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  1. #1
    Active Member Ryan12's Avatar
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    Default 2020 RT 1st oil change at 1600 miles

    So I know the 1st service is at 3000k miles, But I don't play well with that. A bit old school I guess so I had changed my oil at 1600 miles. And I find this (see pics) a drain plug that looks like Supermans man cave. All kinds of particles on the plug. Then I thought is this normal? Why would I want this stuff swimming around for another 1400 miles? Well I already decided to do another change at 3000 and see the difference. I sent a oil sample to Blackstone labs for analysis to start my base setting. I want to say this is normal as it is the break in period. But I have never seen this much FILTH MUCK on a drain plug.
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    Yikes, looks excessive, I did not ask my dealer tech how my oil was at 3K, I need to do that just for info.

  3. #3
    Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Peter Aawen's Avatar
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    From another of the numerous threads on oil changes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Aawen View Post
    I've been talking to a few of our local 'Engine Manufacturing Engineers' since my last post in this thread, and they reminded me that this is one time when it REALLY CAN HURT to change the oil too early!!

    Beyond Slider's post, they stressed that other thing to remember about WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT to leave your 'initial oil change' in the engine until it's scheduled change time is that while that 'first run & oil change in the manufacturing plant' that should address any FOD issues has almost always ALREADY BEEN DONE, the next oil change period is pretty much ESSENTIAL to the proper bedding in of your new engine's rings & bearings, valves, valve guides, etc etc!!

    That initial service period specified by the manufacturer has been calculated based upon the rate at which the 'as sold' oil fill collects all the microscopic contaminants & debris generated and then effectively shears down - so by replacing that oil early and putting in fresh oil that hasn't yet lost any viscosity/shear qualities or collected the microscopic bits that are essential for the proper bedding in of all those fairly important components, you are quite possibly (if not actually very likely! ) messing with their effective bedding in, and therefore you are quite likely harming your engine's potential life &/or performance, power output, & maybe even fuel economy, even if you don't ever recognise that because you'll never actually get to experience its full potential because you stuffed any chance of ever experiencing that full potential by changing the oil out TOO EARLY!!

    Still, as I said earlier, you've paid for it, so it's your engine, and you can do/throw whatever at it you feel like. However, it might pay to remember that there's usually a few reasons for those 'recommended oil change periods', and especially for the first one, leaving the 'as sold' oil fill in for that length of time is quite important to achieving the full potential of the engine as part of its 'bedding in' process, even if we don't actually need to use special 'running in oils' &/or do too much in the way of 'babying' the engine &/or driveline these days!!

    Good Luck!

    PS:
    Oh, and those previously mentioned Engineers also suggested that you should expect to see at least some fine metal debris (but hopefully not any chunks much larger than a fingernail cutting! ) collected by the magnet on the drain plug when you do (in the recommended course of time/distance travelled) get around to doing that initial oil change, cos that is evidence that your engine internals HAVE actually done what they need to do during that 'bedding in' process!! If there's NO sign of any of that metallic 'fur', then they suggested you may not have worked your engine hard enough to have done the 'bedding in' properly, or maybe you've just changed the oil out too early & it's still bedding in... or glazing in!

    Just Sayin'
    2013 RT Ltd Pearl White

  4. #4
    Very Active Member Mikey's Avatar
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    This one has been beat to death, and your findings are not the only one found that way!!! That being said, there are still guy's on here that insist that you have wasted your money on that oil change, because you didn't follow the book!!! I am not one of those people!! And I say good catch, and stay with your old gut feelings!!!!
    2012 RTL , Pearl

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    Very Active Member JayBros's Avatar
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    That clutch cover plug magnet did exactly what it is supposed to do. Those particles weren't swimming in the oil very long. It will be great if the OP shows us the plug at his 3K change. Dealership did my 3K and I didn't ask to see the plug, but when I did my first one at 7.3K total and on all the others since the 3K there has been virtually nothing on either plug. Added Dimple plugs at 14K and crankcase and clutch cover plug always look identical.
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  6. #6
    Active Member Ryan12's Avatar
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    I see your point now. I guess it will take a bit longer for the burn in. With that being said my Friend bought a 2018 RT and it only has 700 miles on it. So here is the question... Does he change oil or not? Its 3 yrs old but not even close to 3000 miles.

