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Rotax 998 Reliability Phosphor Bronze in Oil

P

P V Twin

New member
Hi Spyder Lovers,

I recently changed the oil on my Rotax 998 and found small flakes of phosphor bronze in the oil. A dealer told me that I will need a new engine as the phosphor bronze has come from the big end, small end or crank shaft shells.
This seems far fetched to me as the engine was running well before the oil change;though it did sound a bit tappety on the top end.
The valve clearances were fine so I'm a bit worried about continuing to use the bike.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
 
Here's the thing....

Don't know why they would tell you that . If the plain bearings have worn through you would have to replace them....but not the engine. I have not seen anyone go throught the crank or connecting rod bearings if they maintained oil in the unit. Even when not changing it regularly. I would get a second opinion on this and see if it is the case and not some other reason for the oil dsicoloration...:gaah:
 
possibly get a second opinion , from another bike , service technician , .... metal flakes , are not good for sure , but wonder if the filter is coming apart { oil filter } piston rings ? knocking might be bearings like chupaca had mentioned ! get estimates for sure ! let every one know what the out come is ... hope it isn`t a bad motor !
 
It might be worth your while to drop a cupful or so of oil out of the engine now & send it off to get it tested, then do that again in 1000 miles or so. You should be able to get a Test Sample Kit from your local Fuel Depot (not your local gas outlet, but the place that supplies them!!) & they often come with 3 sample pots in one kit. You take the sample out of the engine & put it in the pot, seal it up, & send it off, then just wait for the report to come back. The report will have a lot of info on it that may or may not be meaningful to you, but it should also have a summary/precis of what it all means, & that's the bit you really want to read, at least until you learn what all the various contaminants & levels might mean. One test by itself may not always be really helpful straight up, but taking another in 1000 miles or so (or at the next oil change) will show what's wearing or worn in there, & will set you up for a good test series or program where the changes over time are extremely revealing!! I get my oil tests done every third oil change, altho I did get them done more often initially - just until I worked out what the 'benchmark' levels were. ;)

All that said, I hafta agree with some of the comments above - it seems pretty odd of the dealer to just drop this on you without explaining how they came to this conclusion & what diagnosis/tests they did to support the need for a new engine?! So maybe a second opinion would be a smart thing too - but in the meantime... hey, if you supposedly need a new engine anyway, why not keep ryding until it stops?! What 'extra' damage are you gonna do!! :sour:

Good Luck! :thumbup:
 
Peter Aawen said:
It might be worth your while to drop a cupful or so of oil out of the engine now & send it off to get it tested, then do that again in 1000 miles or so. You should be able to get a Test Sample Kit from your local Fuel Depot (not your local gas outlet, but the place that supplies them!!) & they often come with 3 sample pots in one kit. You take the sample out of the engine & put it in the pot, seal it up, & send it off, then just wait for the report to come back. The report will have a lot of info on it that may or may not be meaningful to you, but it should also have a summary/precis of what it all means, & that's the bit you really want to read, at least until you learn what all the various contaminants & levels might mean. One test by itself may not always be really helpful straight up, but taking another in 1000 miles or so (or at the next oil change) will show what's wearing or worn in there, & will set you up for a good test series or program where the changes over time are extremely revealing!! I get my oil tests done every third oil change, altho I did get them done more often initially - just until I worked out what the 'benchmark' levels were. ;)

All that said, I hafta agree with some of the comments above - it seems pretty odd of the dealer to just drop this on you without explaining how they came to this conclusion & what diagnosis/tests they did to support the need for a new engine?! So maybe a second opinion would be a smart thing too - but in the meantime... hey, if you supposedly need a new engine anyway, why not keep ryding until it stops?! What 'extra' damage are you gonna do!! :sour:

Good Luck! :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Totally agree, oil analysis will tell you the real status of the engine.
 
