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  1. #26
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    My right to own and use aftermarket exhausts shall not be infringed! They'll have to pry my pipes from my cold, dead, hands!
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  2. #27
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    Just wait for the time to come when it is decided that for the best of society people may no longer ride motorcycles. Be careful allowing them to chip away at us, a little here and a little there, determined by what some feel is best for "society." That doesn't always end well or where you expected.

  3. #28
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    This is not a subject that usually interests me but I do have to chime in here. I find it offensive whe HD riders have to irritate others by blipping the throttle when stopped at a stop light. Just flexing their exhaust. No reason other than trying to be macho. And if loud pipes save lives, why do people ever get hit by trains.... Jim
    Platinum Silver Satin 2014 RTL, Driver Backrest. Baha Ron Bar, Elka Shocks, Hiway pegs, Lighted Bump Skid, Centramatic Wheel Balancers, Wide Vu Mirrors, Third Tail/Brake light, Missing Belt Guard, Federal Formoza front and General Altimax rear tires, Squared Away, Mirror turn signals, Vibration Damper, Magnetic Mirrors, Matching RT622 Trailer.....Semper Fi....

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  4. #29
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    Before y'all start waxing poetic about how great the EPA and carb laws are, I'll give you some food for thought.
    I drive a truck. I actually own it and am pleased to a rather fantastic company.
    Mine is a 1998 model with a Detroit Series 60 engine.
    Before they started dicking around with pollution crap.
    If I had to replace it today, I would be paying more than $50,000.00 for a DEF system that if it has a pr, most mechanics have no clue what to do to fix it other than to throw parts at it, some of those parts cost more than $10,000.00!
    The system was rushed into service by an EPA that cares nothing about common sense.

    Mow if you are traveling down the road and see a truck puffing out clouds of exhaust that looks like Indian Smoak signals, it it going through what's know as a 'regen.' Roll your windows down and breathe that! Gotta be healthy!
    I'm for the environment, however EPA and carb are ridiculous!

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackhartjr View Post
    Before y'all start waxing poetic about how great the EPA and carb laws are, I'll give you some food for thought.
    I drive a truck. I actually own it and am pleased to a rather fantastic company.
    Mine is a 1998 model with a Detroit Series 60 engine.
    Before they started dicking around with pollution crap.
    If I had to replace it today, I would be paying more than $50,000.00 for a DEF system that if it has a pr, most mechanics have no clue what to do to fix it other than to throw parts at it, some of those parts cost more than $10,000.00!
    The system was rushed into service by an EPA that cares nothing about common sense.

    Mow if you are traveling down the road and see a truck puffing out clouds of exhaust that looks like Indian Smoak signals, it it going through what's know as a 'regen.' Roll your windows down and breathe that! Gotta be healthy!
    I'm for the environment, however EPA and carb are ridiculous!
    Just because you don't like it doesn't make the EPA and its regulations 'ridiculous'

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by WisconsinDavid View Post
    Just wait for the time to come when it is decided that for the best of society people may no longer ride motorcycles. Be careful allowing them to chip away at us, a little here and a little there, determined by what some feel is best for "society." That doesn't always end well or where you expected.
    That is a ridiculous argument and quite unconvincing I think.

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  7. #32
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    I am new to this motorcycle thing, but my question is this. Why do we want loud exhausts? We have a 2013 RTL and it seems pretty loud to me, I do not know if the previous owner did any after market exhaust work on it or not. It looks like the oem tailpipe ? I try and idle into the neighborhood just to not annoy anyone. the neighborhood harley owner does the same. Just wondering Thanks guys
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire34 View Post
    I am new to this motorcycle thing, but my question is this. Why do we want loud exhausts? We have a 2013 RTL and it seems pretty loud to me, I do not know if the previous owner did any after market exhaust work on it or not. It looks like the oem tailpipe ? I try and idle into the neighborhood just to not annoy anyone. the neighborhood harley owner does the same. Just wondering Thanks guys
    Thanks for being responsible and considerate of others.

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  9. #34
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    People who ride with loud pipes are trying to project the image that they are as bad a$$ as their pipes sound. It's just a mental waist basket that only works when they run in large groups. Loud pipes don't bother me much anymore because my hearing is pretty much shot at this point in my life. Maybe it's because I rode loud pipes for too many years. LOL

  10. #35
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    What is the rarest Harley-Davidson?


    The one that still has the stock exhaust system intact!

