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  1. #1
    Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
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    Default Small Tutorial on Packing Wheel Bearings

    Disclaimer- Don't do this, it may cause the wheels to fall off!

    So youve procured some Made In XXXX (Preferred Country of Choice) bearings off of the InterWebs! Did you know that the bearing has a specified shelf life as denoted by the manufacturer? All bearings do. The oil slowly seeps out of the base, and or decomposes over time (a relatively long time, but nonetheless).
    1-Greasing Bearings American Made.jpg

    So, the best thing to do is inspect them closely and maybe clean and repack them. If theyve been sitting in a non climate controlled location for 10 years, they may be pitted inside. If you want to inspect them get a very small (I use a jewelers) screwdriver, and gently work it through the seal against the inside race. Align the flat point blade against the race and slide it gently under the lip, then it will easily go to the inside. Pry up and the seal should pop out of the outside race. Then you can just walk it around and remove it. Do both sides. Dont know if you can remove metal shields on electric motor bearings though.
    2-Greasing Bearings Pop the Seal.jpg

    You may be alarmed at the small quantity of grease in the bearing. From what Ive learned the bearing is filled about 30% from most manufacturers. Grease quantities are generally for much higher shaft speeds than the Spyder can put on the bearings, with 14,000 rated RPMs with grease that the bearings are rated for as far as speed and heat. Spyders turn 845 rear wheel RPM or less at 60 MPH (225/50R15-845 revolutions per mile @ 1 mile per minute), so double that and get 1690 RPMs at 120 MPH). Nowhere near the rated 14,000 RPMs, only 12.1% of rating. Very lightly loaded. With that lower RPM you can carry a bigger grease load, but never, ever fill the bearing full. 50-60% fill is good.
    3-Greasing Bearings Where's the Grease.jpg 4-Greasing Bearings Grease- All There Is.jpg

    Clean the bearings. A lot of greases used in ball bearings are very incompatible with other greases. I flush it out and then blow it with air. Never spin a bearing with air; they can kill you if they come apart. Always protect your eyes and hands when doing this kind of stuff. Let any solvents dry out completely after cleaning the bearing.
    5-Greasing Bearings Clean.jpg

    Repack with your favorite grease. Almost any good disc brake rated grease will work, as long as its NLGI2 and disc brake rated. I wont tell you what I use, wouldnt want to influence you. Do not fill the bearing cavity full; a 50% fill is adequate. Press the seals back in place and spin the bearing to distribute the grease. Dont want to start this bearing with any non-lubricated rollers.
    6-Greasing Bearings Repack.jpg
    h0gr1der
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  2. #2
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    Thank you for the tutorial on bearing lubrication.
    Eckhard

    Spyder RT Ltd, 2011

  3. #3
    Very Active Member Purple Guy's Avatar
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    Nice Job!
    Thanks for your contribution!

  4. #4
    Very Active Member Grandpot's Avatar
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    I teach fitting of bearings and rebuilding lathe spindles. I agree with all your comments. Good advice.
    2011 RTS
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    Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
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    I did this because there a lot of people like me that don't understand how simple some seemingly complex things can be. I still have very much to learn about the Spyder, but am learning at a fast clip. It is, after all, a machine.
    h0gr1der
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    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    FWIW, i have been doing this for several decades on motorcycles and bicycles. You can fill 100% with no failures or concerns other than you will see excess grease weep out from under the lip of the seal.

    Filling 100% minimizes water intrusion.

    As for the lubricant you chose, that is one of my favorites for many items, however in sealed bearing application, I am experiencing very low durations before the bearings need to be redone. Low duration as in about 1000 miles on the bicycle crank bearings. We have even suffered bearing failures on the tandem mountain bike related to lubricant breakdown. I have not redone the Spyder as of yet.

    I realize your previous topic discussed the bearing clearance or C rating. With it known the Spyder rear wheel bearings are often a tight drive or press fit into the hub, this can close that tolerance and suggests the bearing smoothness and friction drag be inspected upon installation.

    All the best with it.

  7. #7
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    In your research, did you come across any quality bearings that were offered in the proper sizes that were full compliment cageless styles? Was considering upgrading possibly, but laziness will likely see me utilize caged conventional bearings.

  8. #8
    Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    FWIW, i have been doing this for several decades on motorcycles and bicycles. You can fill 100% with no failures or concerns other than you will see excess grease weep out from under the lip of the seal.

    Filling 100% minimizes water intrusion.