Bronze flakes in engine

No one asked how many miles are on this engine. Wouldn't this be an important considerstion to know before diagnoses of problems? Also, the clutch shares the same oil. If there were bad oil filters, metal flakes in the oil would also effect the clutch discs. My 2012 RT just clocked 43,000 miles on today's ride, and I have never had the Valve clearances checked yet. it is still running the same as when I took it out of the Box 5 years ago. I did change the Spark Plugs at about 30,000 miles, and the Plugs looked like they were hardly used. ( the were Iridium Plugs)
Experience is a much better Guide than sifting thru hundreds of Amateur Spyder Newbie posts. But if the engine was ever run dry of oil, mileage on the engine would make no difference. Both old and new engines need oil.

Peter Aawen said:
It might be worth your while to drop a cupful or so of oil out of the engine now & send it off to get it tested, then do that again in 1000 miles or so. You should be able to get a Test Sample Kit from your local Fuel Depot (not your local gas outlet, but the place that supplies them!!) & they often come with 3 sample pots in one kit. You take the sample out of the engine & put it in the pot, seal it up, & send it off, then just wait for the report to come back. The report will have a lot of info on it that may or may not be meaningful to you, but it should also have a summary/precis of what it all means, & that's the bit you really want to read, at least until you learn what all the various contaminants & levels might mean. One test by itself may not always be really helpful straight up, but taking another in 1000 miles or so (or at the next oil change) will show what's wearing or worn in there, & will set you up for a good test series or program where the changes over time are extremely revealing!! I get my oil tests done every third oil change, altho I did get them done more often initially - just until I worked out what the 'benchmark' levels were. ;)

All that said, I hafta agree with some of the comments above - it seems pretty odd of the dealer to just drop this on you without explaining how they came to this conclusion & what diagnosis/tests they did to support the need for a new engine?! So maybe a second opinion would be a smart thing too - but in the meantime... hey, if you supposedly need a new engine anyway, why not keep ryding until it stops?! What 'extra' damage are you gonna do!! :sour:

Good Luck! :thumbup:
Click to expand...
 
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WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT

007james said:
No one asked how many miles are on this engine. Wouldn't this be an important considerstion to know before diagnoses of problems? Also, the clutch shares the same oil. If there were bad oil filters, metal flakes in the oil would also effect the clutch discs. My 2012 RT just clocked 43,000 miles on today's ride, and I have never had the Valve clrances checked yet.it is still running the same as when I took it out of the Box 5 years ago. I did change the Spark Plugs at about 30,000 miles, and the Plugs looked like they were hardly used. ( the were Iridium Plugs)
Experience is a much better Guide than sifting thru hundreds of Amateur Spyder Newbie posts. But if the engine was ever run dry of oil, mileage on the engine would make no difference. Both old and new engines need oil.
Click to expand...
....Really, Bob asked the mileage question in post #2 !!!!!!!!! ...... " EXPERIENCE " !!!!! ..... nice word isn't it ..........Mike :thumbup:
 
998 always sounded a bit mechanically "trashy" at higher rpms when revving the engine and not under load. Pretty normal.

Please tell us how many miles, etc?
 
Thanks Guys

The engine has 18000 miles on it so so shouldn't be failing unless it's been abused (High revs with no load, burn outs etc), but as I said the power is pretty good.

One possibility that crossed my mind is that a previous owner let the engine run low on oil, the phosphor bush or bearing then seized causing the flakes. The Guy might have then just changed the oil and sold the bike on.
It will take a long while to get the contamination out altogether because a fair amount of oil is left in the oil cooler after draining.
My main concern is that the engine might fail at high speed, but I think I would get plenty of warning first, high temperature knocking etc...
Thanks
 
That motor/trans is done if your finding bronze flakes. It's a ticking time bomb at this point. There are a number of things that can cause it...low oil, clogged oil screen, crank walk, abuse, etc, etc. Likely a thrust washer in the trans if I had to take a WAG.
Best to pull it now and start taking it apart and see what's up. Or, if your not into motor rebuilds have the motor pulled and send it to AF1.

Sent from my Venue 8 3830 using Tapatalk
 
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Thanks to all of you Spydermen for your help your sagely advice has been very much appreciated.
I think I'll run the motor on on fresh oil and filter for a 1000 miles then drop the oil and change the filter to see if its got any worse.
At present the oil is not completely awash with flakes and the transmission is silky smooth.
I can check the condition after rides by pulling the rubber pipe from the oil tank to drain a small amount into a glass then top up.
And as Peter said, if the engine is totaled what more harm can I do?
If it comes to the worse I'll have to pick up a second hand motor from a bike breaker.
 