  7. #7
    aka: akspyderman ARtraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan12 View Post
    I see your point now. I guess it will take a bit longer for the burn in. With that being said my Friend bought a 2018 RT and it only has 700 miles on it. So here is the question... Does he change oil or not? Its 3 yrs old but not even close to 3000 miles.
    Sitting for three years? I would change the oil out just for peace of mind.
    [SIZE=1]
    [SIZE=1]Currently Owned: 2019 F3 Limited, 2020 F3 Limited

    Previously : 2008 GS-SM5 (silver), 2009 RS-SE5 (red), 2010 RT-S Premier Editon #474 (black) 2011 RT A&C SE5 (magnesium) 2014 RTS-SE6 (yellow) 2015 Vulcan 900 LT.

    7 Spyders, 12 years, 175,500 miles
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  8. #8
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    I think reality is a bit different than the perspective that an initial look might bring you to. This is not necessarily that bad. Your drain plug probably looked like that after the first 50 miles and hasn't changed all that much (if at all) since. So, another 1,400 miles would probably not have made any difference.

    If your engine is continually generating this kind of debris. And what you see is the result of an accumulation over time instead of an initial 'Clean-Up' event. Then new oil isn't going to change much, and your engine isn't going to last long no matter what you do. I don't think this is the case at all. Just trying to give you a bit different, and more likely sequence of how your drain plug got this way. Plus, your oil filter has taken out the finer and non ferrious particles. Which has, again, occurred and was done very early on in your motors life.

    It is the 2nd oil change that will tell you the full story. Hopefully, you changed the oil hot, right after riding so as to get everything possible out. If it was cold and sitting, you'll probably get the same thing on a smaller scale next time. Have your 2nd change oil analyzed. That is the only way to really know the condition of your internals. I wouldn't sweat it until then.

    It is a shame that BRP left that much material in your engine to start with. That is a bit disconcerting in this day and age. But long term, it probably won't make any difference.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 06-05-2021 at 09:54 AM.
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  9. #9
    Very Active Member ulflyer's Avatar
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    My F3 didn't have much of anything on it when I did the change around 2K miles or so. Same with second change around 4.5K. Will run that till I hit 9 or 10K.
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  10. #10
    Active Member WDAVEY's Avatar
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    Here's another fairly scientific explanation of WHY changing your oil too early is bad. Not just "because the book says so". LONG ARTICLE from another forum discussing diesel engines.
    STOP STOP STOP!

    The ORIGINAL factory APPROVED oil change interval is 30,000 miles! YES 30,000 MILES!!

    Did you comprehend that?

    THE ORGINAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL APPROVAL IS 30,000 MILES!!!

    Now that I have that off my chest,

    VW reduced the interval from 30,000 miles to 10,000 miles in the US market...any guesses why?

    Because people like you either:
    1) Can't read the owners manual
    2) Don't trust the car makers
    3) Can't follow directions
    4) Fail to adhere to the service indicator in the car

    VW does NOT want oil change intervals of less than 10,000 miles due to how the oils function in the engine, shorter intervals INCREASE WEAR, Don't argue with me about it, if you take the time to track wear rates during an oil change at 250 mile intervals you can plot the reduction and stabilization of the wear rates out beyond 25,000 miles!

    Think of oil as having 2 types of wear reducing additives, the first provides protection by/thru detergancy (cleansing of internal surfaces), dispersing soot, neutralizing acids (not an issue now with ULSD), and several other types as well. These additives are generally very specific to diesel engines and must pass specific tests in VW Diesel engines.

    The next type of additive is a wear additive. These protect the engine where the thickness of oil may be too thin to prevent metal to metal contact. Other additves in this type range also provide protection to the cam and lifters, engine bearings, piston wrist pins etc.

