Downshifting vs Braking

[ff73148]

I'm a newer owner of a 2022 RT Limited. Coming from two wheels I've always been a fan of downshifting and using engine braking to slow down. I've been doing this with my Spyder rather than letting the bike downshift on it's own. Any issues with what I'm doing?

[PaladinLV]

Absolutely NONE!
I manually down shift 85% of the time.

[Little Blue]

Well, whatever you want to do. The Spyder will only do what it is program to do by the computer. Unless you have changed your computer 'black box'.

So if you don't want to downshift use the brake.
I generally use the engine to aid in my slowing down my Spyder. Just what I have been doing riding my bikes over the years.

What is best I will let you decide. I am sure others will have their own thoughts on this.

Stay Healthy. ....

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I'm a newer owner of a 2022 RT Limited. Coming from two wheels I've always been a fan of downshifting and using engine braking to slow down. I've been doing this with my Spyder rather than letting the bike downshift on it's own. Any issues with what I'm doing?

My answer is going start a .... WAR .... I use my brakes 95% of the time (I have an SE trans w 1330 engine) I let the computer do the Downshifting ...... the other 5 % I downshift manually to stay in the power band in the Twisty's. .... Lots of folks will say the trans. is made to withstand the abuse created by "engine braking" .... IMHO (and many others) every time you subject metal to metal contact, this creates WEAR - period (this applies to the clutch also). I would rather buy brake pads then engine/ trans. parts..... let the fighting begin ... ..... Mike

[Bangorbob]

Why would you start a war for doing what you want? At least we have choices. I do both depending on how I feel.

[Peter Aawen]

You can choose to use your brakes alone as you slow; or you can choose to shift down & engine brake if that's what you prefer; none of my business or anyone else's but yours - but it might pay you to keep in mind that these SE transmissions our Spyders run are, for all intents and purposes, still just MANUAL gearboxes, albeit with centrifugal clutches (SE5's) or oil pressure/hydraulic clutches(SE6's) and some pretty sexy electro/solenoid computer enacted flappy-paddle (thumb & fore-finger) initiated 'quick-shift' gear selection capabilities; and as such they have a FAIL-SAFE downshift feature built into the Transmission Control Module (TCM computer) that's designed and intended to make the down-shift for you if you ever happen to forget or if you apply too much throttle for the gear/road speed & so risk putting too much torque thru that (higher) gear &/or the clutch.

So while the computer TCM has your back and won't let you do anything that'll likely cause damage, if you REALLY want to do what's best for you & the bike/its transmission & clutch, you'll ride & change gears exactly the same way you would for any other bike with a MANUAL gearbox.... and if that involves you choosing to coast &/or brake to slow down without personally initiating any changing down to match your revs/road speed & instead leaving all that to the Fail-Safe software programmed into the computer, that's OK - but so is initiating the gearchanges to match your slowing revs/road speed yourself; or even selecting the lower gears a bit early to help slow you down &/or stay in the power band/right rev range for that gear/road speed if you wish! Mind you, it might be a bit more important to practice either of those last two mentioned for riders of SE5 bikes, cos you can get a 'false neutral' when the centrifugal clutch starts to disengage if your revs drop low enough.... once your engine revs drop anything much below 3500 rpm the clutch will start to disengage and in some circumstances, that can see you free-wheeling... possibly at an ever-increasing speed if there's enough down-hill slope involved!!

Still, the gearbox is made to handle either coasting to a stop &/or engine braking (or any other way besides ); if it wasn't, the gear teeth in the trans wouldn't have or need a bearing/contact face on each side of every tooth, but I reckon those're there for a pretty good reason; and besides, the computer won't let you do anything truly harmful to the clutch/trans/engine when changing gears anyway! Me, I personally ride/drive my Spyder as I would any other manually gearboxed bike/vehicle, and I generally initiate any necessary gearchange down-shifts myself, but not always - sometimes that might entail a bit of engine braking (ex-crashbox heavy vehicle driver here ) and sometimes it's just me matching revs & road speed to the gear selection seamlessly as I gently slow ( ); but I know that whatever way, the computer's got my back if I get it wrong occasionally, AND even if I completely forget to change down at all, or if I suddenly wrench the throttle wide open again in too high a gear for the given road speed!

Just Sayin'

[pauly1]

I use the paddle shift on a 1330/SE6 F3 almost exclusively vs letting the TCM do it for me. The computer does the minimum to keep the clutch engaged so you don't go into free wheeling/coasting mode; it doesn't look at engine performance, grade of the road, etc. The engine provides dynamic braking, especially useful when descending grades. Choose to use your brakes exclusively and let the TCM do it's minimal downshifting runs the risk of overheating the brakes and/or losing control of the machine. I ran big V-twins for 15 years/170K miles and never lost a clutch or transmission, relying on the additional engine braking. That includes riding 2-up, and/or pulling a trailer. Take any riding course and they will recommend use of the engine for additional brake and vehicle control.