  11. #36
    Very Active Member KX5062's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsimion View Post
    Why should emissions standards for off-road vehicles be different from those for on-road vehicles? Pollution is pollution, no matter the source. Consider a street-legal Jeep versus e.g., a Can-Am off-road vehicle. Both are used off-road but what rational reason is there for the Can-Am to be exempt while Jeep is not? If the pollution from these off-road vehicles is irrelevant, then why don't we also eliminate pollution controls for on-road vehicles? You call California "Commiefornia"? California is acting on behalf of the health of its citizens and will roll back the rules if the majority of its citizens vote that way. It's called "democracy." You want to see real Communism? Look at all the Chinese walking around Beijing wearing masks and buying oxygen bottles to breathe. Their government doesn't care and the people have no say in the matter. That's 180 degrees opposite of what you call "Commiefornia." You want that here? Seriously?
    Quote Originally Posted by johnsimion View Post
    Off-road vehicles already DO have to be registered in NV, UT, AZ and CA (see, e.g., https://ohv.nv.gov/register, https://dmv.utah.gov/vehicles/atvs-dirt-bikes, https://www.ridenowpeoria.com/inform...y_registration). Since you were clearly wrong on that point, I didn't bother to research the rest of the U.S.

    As for enforcement, NV and CA (to my personal knowledge) already require smog tests for on-road vehicles. There are smog testing stations all over Las Vegas already. Requiring tests for off-road vehicles as well would not create a "whole new bureaucracy," just more smog tests for the existing network. This is enforced by decals. It's not really that hard for a cop to see an off-road vehicle somewhere, anywhere, and see if it has a decal. Doesn't have to be off-road at the time. You live in Florida, and South Florida (at least) used to require smog tests because I had to get my car tested when I lived there in the early 2000s. They eliminated the smog tests but they wouldn't be that hard to put back IF the state was so inclined.

    For pete's sake, nobody is going to get voted out of office for trying to regulate off-road vehicles. Very few people own them relative to the overall population, and they don't generate any great groundswell of sympathy among the rest of us when we can see the huge clouds they generate at their playground on the east side of Las Vegas. On weekends I can see the cloud of dust from my house 12-15 miles away.

    And NONE of this addresses my primary point: Pollution is pollution, no matter the source.
    First off, I'll try to refrain from getting overly political and stay with factual things. Secondly, I am very much an ardent environmentalist with a however. That however being it has to be practical as well as effective. It also has to be based on sound science and not pseudo-religion masquerading as environmental awareness. I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water. So, I lived it.

    In California, motorcycles are NOT sound or emission tested. Nor are they tested in any way after sale. OHVs have a "green sticker" for registration. That program was instituted in the 1970's with the promise that you could ride on road for up to 5 miles or cross roads, so you could connect trails. Prior to this you legally couldn't. Plus, the money from the program was supposed to go into a specific fund to pay for the maintenance and EXPANSION of the OHV trail network. NONE of that happened. It would take too long to get further into it, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the Red sticker program.

    CARB and the EPA are bureaucracy first and foremost. They exist to regulate and expand their power and scope of their authority. As exhibited by the fact that the EPA has their own set of regulations that are significantly different than EURO standards. Is the air different in Europe versus the US? Is science different across the pond? Of course not. What's different is the bureaucracy. Now they clearly do some good work, and I'm not saying they don't. And, I'm not saying they were founded with a good idea or good intentions, but once in place bureaucratic principals take over. (I've lived that too.)

    Also, CARB is now calling itself the "ARB". Big deal, right? Well, kinda is. The reason is because the CALIFORNIA air resources board is dropping the California part because they want to take over the regulation of air pollution for the ENTIRE Western United States and are actively trying to get the neighboring states to cede their sovereignty to them on a variety of issues. This is part of the reason the Trump administration is talking about clipping the wings of California and their federal exemptions.

    Some small examples of regulations coming to you. The CARB mandates that there be something like 56 different gasoline blend just for this state. (There are 58 counties.) They also demand winter and summer blends of gas, plus all gasoline sold here must be refined here. No gas importation/no free market. There have been no new refineries built in something like 50 years, because they can't due to the bureaucrats. Just like California can't import electricity because you can't insure that the source of the electricity conforms to California clean air standards.

    Now as to the emission testing. If the goal was truly clean air, then why not test a tailpipe, if it's clean, good to go. This is the standard in other places. In Commiefornia they really don't care about the tailpipe, they just want to make sure you have all of the factory equipment and have not modified it. Sure you have to "pass" the sniffer test, but not really. If you have all of the factory equipment and its determined to work, then you get a waiver and you pass. Of course, all of this costs money. Which is the real reason for all of this. California can not live within a budget (sound familiar?), so they dream up ways to extract more money from the public and conceal their real intent.