    Now pay attention, the 2nd group of additives account for less than 3% of the total volume of the oil. These additives also account for 90% of the engines oil protection! These additives require heat and pressure to bond with the critical wear surfaces, but due to the low percentage of additive in the oil they require time to fully place on those surfaces by the pressures of the component they are protecting. Example, an engine at operating temperature at the point where the cam presses on the lifter generates in excess of 90,000 psi, that pressure and the heat of the engine causes the 3% portion of the 1 micron thick oil film to form a crust or sacrifical layer at the point of contact. Since only 3% of the oil contains the wear additives, it requires hundreds of thousands of passes to generate a sufficient film to stop the wear at this specific point in the engine.

    Everybody is quick to make the arguement that the old oil had these additives so they are already in place, right? not quite!

    Remember the first type of additive? In that 1st group you had "detergents" that cleanse the inside of the motor. These cleansers are used up very rapidly after an oil change since they attack the remaining oil that was left after the oil change. These cleansers if you will also reduce the effectiveness of the high pressure wear additives...See where this is going?

    Before explaining further, after that initial period the dispersants in the oil work to prevent the adhering of the particles in the oil to any of the internal surfaces. These additives are often unique to diesel engines are also the reason why the oil looks so black so quickly, they are doing their job by preventing the soot from building up in any one place instead they are dispersed in the oil evenly throughout the oil sump which prevents sludging and other contamination related issues.

    Back to the detergents and the high pressure additives, the layers of high pressure additives leftover are not being replenished after the oil change due to the cleaning process that is going on with the new oil to neutralize the remaining acids, and other contaminants in the engine. As the cleaners in the oil are used up in the first 500-1000 miles, the wear additives are able to re-generate a protective layer in the engine that stops the wear at that location.

    You break down the oils life cycle like this:

    Phase 1: Detergants attack the internals removing accumlated contaminants, neutralize acids and force those into suspenstion in the oil. This period of time lasts between 500-1000 miles

    Phase 2: During the first 1000 miles the oils viscosity provides the majority of the wear protection by virtue of the film it creates on the surfaces. This phase generates relatively high wear rates but due to the short duration this is accepted due to the removal of contaminants that could result in long term damage to the motor. Wear rates in the period of time are generally speaking 5-10ppm per 1000 miles.

    Phase 3: Detergents are now used up and the oil additives are forming their protective layers in the "extreme pressure" regions of the motor. Now the oil additives are working in conjunction with the oil film and the wear rates drop from 10ppm per 1000 miles to around 1-2ppm per 1000 miles.

    Phase 4: Longterm peace! The oil is operating in a period of equilibrium, the wear additives are placed, Oil viscosity is in perfect range for the engine, Dispersants are continually working to prevent soot and other contaminants from accumulating on the surfaces and wear rates remain between 1-3ppm per 1000 miles.

    Phase 5: Oil run out, the oil during this phase begins to increase in viscosity (or thin in some cases), Extreme pressure additives begin to lose effectiveness due to increased concentrations of wear particles (VW tests out to 8%, most oil changes never see in excess of 2% after 30,000 miles). This is when you begin to see a rise in the wear metal formation in the engine. Often wear metals during this phase rise to the 3-8ppm per 1000 mile range. Notice that the wear metals being generated are still LOWER than they were in the first 1000 miles?

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    When somebody says they are going to change the oil every 5000 miles or twice as often they are DOUBLING the number of detergent cycles and DOUBLING the number of cycles where the engine is running at it's highest wear rates!

    PPM/Fe (generation of Fe in 1000 mile increments)
    Short drain intervals
    1K oil change
    10ppm = 10ppm in 1000 miles = 10ppm/1000 miles

    3K oil change
    10+2+2 = 14ppm in 3000 miles = 4.6ppm/1000 miles

    5K oil change
    10+2+2+2+2: Change oil = 18ppm in 5000 miles = 3.6ppm/1000 miles

    Long drain intervals
    10K oil change
    10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3 = 29 ppm in 10,000 miles = 2.9ppm/1000 miles

    15K oil change
    10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 44ppm in 15,000 miles = 2.9 ppm/1000 miles

    20K oil change
    10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+4+4 = 61ppm in 20,000 miles = 3.3ppm/1000 miles

    When ppm of Fe per 1000 miles reaches 5-7ppm per 1000 miles you can consider the oil ready for a change...