    As for the lubricant you chose, that is one of my favorites for many items, however in sealed bearing application, I am experiencing very low durations before the bearings need to be redone. Low duration as in about 1000 miles on the bicycle crank bearings. We have even suffered bearing failures on the tandem mountain bike related to lubricant breakdown. I have not redone the Spyder as of yet.

    I realize your previous topic discussed the bearing clearance or “C” rating. With it known the Spyder rear wheel bearings are often a tight drive or press fit into the hub, this can close that tolerance and suggests the bearing smoothness and friction drag be inspected upon installation.

    All the best with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    In your research, did you come across any quality bearings that were offered in the proper sizes that were full compliment cageless styles? Was considering upgrading possibly, but laziness will likely see me utilize caged conventional bearings.
    PMK,

    I am not a bearing or lubrication guru. The bearings I chose were normal clearance, though I wonder if using a C3 clearance may be a good choice with all the tolerance issues I saw using a simple dial caliper. The tolerances are poor on this piece of equipment.

    I specifically did not recommend a lubricant because everyone has their favorite. For those interested in studying lubrication I offer this; https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php When I was in the industry, the chemical salesmen came around peddling their particular brand of snake oil, and when you pulled the MSDS on the products, some things became very apparent. There are only so many products that work well, usually a pretty limited number in fact. I feel like grease is one of those things. Some greases do things better than others, but for a specific purpose there are a few select that work best. Lithium complex, proprietary blends that target one specific area (I think boat trailers here, water resistance over all, but pretty stiff, doesn't flow well). You get the idea. Whatever works for you. What do you use? I am flexible to change my opinion based on facts.

    Maybe bicycle cranks would be better served by NLGI1 grease, which may flow better at the temperatures they see.

    I did not see a cageless design, but that would be a good idea. More square inches equals less pounds per square inch. But I'm still struggling with all the crazy bearing nomenclature of all the different manufacturers just to try to find compatible bearings. There's a rash of made in France and Italy bearings available on ebay for those that don't want Chinese bearings, but I haven't got a clue if they're any better than the OEM ones. I am returning some that were sold to me as made in USA, but arrived saying made in Argentina. Part of the endeavor I guess.

    As to fill, I'm not second guessing the bearing engineers. Yes, our bearings are very low load and slow speed for application, but 100% of manufacturers technical papers say filling 100% is a bad thing. I can't argue with that, and don't know enough about it to disagree. With the double seal system, I think water intrusion will be a non-issue. Any moisture that penetrates the wheel bearing seals will meet the sealed bearing seals.
    h0gr1der
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  9. #9
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    I find the posts about bearings pretty interesting. Most, like this one, can be helpful and some are just plain wrong. I spent 15 years rewinding and rebuilding electric motors and other large industrial equipment. We rebuilt stuff the size of your fist up to the size of your garage. I did mostly rewinding and rewiring, but worked closely with the mechanics on projects that often took more than one guy. We used bearings that cost two dollars all the way up to bearings that cost the same as your new pick up truck. One hard and fast rule was that you NEVER, EVER struck or "drove" a bearing onto a shaft or into a housing. Getting caught with a hammer anywhere near a bearing would get you to the unemployment line very quickly. However, we did have the equipment to heat, cool, or press the bearings to get them into place. A bearing is a precision item. Would you use a hammer to install your new electronic gauge cluster? Why hammer on the bearings? Are you one who replaces wheel bearings at each tire change or every other tire change? If you do this for peace of mind that is fine. If you do it because there is a bearing that is going bad then you have a problem. A properly installed, aligned, and torqued bearing is not going to fail between tire changes and will probably be going strong at 100,000 miles. This is one reason that torque settings are important when tightening the axle nuts. Ball bearings like those used in our bikes are very durable, but it takes a very small amount of pressure from the side to ruin one very quickly. They are not designed or intended to have this type of load put on them. That's what tapered roller bearings like those used in automobile wheels are for. Ball bearings will fail quickly if the side loads are extreme. Torque your axles properly and to spec. I have seen sealed bearings as described above used in bike wheels. I have also seen shielded and open bearings used in bike wheels. I like the sealed for obvious reasons, but shielded work just fine as long as the wheel seals are in good shape. The open bearings are usually seen in applications where dirt isn't an issue, but lubrication is. A good example would be inside your engine or transmission. What's amazing is the large number of bearings that fail because they were actually damaged during installation. It doesn't take much to damage a ball bearing during installation because of the inability of the bearing to manage side loads well. I hear and read just tap on the inner race or the outer to avoid damage. Wrong. It just takes a very small and I mean VERY small piece of the race to break or even crack and you have just set up the bearing for early failure. Bearings are hardened and the metal is brittle they chip and crack easily and damage isn't always visible. What country a bearing is manufactured in doesn't guarantee quality although I do avoid the Chinese stuff. I've dealt with quality from around the world as well as junk made right here in the U.S. Think about this. What part of our Spyder is manufactured to the tolerances that the bearings are? What parts of our Spyders are expected to take the extremes that the bearings are expected to tolerate? Think of the number of bearings at work in our Spyders. Precision pieces of equipment and people still insist on the beat em to fit and paint em to match method of installation. One other bit of info before I stop this long winded and boring speech. If you have a bearing that has a rough or tight spot or is making any noise REPLACE it. That is a sign of a failing bearing and you CANNOT grease or lube away the problem. Sure it may smooth out or quiet down for a short time, but the damage is done and it WILL fail and soon. Probably during the first after dark cloudburst you get caught in

