RT rescued from graveyard

[megagame]

OK, your .pl address did reject the zip file. Let me know if the .eu one comes through.

Thank you again. This is huge help.

I already see there is a difference in message id between my model 2011 and yours 2014.
What is probably the same: TCM (0x220, 0x222), SAS (0x0C3)
Difference: YRS (mine 0x303, yours I don't know

VCM is sending 0x230, 0x430 and 0x020, but I don't see 0x580 and 0x581 (might be before log started)

Because of difference in YRS sensor data (which is used by ABS) it is possible that moving ABS/VCM unit from newer model to older might require installing newer YRS as well.
ABS, 3xVSS, YRS and SAS are linked together in one system. Probably newer ABS unit will not be able to read old YRS data (0x303).

0x330 - resposible for DPS, always sends same data which means that torque values are in different message.

I've tried to analyze all messages and I came up with 3 different messages (0x122, 0x150, 0x343) and one of them might be DPS torque sensor data.
To indicate precisely which one is from DPS I would need to understand how DPS works. Basically, when DPS motor is turned on and how it feels on steering.
I would expect that DPS will turn the assistance when torque is sensed, and it will try to minimize torque required to steer left or right. This would mean that I will see spike in torque applied, steering angle starts to change
and afterwards torque starts to get lower when DPS assistance is turned on. I don't see that unfortunately.

What I see is that within timespan of 12s steering is moved to right, left, right left and so on.
Data which looks like torque (0x150) changes in first 4s and later is mostly the same.
There is one bit in 0x150 which changes after 0,5s when steering is sensed, and after 2s it is back to old state.

IdahoMtnSpyder - are you able to say when DPS assist is turned on?

It would be interesting to see how my VCM will behave when I will introduce 0x150 in my CAN bus.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

My nephew has a 2010 RT. I'll see if I can get him to let me record what his machine does. My understanding of the DPS is the amount and timing of the assist depends on what the torque sensor detects for turning torque. That may be tough to measure while the bike is parked and running. It's winter time so I won't be able to record anything while I'm riding until about March or
April.

[megagame]

No need to go that far and make further recordings. I already have lots of data to analize.
My question was about how do you "feel" DPS is working and if it works instantly from the start, but I think I know the answer and I should make deeper analysis.

I will get back to this topic later. Now I need to prepare everything for inspection and first registration.

[megagame]

Every part I've received with spyder is somehow damaged, especially plastic parts.

Glove box had one arm broken and missing so I've had to made it from scratch.

[megagame]

I don't have cable for glove box, but I have cable for front trunk which will be made by me. So I used front trunk cable for glove box. It is a bit short and needs to be carefully placed under glove box, but it works.
I've had to add proper ending for cable (universal cable end) to keep it in place.

[megagame]

While I was working on cables I added trunk latch from minicooper (10$) which already has electric actuator.

Again, some modifications needs to be done and universal ending for cable is used to make it work.

[megagame]

Next part is console. This one was also damaged. Whole top of console was broken and missing. I've used already damaged parts (PP) from another motorcycle and made new top of console. It's not perfect but top is not seen during normal ride - it just needs to be there.

[megagame]

Same problem with belt cover. Broken in half. Welded on both sides, additional weld inside to make part stronger and 100, then 200 grit sandpaper on "visible" surface.

[megagame]

No bracket for catalyzer? Steel place, hammer, drill and it's done. Rubber pieces (not visible on photo) used from broken ABS .

[megagame]

No rubber mounts and steel plate to hold stabilizer bar. Same thing: steel, drill and hammer. Rubber mounts made from rubber plate bought in shop with industrial sealants. I've used small knife to cut rubber to proper shape.

[megagame]

It already starts to look like something

[acdcking12]

That looks fantastic already. Well done sir.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

My question was about how do you "feel" DPS is working and if it works instantly from the start, but I think I know the answer and I should make deeper analysis.

My experience is that about the only time you can tell when DPS is working, is when it is not! The application of assistive torque is so smooth and gradual, and variable, there is no way to detect by feel when and if the DPS is assisting. I'm going to guess that as you go around a curve the torque the rider applies to the handlebar is maybe 30 to 40% of the total turning torque. At the start of a turn the torque is close to zero so the DPS adds zero torque. But as the torque requirement goes up, the amount added by the DPS goes up. When the DPS in my 2013 RT was acting up, and kicking in and out, I could really tell when it kicked in. If I was in a hard turn, like a freeway exit loop, and the DPS wasn't working, and then all of a sudden it did start working, the extra torque I was applying to the handlebar would make me suddenly turn so much I almost went off the road to the inside of the curve. A DPS that kicks in and out can actually be dangerous.