    I could go on, but I'll leave it there.

    Now to OHV specifically (the passion of my youth), I'll try to be brief. The amount of pollution emitted from all OHVs is not even measurable as compared to on road vehicles, because you have to take into account engine size and miles driven, which they do not. A long multi-day off road ride might be a hundred miles. I won't count dual sporting because those vehicle have to have license plates. Then you compared a Jeep versus a Can Am OHV. However, you don't take engine displacement into account, mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight, etc. So I believe your comparison is inaccurate.

    True story. About 20 years ago (when 2 strokes were still super popular) CARB decided to test off road vehicle emissions to get some data because they wanted to regulate them. So, they placed monitoring stations within the Gorman OHV park outside of LA, instead of any other OHV park. The ambient air is already a little dirtier than normal because the park is just outside of the LA basin, plus it's dusty and next to the I5 corridor (lots of long haul trucking). Surprise, surprise. The air was very clean and obviously did not conform to their desires. So, they redid the test. Only this time they placed the monitoring stations ON the Interstate 5 corridor and at public bus stops in downtown LA, not IN the park. Not only that, the devices were placed 18' above ground on the up hill side of the steep grade (known as the Grape Vine). Guess what? SHOCKINGLY, the results were totally different and now justified their regulations. The only reason this became known was because of a whistle blower who was totally fed up with the lies. The reaction by the public (non OHV community) and politicians? YAWN. And, now that false data is still used by environmentalists to justify OHV pollution regulations.

    Again, I could go on, but I won't ya'll get the idea.

    Anyway, Happy Easter to all.
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    Previously 2008 GS SM5



  12. #37
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    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure.

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    KX5062, you pretty much summed it up perfectly sir!
    Thank you!

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwolf View Post
    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure.
    Go figure!

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  15. #40
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    See red responses below. Red, you know, as in "Commiefornia." LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by KX5062 View Post
    First off, I'll try to refrain from getting overly political and stay with factual things. Secondly, I am very much an ardent environmentalist with a however. That however being it has to be practical as well as effective. It also has to be based on sound science and not pseudo-religion masquerading as environmental awareness. I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water. So, I lived it.

    In California, motorcycles are NOT sound or emission tested. Nor are they tested in any way after sale.

    They should be.

    OHVs have a "green sticker" for registration. That program was instituted in the 1970's with the promise that you could ride on road for up to 5 miles or cross roads, so you could connect trails. Prior to this you legally couldn't. Plus, the money from the program was supposed to go into a specific fund to pay for the maintenance and EXPANSION of the OHV trail network. NONE of that happened. It would take too long to get further into it, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the Red sticker program.

    CARB and the EPA are bureaucracy first and foremost. They exist to regulate and expand their power and scope of their authority.

    Speaking as a retired environmental attorney for the U.S. Army, I can categorically state that you are full of baloney. The EPA sets national standards according to statutes passed by Congress. The States implement those standards through a "State Implementation Plan" or SIP. Other than review to ensure the national standards will be met, the State is free to make the SIP however it wants. Enforcement of the SIP is then primarily done by the State unless the State isn't doing what it said it would do in the SIP, in which (rare) case the EPA would step in. In the case of motorcycles and ORVs, California needs to do whatever its approved SIP says ... nothing more.

    As exhibited by the fact that the EPA has their own set of regulations that are significantly different than EURO standards. Is the air different in Europe versus the US? Is science different across the pond? Of course not. What's different is the bureaucracy. Now they clearly do some good work, and I'm not saying they don't. And, I'm not saying they were founded with a good idea or good intentions, but once in place bureaucratic principals take over. (I've lived that too.)

    No, the air is not different in Europe. The point sources are, the weather is different, and the population density is far, far greater. And the air is also the same in China. Perhaps we should adopt Chinese air pollution regulations? And do you really want America to have the same laws and regulations as the rest of the world? Would that not be some sort of World Government that certain paranoid people are always afraid of?

    Also, CARB is now calling itself the "ARB". Big deal, right? Well, kinda is. The reason is because the CALIFORNIA air resources board is dropping the California part because they want to take over the regulation of air pollution for the ENTIRE Western United States and are actively trying to get the neighboring states to cede their sovereignty to them on a variety of issues. This is part of the reason the Trump administration is talking about clipping the wings of California and their federal exemptions.