  10. #10
    Active Member FlyBoy2121's Avatar
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    I Navydad

    As you say a speech a little long, but you're absolutely right down the line.
    I worked 11 years of car mechanics for a taxi company, later mechanic industrial machinist, J, have install and change bearings often, everything you say is very important.

    Great !!!!!

    FlyBoy2121

  11. #11
    Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
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    I did come across a very disheartening bit of news the other day. Apparently the bearing market is being flooded with counterfeit (Chinese, who else?) bearings, and all the main brands are affected. So much so that SKF has come up with an app for your smart phone called SKF Authenticate. So of all the searching for NOS made in USA bearings, it may all be for naught. From what I read, the only protection against this is to buy from a main known bearing distributor of the brand/line you prefer and pay the piper. I'm going to try to narrow my choice by seeing if a 6205-2RS is available in a P5 or P6 tolerance class, which may exclude some of the more generic bearings.
    h0gr1der
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  12. #12
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Yuasa batteries too are counterfeited. Apparently enough that Yuasa has published a guide on how to help identify them and may even have a hotline of sorts to check serial numbers.

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    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Wanted to add, regarding filling the bearings 100%, sealed bearings on the KTM, and other off road motorcycles, which will generate the added heat possibly lacking in the bicycle, are done to prevent water intrusion. Like the bicycle, with use, excess grease is slowly expelled out under the seals lip. Actually not very much is excess, and it gets wiped away.

    If the bearings were used in a high rpm installation, there is no way I would fill them 100% full. However low rpm such as wheels is a non issue.

  14. #14
    Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Wanted to add, regarding filling the bearings 100%, sealed bearings on the KTM, and other off road motorcycles, which will generate the added heat possibly lacking in the bicycle, are done to prevent water intrusion. Like the bicycle, with use, excess grease is slowly expelled out under the seals lip. Actually not very much is excess, and it gets wiped away.

    If the bearings were used in a high rpm installation, there is no way I would fill them 100% full. However low rpm such as wheels is a non issue.
    PMK,

    I've just got off the phone with Mobil engineering, they say the grease pictured is their best for wheel bearings, even better than the Mobil 222 Timken recommends. So what do you pack your bearings with?

    On a side note, SKF Authenticate got back with me and said that it appears my NOS SKF Made in USA bearing are authentic. Yay!
    h0gr1der
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    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by h0gr1der View Post
    PMK,

    I've just got off the phone with Mobil engineering, they say the grease pictured is their best for wheel bearings, even better than the Mobil 222 Timken recommends. So what do you pack your bearings with?

    On a side note, SKF Authenticate got back with me and said that it appears my NOS SKF Made in USA bearing are authentic. Yay!
    First off, very cool you got legit bearings.

    As for the grease, yes, Mobil 1 automotive grease. Not thinned or aged, but fresh. As I explained, in the sealed bearing application, we just never seem to get long life.

    In roller bearing setups, I run this in the RT622 trailer. Most automotive applications in our house, that have repackable tapered roller bearings, require a moly enhanced grease, and get that.

    On the KTM, that gets Bel Ray grease. The waterproof stuff they sell for moto applications.

    Over the years, in the sealed ball bearings, it seems the best results were with Aeroshell 5. Aeroshell 7 was too pasty. I have even used Krytox in some applications. With good results.

    Do not take it wrong, I truly like Mobil 1 grease and Mobil 1 products, simply in the sealed bearings I tend to see short durations before the grease breaks down, and you can actually hear the bearings acting up. You are very thorough and detailed in your research and selection of products. Did you explain to the Mobil rep these wheel bearings are not tapered roller bearings with the typical reservoir of grease between the pair of cups, and clearly explain these are sealed ball bearings used as wheel bearings?