    The above is based on real world TDI oil samples.

    I have personally used up to 25,000 mile oil drain intervals on my TDI and still never reached the 5-7ppm range! I changed it at that time due to soot and TBN depletion (high sulfur fuel at the time).

    Anybody that tells you that short oil drain intervals are good for your motor don't know what they are talking about!

  11. #11
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Absolutely normal and expected. That is not engine debris, it is the gearbox breaking in.

    As mentioned if should diminish with additional miles.

    While I do not object to an early oil and filter change, you should run the oem Can Am oil until around 3000 miles. You might consider placing your filter in a sealed plastic bag. Just in case warranty concerns arrise.
    2014 RTS , Nippon Denso plugs no Pearl White

  12. #12
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    This is one very interesting thread, at least to me as a newby. My dealer told tech guy told me one year or 3K miles, and that was the advice I followed. My 20 RTL was the year of the dreaded covid, and so my miles was 2200 or thereabouts at the first service. It is what it is now, and can't change history. Hopefully, no harm done.

  13. #13
    Very Active Member Mikey's Avatar
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    And the beat go's on!!! We are not buying a full blown race motor when we buy one of these bikes! They are not putting some kind of break in oil in these things, just there run of the mill motor oil that we buy from them over the self from them! So if a person wants to change there oil and filter ahead of the prescribed time what is the big deal, really guy's If it was a tight race motor, souped the gill's then I would be right beside you all of the way!!! I will get off the box now and say have a good day!!
    2012 RTL , Pearl

  14. #14
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    And the beat go's on!!! We are not buying a full blown race motor when we buy one of these bikes! They are not putting some kind of break in oil in these things, just there run of the mill motor oil that we buy from them over the self from them! So if a person wants to change there oil and filter ahead of the prescribed time what is the big deal, really guy's If it was a tight race motor, souped the gill's then I would be right beside you all of the way!!! I will get off the box now and say have a good day!!
    Yes and no. Unlike most cars, these engines have Nikasil cylinder walls. Nikasil is a very hard coating that last a long time. To properly deglaze a Nikasil cylinder, the correct way is with a diamond hone. Saying that to give an idea on how tough Nikasil is.

    To compare, on aircraft, sometimes cylinder wall are chromed. Chrome cylinders require a rigorous break in. No babying the engine and certainly not standard oil. If the cylinders are not correctly broken in, the cylinder wall can have issues or even more likely, rings will not bed in correctly.

    Compared to the Spyder with Nikasil, better to give at least a couple thousand miles on lesser oils to let the rings fully bed in. After that, running good oil is not an issue.

    Can you run good oil from the beginning, probably, but if not run hard, and the rings fail to bed in, it will be a story of oil consumption.

    Simply sharing what I know and have experience with. How others decide and what they do is fine by me.
    2014 RTS , Nippon Denso plugs no Pearl White

  15. #15
    Very Active Member Mikey's Avatar
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    All I am saying is that BRP is putting there oil in from the start, nothing more!! And if some one changes the oil to get the filings out early there's no harm harm in that! I have been dealing with Nikasil for years in my snowmobiles, do I break them in slow, Yup, do I add a little oil in the tank to give it a little extra lube, Yup! I also have friends that take them out of the box and drive them like they stole them, I am not a fan of that, but 90% of the time they get just as far I do on a top end! If they were using a additive for breaking in a new motor, I would say heck yes you have to go 3000 miles on that oil then change it and go to the 8-9000 from there!! It's just oil, and with the op, he's with out the extra filings from where ever they came from, that's cheap insurance in my book!
    2012 RTL , Pearl

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