    Oh, right, all the other states are going cede their sovereignty to California. Those black helicopters are probably also part of the conspiracy, along with Ted Cruz's father.


    Some small examples of regulations coming to you. The CARB mandates that there be something like 56 different gasoline blend just for this state. (There are 58 counties.) They also demand winter and summer blends of gas, plus all gasoline sold here must be refined here. No gas importation/no free market. There have been no new refineries built in something like 50 years, because they can't due to the bureaucrats. Just like California can't import electricity because you can't insure that the source of the electricity conforms to California clean air standards.

    If it's in your state's approved SIP, you have to comply with it. Now, there are other ways to get a SIP to pass EPA approval. The answer here, as with any other law you feel is stupid, is to elect a state legislature and a Governor who want to make those changes, because CARB or ARB or whatever you call it answers to them and ultimately, to the people. The fact that this hasn't happened suggests to me that the majority of people in California either like, or accept, the current system. This is the nature of democracy. If you don't have the votes and you just can't live with it, well then I guess you have to move. Personally I don't live in California but when I go down there, I kind of appreciate the work CARB has done because I can drive through LA (well, at 5 mph) and I don't see huge clouds of smog like you can see in the pictures from the 1970s. You said so yourself, "I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water." It's not like that now. Seems to me that what they do DOES work.

    Now as to the emission testing. If the goal was truly clean air, then why not test a tailpipe, if it's clean, good to go. This is the standard in other places. In Commiefornia they really don't care about the tailpipe, they just want to make sure you have all of the factory equipment and have not modified it. Sure you have to "pass" the sniffer test, but not really. If you have all of the factory equipment and its determined to work, then you get a waiver and you pass. Of course, all of this costs money. Which is the real reason for all of this. California can not live within a budget (sound familiar?), so they dream up ways to extract more money from the public and conceal their real intent.

    Sounds like California is trying to save money. As long as what they're doing complies with the SIP, it's legal. And apparently it works. Not quite sure what your complaint is. Are you suggesting they should do a full smog test?

    I could go on, but I'll leave it there.

    Now to OHV specifically (the passion of my youth), I'll try to be brief. The amount of pollution emitted from all OHVs is not even measurable as compared to on road vehicles, because you have to take into account engine size and miles driven, which they do not. A long multi-day off road ride might be a hundred miles. I won't count dual sporting because those vehicle have to have license plates. Then you compared a Jeep versus a Can Am OHV. However, you don't take engine displacement into account, mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight, etc. So I believe your comparison is inaccurate.

    I'd like to see your scientific study showing that pollution from ORVs is not measurable. Engine size is irrelevant to the amount of pollution created, as anyone who has ever mowed a lawn with a malfunctioning mower knows. Miles driven? If miles driven is unimportant, then if I only drive 5000 miles a year and you drive 25,000 miles a year, you should be required to produce five times less pollution. Yee-haw, I can take all the anti-pollution stuff off my car and you can't. Great idea, try to enforce it. Then you cite mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight and I read that and think, "Huh?" Pollution is pollution, no matter what produces it.

    True story. About 20 years ago (when 2 strokes were still super popular) CARB decided to test off road vehicle emissions to get some data because they wanted to regulate them. So, they placed monitoring stations within the Gorman OHV park outside of LA, instead of any other OHV park. The ambient air is already a little dirtier than normal because the park is just outside of the LA basin, plus it's dusty and next to the I5 corridor (lots of long haul trucking). Surprise, surprise. The air was very clean and obviously did not conform to their desires. So, they redid the test. Only this time they placed the monitoring stations ON the Interstate 5 corridor and at public bus stops in downtown LA, not IN the park. Not only that, the devices were placed 18' above ground on the up hill side of the steep grade (known as the Grape Vine). Guess what? SHOCKINGLY, the results were totally different and now justified their regulations. The only reason this became known was because of a whistle blower who was totally fed up with the lies. The reaction by the public (non OHV community) and politicians? YAWN. And, now that false data is still used by environmentalists to justify OHV pollution regulations.

    If the government cheats and isn't responsive, there's a way to change that. I noticed you still don't know the difference between Communism and democracy, continuing to call it "Commiefornia" even though California unlike Communism allows you to vote for your representatives and Governor who actually control CARB. If you don't vote, you get what you deserve. And if the majority vote doesn't give you what you want, you have to live with it. It's democracy. Majority rules. Try it.