Hope this helps.

[megagame]

Thanks. This means it will be hard to determinate precisely algorithm responsible for amount of assist. But, it sure works all the time when torque is applied.

[bluewoo]

megagame, thank you for this! I really enjoy the reading and all the sweat you've put into this old spyder plus keeping all of us up to date.
I have my fingers crossed that it will be a success, But from what you've shown us I don't think you need any luck.
Team effort

[megagame]

I've been hunting for front panels for some time, and winter is almost over in Poland. Once it will be more than 8*C I will continue my work.

For now small update. I've bought used front trunk and seal was missing. I've bought universal EPDM seal called "Edge Trim Profile with Top Seal". Around 140cm is needed but i suggest buyng 150cm and cutting excess material.
Cost of seal should be around 4$ per meter, 6$ total.




I didn't have lock with handle for rear trunk so I bought one from different spyder. I've removed "lock insert" by pushing lock pins (from behind of the handle) with needle and pushing the insert out. With the insert separated from handle I've put my key inside the lock and shaved pins with the file so that pins won't stick out with my key inside. Since I don't have master key I've left last pin untouched because it holds the lock inside the handle.

[safecracker]

Great job...

[megagame]

So, winter has ended and finally it started to get wormer here where I live.

I didn't touch the issue regarding programming the bypass for ABS. This topis is a little bit bigger because of modifications in braking system. I'm planning to have front brake lever on handlebar and both brakes working in foot brake. All parts are already waiting to be installed but I'm working on something else now.

Since I didn't have some smaller parts I've started designing them in Fusion 360 and learn 3d printing with PETG.
First Ive designed handle for trunk hood. Printing it took around 18h. Fortunately everything was measured correctly and I've only had to drill holes in correct places.






Now I'm working on base plate and front shield for my custom mirrors which are coming from 90s Fiat Uno :P.

I've had to print 4 base plates, and modify the model slightly after each print, before final version was (almost) perfectly aligned. I still have to design front guard on which I will place front blinkers.
Base plate is gray, but guard will be pearl gold. Maybe I will print base plate again if it will not look good, or I will put carbon fiber skin on it - I have some laying around.







Oh, and finally my seat is working correctly. I've made new bracket to hold it in place.

[megagame]

So, winter has ended and finally it started to get wormer here where I live.

I didn't touch the issue regarding programming the bypass for ABS. This topis is a little bit bigger because of modifications in braking system. I'm planning to have front brake lever on handlebar and both brakes working in foot brake. All parts are already waiting to be installed but I'm working on something else now.

Since I didn't have some smaller parts I've started designing them in Fusion 360 and learn 3d printing with PETG.
First Ive designed handle for trunk hood. Printing it took around 18h. Fortunately everything was measured correctly and I've only had to drill holes in correct places.






Now I'm working on base plate and front shield for my custom mirrors which are coming from 90s Fiat Uno :P.

I've had to print 4 base plates, and modify the model slightly after each print, before final version was (almost) perfectly aligned. I still have to design front guard on which I will place front blinkers.
Base plate is gray, but guard will be pearl gold. Maybe I will print base plate again if it will not look good, or I will put carbon fiber skin on it - I have some laying around.







Oh, and finally my seat is working correctly. I've made new bracket to hold it in place.


Back is also almost finished. I still need to design base plates for blinkers which will be on covers for side cases, but mirrors are most important now. Once this is finished finally I'll be able to register the bike and go for a short ride.

[safecracker]

WOW, you are doing an amazing job. Looks good. Keep us posted.

[megagame]

More than a year have passed since my last post. I haven't got time to do anything with spyder during my absence,
I've had another big failure though. During winter in -20* C I went for a ride and my cluster stopped working. After checking electronic components and UART debug channel I've discovered that flash memory not appropriate for cold weather was used. I hope newer models are made with better QA, mine is way too problematic. I've kept the screen and removed internal electronics. After overcoming my fear of soldering and programming microcontrollers (Teensy 4 to be exact), I now have snake game on my spyder .

This is just an intro without any exciting photos. For now only screen from todays work. Guess what it is.

[Rider Steve]

I know there are people out there that switch to Rotax engines on their Ultralight aircraft. They buy used Rotax snowmobile engines to do this. Some make harnesses that do away with most of the electronic crap the snowmobiles have on them. Just a thought.