[Latrappe]

I think it depends on the situation if you just use brakes only or gears or a combination of the two, as you all know Spyders stop a lot quicker than Two Wheelers or Cars, so it is not only the stopping it is what is creeping up behind you and are they going to stop, especially in an emergency stop and that is making sure you in the right gear to go

My 2 Cents worth

[pegasus1300]

I'm a newer owner of a 2022 RT Limited. Coming from two wheels I've always been a fan of downshifting and using engine braking to slow down. I've been doing this with my Spyder rather than letting the bike downshift on it's own. Any issues with what I'm doing?

None at all, I have been riding my 2012 Spyder that way since I got it in 2015. Ride on and enjoy

[Pirate]

My answer is going start a .... WAR .... I use my brakes 95% of the time (I have an SE trans w 1330 engine) I let the computer do the Downshifting ...... the other 5 % I downshift manually to stay in the power band in the Twisty's. .... Lots of folks will say the trans. is made to withstand the abuse created by "engine braking" .... IMHO (and many others) every time you subject metal to metal contact, this creates WEAR - period (this applies to the clutch also). I would rather buy brake pads then engine/ trans. parts..... let the fighting begin ... ..... Mike

I do the same and most of my riding is in the canyons.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I use the paddle shift on a 1330/SE6 F3 almost exclusively vs letting the TCM do it for me. The computer does the minimum to keep the clutch engaged so you don't go into free wheeling/coasting mode; it doesn't look at engine performance, grade of the road, etc. The engine provides dynamic braking, especially useful when descending grades. Choose to use your brakes exclusively and let the TCM do it's minimal downshifting runs the risk of overheating the brakes and/or losing control of the machine. I ran big V-twins for 15 years/170K miles and never lost a clutch or transmission, relying on the additional engine braking. That includes riding 2-up, and/or pulling a trailer. Take any riding course and they will recommend use of the engine for additional brake and vehicle control.

....My comments were directed at those folks who prefer to use the Engine as their Main braking device...... When I came down off the top of Mt Washington in NH ( 6000 + ft ), I also used to the transmission to control my speed - as opposed to using them as a Stopping device..... there is a difference .....Mike

[Mikey]

....My comments were directed at those folks who prefer to use the Engine as their Main braking device...... When I came down off the top of Mt Washington in NH ( 6000 + ft ), I also used to the transmission to control my speed - as opposed to using them as a Stopping device..... there is a difference .....Mike

When I came down that mountain, I wish I could have gone around the people that were in front of me, I needed another gear lower, had to stop halfway down to cool my brakes. The boss behind me would have beat me on the back if I had passed the car!!!

[SLICE]

I ride like a Ken Block wanna be, that being said I find to many ''safety features'' on these machines.

It will not let you downshift if you are going too fast for the next lower gear (ie. 4 to 3 if you are moving at 50-60 MPH.)

I like to keep bikes up high in the power band, not this one, just another disappointing feature that a small percentage of us don't want or need.


Flame On

[Jane1330]

Spousal unit says, "Brakes are cheaper than gears".......

[BajaRon]

We've replaced a great many brake pads and a surprising number of rotors that got eaten. Some people go through a set of rear pads in less than 10k. About the same mileage as a Kenda OEM tire.

How many have ever heard of someone having to replace worn out gears? I've not in the 50 years plus that I've been riding motorcycles. If you use good oil. The metal in the gears never touch and don't wear any appreciable amount whether you use them or not.

It's an age old debate. I don't think anyone ever changes their mind.

[Navydad]

I'm a newer owner of a 2022 RT Limited. Coming from two wheels I've always been a fan of downshifting and using engine braking to slow down. I've been doing this with my Spyder rather than letting the bike downshift on it's own. Any issues with what I'm doing?

No. You're fine.

[Steve W.]

To add info to the debate referred to by BlueKnight and BajaRon:

Most of my early cars had manual transmissions. As a younger "adult", I really enjoyed rowing through the gears, up and down. A co-worker commented on that by saying that while downshifting does add braking power and spares the brakes, it also tends to wear out the engine (not so much the gears).

I have embraced that viewpoint, but modified it a bit to fit the situation at hand. If I were coming down Mt. Washington, Pike's Peak, or any other major hill, yeah, I would definitely be downshifting to keep speed in check and spare the brakes. However, going from stoplight to stoplight in town, the brakes are not going to overheat, so I tend to use them a bit more than downshifting.

For the most part, you are not hurting anything by downshifting, as the computer will not let you shift until the revs are low enough to allow safe entry into the next gear.

One other thing to consider: do you ride alone or have a passenger? How smooth is the shifting? Since you are not controlling the clutch action, you might bonk your helmets when the downshift occurs, unless your passenger is really experienced and anticipates the shift.

.

[pauly1]

....My comments were directed at those folks who prefer to use the Engine as their Main braking device...... When I came down off the top of Mt Washington in NH ( 6000 + ft ), I also used to the transmission to control my speed - as opposed to using them as a Stopping device..... there is a difference .....Mike

In other words, Mike, directed at me and my ilk. Controlling speed or braking: no difference. If one doesn't use the engine, then one uses the brakes. You ride your way and I'll ride my way.