    Again, I could go on, but I won't ya'll get the idea.

    Anyway, Happy Easter to all.

  16. #41
    Very Active Member SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KX5062 View Post
    First off, I'll try to refrain from getting overly political and stay with factual things. Secondly, I am very much an ardent environmentalist with a however. That however being it has to be practical as well as effective. It also has to be based on sound science and not pseudo-religion masquerading as environmental awareness. I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water. So, I lived it.

    In California, motorcycles are NOT sound or emission tested. Nor are they tested in any way after sale. OHVs have a "green sticker" for registration. That program was instituted in the 1970's with the promise that you could ride on road for up to 5 miles or cross roads, so you could connect trails. Prior to this you legally couldn't. Plus, the money from the program was supposed to go into a specific fund to pay for the maintenance and EXPANSION of the OHV trail network. NONE of that happened. It would take too long to get further into it, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the Red sticker program.

    CARB and the EPA are bureaucracy first and foremost. They exist to regulate and expand their power and scope of their authority. As exhibited by the fact that the EPA has their own set of regulations that are significantly different than EURO standards. Is the air different in Europe versus the US? Is science different across the pond? Of course not. What's different is the bureaucracy. Now they clearly do some good work, and I'm not saying they don't. And, I'm not saying they were founded with a good idea or good intentions, but once in place bureaucratic principals take over. (I've lived that too.)

    Also, CARB is now calling itself the "ARB". Big deal, right? Well, kinda is. The reason is because the CALIFORNIA air resources board is dropping the California part because they want to take over the regulation of air pollution for the ENTIRE Western United States and are actively trying to get the neighboring states to cede their sovereignty to them on a variety of issues. This is part of the reason the Trump administration is talking about clipping the wings of California and their federal exemptions.

    Some small examples of regulations coming to you. The CARB mandates that there be something like 56 different gasoline blend just for this state. (There are 58 counties.) They also demand winter and summer blends of gas, plus all gasoline sold here must be refined here. No gas importation/no free market. There have been no new refineries built in something like 50 years, because they can't due to the bureaucrats. Just like California can't import electricity because you can't insure that the source of the electricity conforms to California clean air standards.

    Now as to the emission testing. If the goal was truly clean air, then why not test a tailpipe, if it's clean, good to go. This is the standard in other places. In Commiefornia they really don't care about the tailpipe, they just want to make sure you have all of the factory equipment and have not modified it. Sure you have to "pass" the sniffer test, but not really. If you have all of the factory equipment and its determined to work, then you get a waiver and you pass. Of course, all of this costs money. Which is the real reason for all of this. California can not live within a budget (sound familiar?), so they dream up ways to extract more money from the public and conceal their real intent.

    I could go on, but I'll leave it there.

    Now to OHV specifically (the passion of my youth), I'll try to be brief. The amount of pollution emitted from all OHVs is not even measurable as compared to on road vehicles, because you have to take into account engine size and miles driven, which they do not. A long multi-day off road ride might be a hundred miles. I won't count dual sporting because those vehicle have to have license plates. Then you compared a Jeep versus a Can Am OHV. However, you don't take engine displacement into account, mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight, etc. So I believe your comparison is inaccurate.

    True story. About 20 years ago (when 2 strokes were still super popular) CARB decided to test off road vehicle emissions to get some data because they wanted to regulate them. So, they placed monitoring stations within the Gorman OHV park outside of LA, instead of any other OHV park. The ambient air is already a little dirtier than normal because the park is just outside of the LA basin, plus it's dusty and next to the I5 corridor (lots of long haul trucking). Surprise, surprise. The air was very clean and obviously did not conform to their desires. So, they redid the test. Only this time they placed the monitoring stations ON the Interstate 5 corridor and at public bus stops in downtown LA, not IN the park. Not only that, the devices were placed 18' above ground on the up hill side of the steep grade (known as the Grape Vine). Guess what? SHOCKINGLY, the results were totally different and now justified their regulations. The only reason this became known was because of a whistle blower who was totally fed up with the lies. The reaction by the public (non OHV community) and politicians? YAWN. And, now that false data is still used by environmentalists to justify OHV pollution regulations.

    Again, I could go on, but I won't ya'll get the idea.

    Anyway, Happy Easter to all.
    Can you tell me if you can get fined for farting or burping in public?