[MrMagicFingers]

I've bought this one for 2,5k USD. My goal was to keep within 5k USD but ABS unit did not allow that.
To be honest when I bought this spyder I didn't know how many things could fail because of bad engineering. Normally I don't use cars/bikes with too much electronics. I have older Hilux, Honda from 93 and old bikes like KLX 650 from 94. They all run great. If something happens you can fix them with simple tools. This is not the case with spyder and this is bad judgement from my side. But, I still want to learn how things are done and want to be first to fix problems which are giving people headache.

Also, I hate when things (expensive and cheap) are thrown to garbage.

Looks great on you!!!! Well done!

Who says that you have to have a reason besides just wanting to do it. You will learn a lot and from a completely different viewpoint than 99.9 % of the rest of us.

Keep up the great work!

Tim

[Haze]

Incredible work and great attention to detail.
I will be watching for further reports.
Cheers, David C.

[megagame]

I've been busy with another project for some time, but fortunately I've had free 2 weeks to analyze all can bus communication with my software which makes Man in the middle attack on bus communication. With that these are the results for older RT:

message

constant

device

module

comment

b0

b1

b2

b3

b4

b5

b6

b7

example

020

VCM

bits informing about error in module: vss, vss, -, abs, no parking brake

default 00, different number if error exists

00 00 FF FF 00 00 00 00

0C3

steering angle sensor

02 01 81 01 00 00 00 01

102

ECM

rpm / 64

something related to RPM

engine temp from -60*C

ambient temp from -60*C

kPa * 2 (max 126 kPa)

counter

crc8

103

ECM

throttle lever

first byte is throttle lever value 00-FF, rest is empty

counter

crc8

120

ECM

220

yes

TCM

counter

crc8

0B FE FE FF FE 02 0C 04

222

TCM

have only two values

230

VCM

ABS speed values

b5 continuation

km/h * 10

300

yes

ECM

00 -> D3 after moto start

00 00 FF FF 00 00 00 00

303

YRS

counter

308

ECM

bits: low bat, -, -, -, engine hi temp, -, oil switch

310

ECM

gears: 1-6, 7 neutral, 8 reverse

changes to 2 when there is ABS pressure and 3 when BLS engages

counter

crc8

330

DPS

error code, 99 99 - no error

counter

crc8

340

left buttons

bits: up, down, left, right, menu, set, fron button (com?)

bits: windshield up, windshield down

bits: gear up, gear down

341

one time after cluster is connected but probably not cluster itself, more like buttons

342

ECM

probably vsm error, shows 40 6c after 5s when vcp reports 4044 (C0044)

400

CLUSTER

byte 6: value from 1 to 3 after parking brake sensor is "closed". BUDS shows that parking brake sensor is "closed" even without cluster so there must be conneciton to sensor in more than one place

counter

crc8

401.0

CLUSTER

probably time after system energized

0

ss (in hex not dec)

mm (in hex not dec)

hh (in hex not dec)

401.1

CLUSTER

1

401.2

CLUSTER

total distance, m/10 on four bytes

2

dist b3

disc b2

dist b1

dist b0

401.3

CLUSTER

trip a

3

sec/10, higher bits

sec/10, lower bits

401.4

CLUSTER

trip b

4

sec/10, higher bits

sec/10, lower bits

401.5

CLUSTER

5

401.6

CLUSTER

6

"ACS level: 0011 1110 lowest 0110 1100 1001 1010 [1100 1000 1111 0110 highest"

ACS height, higher bits

ACS height, lower bits

ACS buttons, 32/16/8 -> not pressed/down/up

402

LCD

shown after lcd is ready, probably required for starting the motor

430

VCM

contains brake pressure value (ss ss 00 00 3E 01 0x 3x where 3e rises with pressure, ss ss - 99 99 default, otherwise error code np. 40 44)

counter

crc8

460

PBM

514

CLUSTER

515

yes

516

ECM

580,581

VCM

only once when VCM is starting

591

LCD

shown after menu is pressed, probably required for starting the motor

0x713 CLUSTER tx - removing active errors 04 03 14 00 00 00 00 00 14 - function
0x71C WMP tx - removing active errors 0D 03 14 00 00 00 00 00
0x710 ECM tx - removing active errors 01 03 14 00 00 00 00 00
0x715 VCM tx - removing active errors 06 03 14 FF 00 00 00 00
0x717 probably ECM tx - removing active errors 06 03 14 00 00 00 00 00

0x715 VCM tx - active error cchanged to occured 06 02 10 89 00 00 00 00 this one must be present with next one
0x715 VCM tx - active error cchanged to occured 06 02 10 81 00 00 00 00