[BajaRon]

To add info to the debate referred to by BlueKnight and BajaRon:

Most of my early cars had manual transmissions. As a younger "adult", I really enjoyed rowing through the gears, up and down. A co-worker commented on that by saying that while downshifting does add braking power and spares the brakes, it also tends to wear out the engine (not so much the gears).

I have embraced that viewpoint, but modified it a bit to fit the situation at hand. If I were coming down Mt. Washington, Pike's Peak, or any other major hill, yeah, I would definitely be downshifting to keep speed in check and spare the brakes. However, going from stoplight to stoplight in town, the brakes are not going to overheat, so I tend to use them a bit more than downshifting.

For the most part, you are not hurting anything by downshifting, as the computer will not let you shift until the revs are low enough to allow safe entry into the next gear.

One other thing to consider: do you ride alone or have a passenger? How smooth is the shifting? Since you are not controlling the clutch action, you might bonk your helmets when the downshift occurs, unless your passenger is really experienced and anticipates the shift.

.

I am sorry if the discussion seems to be contentious. It doesn't need to be. Most of us are going to do what we already do adhering to whatever floats our boat. It's you ride. You should do what you want. No one is required to justify the way they ride. But there are those who come here for information. Giving our reasons should help each undecided person in their decision. But if we fight about it, they probably just go away.

I'm not saying Mike or anyone else is wrong. I respect his opinion. I don't have to follow it anymore than he has to follow mine. We can both ride off into the sunset happy as clams and, may I say, happy with each other.

The engine wear theory is an interesting one. And I could see this being true in days gone by with different metals and oils that were nothing like what we have today. One of the few internal parts of an engine that may still have a metal to metal contact (again, good oil and maintenance procedures), is the piston ring to cylinder wall. And this pretty much limited to the top portion of travel. The compression ring (or rings) are designed to apply more outward pressure as compression increases. So, wide open throttle and high RPM is going to give you the greatest amount of wear at this location. Longer stroke will also add to this potential wear factor. Poorer oils tend to leave this upper cylinder area more vulnerable to wear as this area gets very hot.

Using the engine as a brake (decel application) puts a minuscule load on the engine components and quickly cools the upper cylinder area. The greatly reduced compression factor also reduces the amount of force the compression ring(s) are exerting on the cylinder walls. And any oil will do a much better job of lubricating this area under decel.

I tore my 750 Honda 4 cylinder down for another issue and was surprised that there were still hone marks all the way to the top of the cylinders at over 50k. And I ran that engine very hard using engine braking constantly. Granted, just one engine. Redline was 10.5k on that motor.

I suspect there are a lot of people out there using their engines as brake assist on a regular basis. I just don't hear about all these engines and transmissions going south. Just my 2 cents. With inflation, it might even be worth that much now!

[ARtraveler]

I am one who chooses free choice on the subject. I let the brakes do the talking 98% of the time. I will note that I am NOT an aggressive driver of the Spyder. So, for me, it does work.

Everyone's opinion is welcomed. We are a forum here, and opinions count.

One does not have to get on the proverbial "soap box" with arguments to make your point while demeaning others. It is highly unlikely that you are going to change anyone's mind by doing so.

[missouriboy]

...How many have ever heard of someone having to replace worn out gears? I've not in the 50 years plus that I've been riding motorcycles. If you use good oil. The metal in the gears never touch and don't wear any appreciable amount whether you use them or not...

EXACTLY!Decel is nothing but the opposite of accel. When you accelerate HARD (just for fun, or whatever reason) those gear teeth are doing it ALL, aren't they? And decel would wear the opposite sides of the gear teeth anyway, not increase the wear on the acceleration side. Now, there WOULD be drive-train thrust forces in the opposite direction of design-strength, but I wouldn't know if this is enough to be detrimental or not. Bearings & such...

[hut1]

I use engine braking/manual downshifting 95% of the time. I believe it was muscle memory that came in handy when my brakes failed while approaching a red light at highway speed. I was able to downshift quickly and slow enough to navigate my way through a busy intersection and coast to a stop on the shoulder..........in full pucker mode!

[askitee]

I'm a newer owner of a 2022 RT Limited. Coming from two wheels I've always been a fan of downshifting and using engine braking to slow down. I've been doing this with my Spyder rather than letting the bike downshift on it's own. Any issues with what I'm doing?

No issues; I do either. Sometimes I manually downshift, while others, I let the RTL do the work.

[Little Blue]

....Welcome back. Seems everyone has enjoyed this topic and has been somewhat positive about their opinions. So I feel good and let's move forward.

Tomorrow is another day. Let us enjoy life and Ryde Safe.
Stay Healthy. ....

[Mikey]

I ride like a Ken Block wanna be, that being said I find to many ''safety features'' on these machines.

It will not let you downshift if you are going too fast for the next lower gear (ie. 4 to 3 if you are moving at 50-60 MPH.)

I like to keep bikes up high in the power band, not this one, just another disappointing feature that a small percentage of us don't want or need.


Flame On

You should have got a 998 if you like to rev it up!!