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    I'm glad that I don't live in a pure democracy, but a Democratic/Republic form of government, with a Constitution and Bill of Rights. Pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who will be eaten for dinner. That's what I was saying before. Our society is shifting, some for the good and some for the bad. But the state is starting to decide what is best for you and legislating what is best for you. Try buying a large soda in New York City today. That has been banned, because too much soft drink has now decided to be bad for you. The government has stepped in to protect you from it and you from yourself. The time may come when, because those in the motorsports are relatively few in number comparitively, it is decided that cycles and such are too dangerous for the roadways - or need to have less power/speed or fill in the blank, or everything must have four wheels, etc. I live in a town where BLUE ZONES are working to make everything healthier, a noble goal... but a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding, and are engineering groups/people/business to push toward their goals. All of this kind of thing is fine, when you agree with the goal ... but what about when you don't and find you have become the lamb looking at the wolves? With all the changes, we need to be careful and need to keep the founding documents of the country in view, to keep this American experiment from floundering. To be sure, it is a tightrope to walk. I'm sure on this board we have different experiences, strengths and political views... so I don't belittle but listen and try to learn. I encourage others to do the same. Do I like loud pipes. No! Do I think everyone should wear a helmet? Yes, in my way of thinking only a fool doesn't. But that is me. Do I think people have a right to be foolish? Yes. My ideas are ridiculous, Pete? Perhaps, in your view. But I have a right to my thoughts ... just as you do to yours. And, I won't call your views ridiculous. Just a few things to at least ponder as we look toward the future... and days beyond us that our kids/grandkids will know. (I'm 60) What we do now (and allow to be changed now), does impact the generations beyond us (and the sport beyond us). Peace. Have a great week everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WisconsinDavid View Post
    I'm glad that I don't live in a pure democracy, but a Democratic/Republic form of government, with a Constitution and Bill of Rights. Pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who will be eaten for dinner. That's what I was saying before. Our society is shifting, some for the good and some for the bad. But the state is starting to decide what is best for you and legislating what is best for you. Try buying a large soda in New York City today. That has been banned, because too much soft drink has now decided to be bad for you. The government has stepped in to protect you from it and you from yourself. The time may come when, because those in the motorsports are relatively few in number comparitively, it is decided that cycles and such are too dangerous for the roadways - or need to have less power/speed or fill in the blank, or everything must have four wheels, etc. I live in a town where BLUE ZONES are working to make everything healthier, a noble goal... but a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding, and are engineering groups/people/business to push toward their goals. All of this kind of thing is fine, when you agree with the goal ... but what about when you don't and find you have become the lamb looking at the wolves? With all the changes, we need to be careful and need to keep the founding documents of the country in view, to keep this American experiment from floundering. To be sure, it is a tightrope to walk. I'm sure on this board we have different experiences, strengths and political views... so I don't belittle but listen and try to learn. I encourage others to do the same. Do I like loud pipes. No! Do I think everyone should wear a helmet? Yes, in my way of thinking only a fool doesn't. But that is me. Do I think people have a right to be foolish? Yes. My ideas are ridiculous, Pete? Perhaps, in your view. But I have a right to my thoughts ... just as you do to yours. And, I won't call your views ridiculous. Just a few things to at least ponder as we look toward the future... and days beyond us that our kids/grandkids will know. (I'm 60) What we do now (and allow to be changed now), does impact the generations beyond us (and the sport beyond us). Peace. Have a great week everyone.
    Well said, David. And, I share your concerns and viewpoint actually.