P V Twin said:
Thanks to all of you Spydermen for your help your sagely advice has been very much appreciated.
I think I'll run the motor on on fresh oil and filter for a 1000 miles then drop the oil and change the filter to see if its got any worse.
At present the oil is not completely awash with flakes and the transmission is silky smooth.
I can check the condition after rides by pulling the rubber pipe from the oil tank to drain a small amount into a glass then top up.
And as Peter said, if the engine is totaled what more harm can I do?
If it comes to the worse I'll have to pick up a second hand motor from a bike breaker.
Click to expand...
Of course there is always a risk you must consider when finding metal shavings in your oil, but given the circumstances you described, I think your plan above is reasonable for now, as long as you keep a close watch on it. I should add the disclaimer that I am not an engine mechanic, but I do have some experience with engine maintenance from an owner's perspective, having owned small aircraft for a number of years.

...which brings up a second point. I believe Peter's suggestion that oil sample analysis, especially sequential ones, can often lead you directly to the source of a problem. The procedure is not expensive. If the kits are hard to locate, they can most likely be obtained from any small aircraft maintenance shop at a local airport. Also PMK made a good suggestion about having a knowledgeable mechanic cut open your oil filter, and lay out the element for inspection. That can also yield informative information. Those two inexpensive procedures may give you some piece of mind about "how much" you need to worry at this particular time. As Paul also mentioned, the oil analysis alone is not always conclusive, but I've found them to be extremely beneficial over the years - not only when considering when to have an engine rebuilt or replaced, but also as an aid to preventative maintenance. (Admittedly not quite as important with a Spyder as it is with an aircraft. ;))
 
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Personally, I hate being stranded. It's also a bummer when a fellow riders machine breaks down. Worse is when someone goes out on a ride with a machine they know is hurt and rides it anyway.
The problem isn't going to fix itself. Parts aren't that expensive and it's a fairly easy winter teardown. Grenade the motor and costs go up considerably. Getting the motor out takes more than tearing it apart. A used motor is a gamble and you might end up in the exact same situation. Best of luck though...

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 
P V Twin said:
Thanks to all of you Spydermen for your help your sagely advice has been very much appreciated.
I think I'll run the motor on on fresh oil and filter for a 1000 miles then drop the oil and change the filter to see if its got any worse.
At present the oil is not completely awash with flakes and the transmission is silky smooth.
I can check the condition after rides by pulling the rubber pipe from the oil tank to drain a small amount into a glass then top up.
And as Peter said, if the engine is totaled what more harm can I do?
If it comes to the worse I'll have to pick up a second hand motor from a bike breaker.
Click to expand...

These guys do good oil analysis.
http://m.blackstone-labs.com/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Experience

Hey Bob, I never saw the post asking for mileage. Why the Knee Jerk? Would you cut me enough slack to admit logging 42,000 miles on my 2012 998 Spyder grants me enough experience to respond to a question on the same engine? Or,....do you consider being a daily poster grants you more experience to knee jerk? Just wondering.


BLUEKNIGHT911 said:
....Really, Bob asked the mileage question in post #2 !!!!!!!!! ...... " EXPERIENCE " !!!!! ..... nice word isn't it ..........Mike :thumbup:
Click to expand...
 
Sorry Bob. I meant to say Mike. 😇 I'd think you have plenty of experience on a 998 Engine with 18,000 miles. I bought my 2002 Kawi Vulcan 1500 new, and thought I rode the crap out of it. I had it for 10 years, and only put 27,000 miles on it when I traded it in on my 2012 RT. I took my RT out of the Show room Feb. 2012, and even after being out of the country for a year the last 5 years, after today's ride, it has 43,300 miles on it! Cheers, Jim

Bob Denman said:
:D I'm not the one who brought that up?

We're good! :thumbup:
Click to expand...
 
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