playing, I have next to no experience with them.

However, thinking I wouldn't mind crossing a semi forced induction ram air intake with a particle separator style intake, that are mainly used on aircraft. ( ... think about a normally aspirated engine - then go to the other 'extremes' of turbo or super-charging, ... now back up the train to about half way between these two extremes and there sits what I envisage)

As an aside, particle separators, I'm very familiar with from my days of working with rotory engines and helicopters (Allison turbines especially ... And I see when I began 'googling' this stuff again, low and behold both Polaris and Can Am are all over it for their adventure off road series of turbos and the like ... bugger me ... C'mon BRP ... catch up with the Spyders yet again ...
Click to expand...


The entire front of the F3-T tonight is all but totally stripped of nacelles and bodywork ... right back to the seating area .... I have to say I am stunned at the cavernous area that's hidden away immediately behind the grill ... I fully understand its been made as a captive area for the forward influx of air flow for the twin radiators, but gee wiz ... there has to be some potential there to be played with ...

I was also amazed at the sweeping 'laid flat type oval shaped' sweeping pipe from the inlet air supply on that opposite left hand side of the bike ... again, I reckon there is a huge potential there ... I guess only time will tell ...
 
Interesting thread

I probably won't do any of these mods, but I find the discussion fascinating. Particularly enjoy the back-and-forth between the 'try-it-and-see' approach and the strict engineering approach.

Hi Trevor!
 
UtahPete said:
I probably won't do any of these mods, but I find the discussion fascinating. Particularly enjoy the back-and-forth between the 'try-it-and-see' approach and the strict engineering approach.

Hi Trevor!
Click to expand...

I really don't get how you can not 'try it to see' (as in proving a theory) to see if the theorem and maths aligns.

Eg ... 'Oh I think a wheel will role along' ... No wait on, we won't 'try it to see' first before we go into production .... Who the hell would just chop into something all guns blazing without trying out the basis of the theoretical ?
 
fatenhappy said:
I would suggest you cannot create 'free energy' from a free spinning propeller ... I would be really surprised if these 'free spinning' fans are achieving much of anything at all except maybe initially some turbulence or and a more direct air flow ... like your style and love your creativity though ... I'd imagine you would get a better result from just having a free air / direct ram duct with no fans
Click to expand...

I agree--these fans would slow air intake---nothing rides for free...
Darrell
 
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