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    I love Loud Pipes, and I ride a Harley Heritage with after market loud Pipes, that make old Ladies faint, old men riding their Ride on Lawn Mowers with 5 H.P. Briggs & Stratton engines dream, and imagine them selves on my Harley, and me mowing their lawns! They all wave to me before the old Ladies faint! Young Gals gawk and smile, and give me the Thumbs up when I go by, and young Guys wave and High Five each other! But thatís only when I ride through the Hoods to terrorize the Natives! The REAL reason I love loud Pipes, is because 95% of the time I ride my Harley, on the Blue Ridge Parkway, in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia. There are hundreds of Deer and wild Turkeys all over the area, and in the Fall, during rutting season, the Deer are crossing the Parkways, and way too many are laying dead beside the road after being hit. Loud Pipes warns both Deer and Turkeys, and when on my Harley, I at least have a better chance of not hitting them. I also ride my Spyder RT Limited, which is quiet , and Deer or Turkeys never hear me coming until I get right up to them, then its too late if I donít react in time. I am now 77, so my reaction time is in slow motion!! I did hit a Deer in Nov. 2016 with my Spyder, and had $1300 damage on my Spyder, and broke both of the Deerís back legs running over them, after he jumped out in front of me. I never even seen him until after I hit him, and I took the ditch! Had I had my Harley with loud pipes, that would never have happened. I lived in Laguna Beach, California, in the same house for 31 years, from 1979 thru 2010, and
    never was allowed loud pipes any where in California, and I never needed them, and was OK with stock pipes on my Many motorcycles I owned during that time, because I wasnít dodging Deer, but.........it would have still been fun to terrorize the Natives once in awhile, if I would have had a Harley there, but I always had quiet Metrics. So, cutting to the chase, one size never fits all. It depends on where we live, our age, gender, politics, etc. My best Two days in California were, the first day I drove in to Laguna Beach to my new house, and the last day I was there, when I looked at California in my rear view mirror when I crossed in to the Arizona border Jan. 1, 2011! I have never been back since. Looking at California now, I am glad I was able to escape! It was a 31 year challenge surviving there. Virginia and California are like different planets. I always kept a Jeep, A Pick Up, and several cars, plus 2-3 motorcycles, so wasted a lot of money on yearly Smog checks, etc.
    007James


    Quote Originally Posted by WisconsinDavid View Post
    I'm glad that I don't live in a pure democracy, but a Democratic/Republic form of government, with a Constitution and Bill of Rights. Pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who will be eaten for dinner. That's what I was saying before. Our society is shifting, some for the good and some for the bad. But the state is starting to decide what is best for you and legislating what is best for you. Try buying a large soda in New York City today. That has been banned, because too much soft drink has now decided to be bad for you. The government has stepped in to protect you from it and you from yourself. The time may come when, because those in the motorsports are relatively few in number comparitively, it is decided that cycles and such are too dangerous for the roadways - or need to have less power/speed or fill in the blank, or everything must have four wheels, etc. I live in a town where BLUE ZONES are working to make everything healthier, a noble goal... but a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding, and are engineering groups/people/business to push toward their goals. All of this kind of thing is fine, when you agree with the goal ... but what about when you don't and find you have become the lamb looking at the wolves? With all the changes, we need to be careful and need to keep the founding documents of the country in view, to keep this American experiment from floundering. To be sure, it is a tightrope to walk. I'm sure on this board we have different experiences, strengths and political views... so I don't belittle but listen and try to learn. I encourage others to do the same. Do I like loud pipes. No! Do I think everyone should wear a helmet? Yes, in my way of thinking only a fool doesn't. But that is me. Do I think people have a right to be foolish? Yes. My ideas are ridiculous, Pete? Perhaps, in your view. But I have a right to my thoughts ... just as you do to yours. And, I won't call your views ridiculous. Just a few things to at least ponder as we look toward the future... and days beyond us that our kids/grandkids will know. (I'm 60) What we do now (and allow to be changed now), does impact the generations beyond us (and the sport beyond us). Peace. Have a great week everyone.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by WisconsinDavid View Post
    I'm glad that I don't live in a pure democracy, but a Democratic/Republic form of government, with a Constitution and Bill of Rights. Pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who will be eaten for dinner. That's what I was saying before. Our society is shifting, some for the good and some for the bad. But the state is starting to decide what is best for you and legislating what is best for you. Try buying a large soda in New York City today. That has been banned, because too much soft drink has now decided to be bad for you. The government has stepped in to protect you from it and you from yourself. The time may come when, because those in the motorsports are relatively few in number comparitively, it is decided that cycles and such are too dangerous for the roadways - or need to have less power/speed or fill in the blank, or everything must have four wheels, etc. I live in a town where BLUE ZONES are working to make everything healthier, a noble goal... but a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding, and are engineering groups/people/business to push toward their goals. All of this kind of thing is fine, when you agree with the goal ... but what about when you don't and find you have become the lamb looking at the wolves? With all the changes, we need to be careful and need to keep the founding documents of the country in view, to keep this American experiment from floundering. To be sure, it is a tightrope to walk. I'm sure on this board we have different experiences, strengths and political views... so I don't belittle but listen and try to learn. I encourage others to do the same. Do I like loud pipes. No! Do I think everyone should wear a helmet? Yes, in my way of thinking only a fool doesn't. But that is me. Do I think people have a right to be foolish? Yes. My ideas are ridiculous, Pete? Perhaps, in your view. But I have a right to my thoughts ... just as you do to yours. And, I won't call your views ridiculous. Just a few things to at least ponder as we look toward the future... and days beyond us that our kids/grandkids will know. (I'm 60) What we do now (and allow to be changed now), does impact the generations beyond us (and the sport beyond us). Peace. Have a great week everyone.
    Mostly I would agree. You refer to "a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding." Who gave them power and funding? Answer, your elected representatives. IMO the main problem here is that our elected representatives aren't doing their job. They seem to be more concerned with getting re-elected than with representing. I can't think of any other reason, e.g., why they don't pass legislation to ban robocalls. I mean, surely banning robocalls is something everyone could agree on? But it's also complicated. Everyone wants freedom. The problem is that one person's freedom may infringe on someone else's freedom. My suburban neighbor is not free to put a shoot his guns in his backyard because that would infringe on my own quiet use of my property. It gets more complicated. Your freedom should not cost me money. Seemingly helmet laws are a clear infringement of freedom. But it's not that simple. Riders who don't wear helmets statistically suffer worse injuries in accidents. This costs more money for medical bills. Medical bills cost insurance companies money. If insurance companies pay out more money, they raise the rates for all of us. So in some sense helmet laws prevent riders from infringing on OUR right not to pay more for medical insurance. For pollution, there is at least some cost to society in terms of whether we want to breathe smog and suffer personal health issues. And there is the issue of whether and how much Source X contributes to the pollution. These questions are supposed to be answered by the Legislature, but they turn them over to the "unelected people" and whose fault is that? Our own - we elected these people.