  16. #16
    Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Do not take it wrong, I truly like Mobil 1 grease and Mobil 1 products, simply in the sealed bearings I tend to see short durations before the grease breaks down, and you can actually hear the bearings acting up. You are very thorough and detailed in your research and selection of products. Did you explain to the Mobil rep these wheel bearings are not tapered roller bearings with the typical reservoir of grease between the pair of cups, and clearly explain these are sealed ball bearings used as wheel bearings?
    PMK,

    Yes, I actually did. The Timken Grease selector (http://www.timken.com/wp-content/upl...4reference.pdf) recommended Mobil XHP 222 (Timken Premium All Purpose Industrial Grease) for deep groove ball bearings, but when I called Mobil engineering they said for the slow speed operation on ball type wheel bearings the regular stuff in the tub was actually better. I'm always up for overkill, lubricants especially. I've had good results from Shell products as well. The T6 threads reference it as an excellent product, and that's what I run in all my diesels. I'll look into the Aeroshell 5. Thanks. BTW, if you're teaching me, you can't hurt my feelings. I've had instructors that taught like old school military drill instructors.
    h0gr1der
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  17. #17
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by h0gr1der View Post
    PMK,

    Yes, I actually did. The Timken Grease selector (http://www.timken.com/wp-content/upl...4reference.pdf) recommended Mobil XHP 222 (Timken Premium All Purpose Industrial Grease) for deep groove ball bearings, but when I called Mobil engineering they said for the slow speed operation on ball type wheel bearings the regular stuff in the tub was actually better. I'm always up for overkill, lubricants especially. I've had good results from Shell products as well. The T6 threads reference it as an excellent product, and that's what I run in all my diesels. I'll look into the Aeroshell 5. Thanks. BTW, if you're teaching me, you can't hurt my feelings. I've had instructors that taught like old school military drill instructors.
    This time, not teaching, merely sharing experiences, good and bad. If Mobil 1 grease works well, please share. Actually, since you did the research on the bearings, can you PM me your source for the high quality USA bearings. thanks

  18. #18
    Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    PM me your source for the high quality USA bearings. thanks
    Mr. PMK,

    That is a truly tragic story. I lucked up, sourced bearings from a reclamation service on ebay. Only after I whipped the bearings in the hub did I learn about all the counterfeiting going on. I has been suggested that the counterfeiting is a hoax perpetrated by bearing companies to make you buy from distributors, but I have personally had some counterfeit products from ebay, so I can't ignore that. So I used SKF authenticate to see if the bearings pass muster, and they did. But another very knowledgeable member showed me the error of my ways as far as installation practices (beating vs pressing), so I bought the Can Am installation tools, sending them to the machine shop for modification, and using them to pull the new bearings in (all thread). It's hell being ignorant! Anyway, the SKF folks said that if their SKF Explorer series aren't from Argentina, they're either old stock or counterfeit. Why chance it? Costs about $10 each on ebay, about $20 from Motion. Can't get the double roller bearing in SKF, only NSK.

    As an addendum, it's not so much about Made in USA, it's way more about NOT Made in China.
    Last edited by h0gr1der; 06-11-2019 at 09:01 AM. Reason: omission
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    Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
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    As an Addendum to this thread, let's talk about the greases in the 6205 and 30BD40DF2 bearings we're putting in these machines. I've spoken to quite a few engineers at the major companies, and all of them had a common theme.

    I called NSK about the 30BD40DF2 double row bearings, and found out they use a grease specified as ENS or ENR the majority of the time. I talked to him about using the bearing as an axle bearing, he (and most of the other engineers) said the grease and grease fill volume were slated for high speed, high temperature operation. Asked about slow speed axle service, he responded that the oil in the ENR/ENS grease was a little thin for wheel bearing use, and pulled up the spec for it. The viscosity of the box stock 30BD40DF2 bearing grease oil at 40C (104F) is 30.5 Centistokes, falls to 5.4 Centistokes at 100C. (212F). Just as a contrast, Mobile 1 Synthetic grease is 220 Centistokes at 40C (104F), and falls to 23.8 Centistokes at 100C. (212F).

    I know that's a lot of technical mumbo-jumbo, but it means something. Almost to a tee, the engineers at the major bearing manufacturers stated that while the greases were OK for any service, a true wheel bearing grease would be better in the service we're using, and that filling the bearing 100% was bad, recommending bringing the fill from the 20-30% up to 50-60% with a premium wheel bearing grease with EP additives.

    Maybe this is a contributing factor in the Spyder's rear wheel bearing short life span.
    h0gr1der
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