  21. #46
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    A moderators point of view:

    A little more political than I like...but so far...everybody is keeping it calm.

    If this stays on an even keel, maybe a model for future discussions.

    If the black triangles start to fly or the name calling begins...then its done.
    Last edited by ARtraveler; 04-22-2019 at 01:02 PM.

    Currently Owned: 2011 RT A&C SE5 (magnesium), 2014 RTS-SE6 (yellow), 2015 Vulcan 900 LTD

    Previously : 2008 GS-SM5 (silver), 2009 RS-SE5 (red), 2010 RT-S Premier Editon #474 (black) Pictures of 2008 and 2009 Spyders are in Alaska Albums 2009 and 2010.
    5 Spyders, 10 years, 145,375 miles


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    You are so right. Those are the concerns that I see, too. Unelected people, but embraced to an extent by our local officials and provided some taxpayer funding. Also some of the funding is brought in from outside of the area, with the goal of creating a powerful group that seeks to create social and behavioral change. The change is made by slowly creating groups of people that either comply or ostracise those not in compliance. It is a strange mix indeed, a noble goal in health improvement but at the same time very concerning in practice. That was also my point with the entire motorcycle industry. If non-use of helmets costs people money and needs to be required ... it is not a distant leap that motorcycles are dangerous and cost more health dollars ... so the attitude to curb or eliminate them may be embraced as time goes forward. It is important for those on 2 or 3 wheels to support each other. Agreed though, it is a very complex balancing act. It is above my pay-grade. Done being political... back to spring out there!

  23. #48
    Active Member WisconsinDavid's Avatar
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    Thanks, Moderator

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    Very Active Member Wildrice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAbruzzese View Post
    You probably do not live close to a neighbor who owns a super loud HD and loves to fire it up at 4:30 in the morning. The main reason I keep hearing is the need for other drivers to hear you when riding.
    That is the exact reason I reinstalled my CAT after removing the CAT bypass pipe. We are allowed to do whatever we want as long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples lives. If loud pipes save lives it's at the expense of someone else's comfort zone. I've purchased used Harleys with a gutted out Screamin Eagles mufflers..I replaced the gutted version with the standard Screamin Eagle muffler & the low end torque re-appeared plus the neighbor was happy again... Extremely loud pipes scare some people into an instant lane change without consideration of what vehicle may be in their blind spot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsimion View Post
    See red responses below. Red, you know, as in "Commiefornia." LOL
    Since you're an attorney, I'll write slowly. JOKE!!!! Just kidding. Just like the Commiefornia reference is a joke. Since I've been a life-long resident I'm entitled to criticize my state or to poke fun at it. The nick-name of Commiefornia is older than I am and obviously you're not getting it. Sorry. You are also clearly uninformed about the goings on in the Land of Fruits and Nuts (another sarcastic reference). You are also not understanding my message (you say I'm wrong and I say you're wrong) and since it's getting political, I'm out. Peace.
    2014 RT SE6

    Previously 2008 GS SM5



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