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  1. #1
    Very Active Member Tango's Avatar
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    Default Harley Clamping Down on Owners

    Read this on an Indian Forum. HD is now enforcing EPA Laws in regards to tampering with emissions on bikes still under warranty. A letter was sent out to CA. dealers regarding this. Owners that go in for service are getting their warranties voided if engine management systems are tampered with. Carb rules are much stricter than the rest of the USA. Tom
    "I am the guardian of lost souls! I am the powerful, the pleasurable, the indestructible Mushu!"

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    California has always been against modifications of any kind. They have rules to keep you from changing the stock mufflers out too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwolf View Post
    California has always been against modifications of any kind. They have rules to keep you from changing the stock mufflers out too.
    This needs to become national law in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    This needs to become national law in my opinion.
    No tampering is the law in many states, but it just isn't enforced as rigorously in most places. Read the fine print on your exhaust systems and see where it says they are manufactured to meet FEDERAL requirements. In states where yearly inspections are called for many folks just put the stock pipes on for inspection and then remove them again after the inspection. Exhaust laws like gun laws are only as good as the enforcement behind them. HD is only getting onboard because of the pressure being put on them. They make big $$$ from the sale of "off road or for racing purposes only" modifications and they aren't about to stop voluntarily. My systems are always stock because there is little worse than listening to a load pipe for 500 miles a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    This needs to become national law in my opinion.
    Not in mine.

    People should mind their own business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KyBill View Post
    Not in mine.

    People should mind their own business.
    Don't look now, but there are lots of limits on personal freedom for the social good. It's called 'society'

    2014 RTL Platinum & 2014 RTL Cognac
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  7. #7
    Active Member Zoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    This needs to become national law in my opinion.
    Well, I would certainly agree that a lot of guys want their bikes to be super loud so they can annoy people - and they do. But I would also point out that if you are only allowed to use OEM mufflers then your older bike may be scrap. Any idea where to find NOS mufflers for a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 or even a 1991 Suzuki VX800? If not, a rusty pipe could mean the bike is toast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoot View Post
    Well, I would certainly agree that a lot of guys want their bikes to be super loud so they can annoy people - and they do. But I would also point out that if you are only allowed to use OEM mufflers then your older bike may be scrap. Any idea where to find NOS mufflers for a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 or even a 1991 Suzuki VX800? If not, a rusty pipe could mean the bike is toast.
    I was in the garage today and saw that we have two stock exhausts from 10-12 RT, and I thought I should throw them out, maybe I’ll hang on to them.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    Don't look now, but there are lots of limits on personal freedom for the social good. It's called 'society'
    Its hardly a binary function and no reason to sublimate personal freedom for “societal good”” when the overall benefit to society is minimal.

    Far greater percentages of noise and pollution come from diesel trucks than could ever come from cycles which are much more noise and fuel efficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoot View Post
    Well, I would certainly agree that a lot of guys want their bikes to be super loud so they can annoy people - and they do. But I would also point out that if you are only allowed to use OEM mufflers then your older bike may be scrap. Any idea where to find NOS mufflers for a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 or even a 1991 Suzuki VX800? If not, a rusty pipe could mean the bike is toast.

    All after-market exhausts in California are not illegal. In the case of no longer being able to find the OEM parts, you could still use after-market parts. The after-market parts used would be required to have a EO number on them. After-market manufactures can get their products pre-approved and certified by the state as meeting the EPA and noise standards. Once certified, the after-market parts receive the EO number stamp and they are just as legal as the OEM parts. It is a law that puts a lot of hoops out for the manufacturers to jump through before their parts are really legal. It makes an already confusing subject, even more confusing.

  11. #11
    Very Active Member KX5062's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tango View Post
    Read this on an Indian Forum. HD is now enforcing EPA Laws in regards to tampering with emissions on bikes still under warranty. A letter was sent out to CA. dealers regarding this. Owners that go in for service are getting their warranties voided if engine management systems are tampered with. Carb rules are much stricter than the rest of the USA. Tom
    Sorry, this is old news. This has to do with a consent decree the MoCo was forced to sign with the EPA in July 2017. This why all of the Screaming Eagle engine and exhaust accessories now meet EPA standards.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1A41UU

    The ARB (formerly known as the CARB) has always been "this way". Gov Ahnold signed a law about modification back in 2012 that made things even worse. The newest proposal being kicked around is to make all off-road vehicle conform to on-road ARB standards by 2027. This would effectively kill the OHV industry in Commifornia. Which, BTW, is being strangled by road and trail closures throughout the state, which is being copied throughout the Western US.

    If you think any of this stuff has anything to do with a cleaner environment, I'll sell you a bridge cheap.
    2014 RT SE6

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  12. #12
    Very Active Member jcthorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    This needs to become national law in my opinion.
    I disagree.

    There is a very fine line between right to repair and no tampering. And the folks writing the laws do not know or care the difference. Anti tampering laws put independent shops out of business. Be very careful what you ask for.

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    Very Active Member Lew L's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Soon enough we won't be able to "legally" change our oil or spark plugs. It's a slippery slope when we let the HUGE federal government keep snipping away at our " persute of happiness".

    I dis-like " loud pipes" . Dosen't matter shattered style of bike they are on either. But I don't want my bikes to sound like sewing machines. AND----- I don't think " loud pipes save lives"

    Lew L
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    Quote Originally Posted by KX5062 View Post
    Sorry, this is old news. This has to do with a consent decree the MoCo was forced to sign with the EPA in July 2017. This why all of the Screaming Eagle engine and exhaust accessories now meet EPA standards.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1A41UU

    The ARB (formerly known as the CARB) has always been "this way". Gov Ahnold signed a law about modification back in 2012 that made things even worse. The newest proposal being kicked around is to make all off-road vehicle conform to on-road ARB standards by 2027. This would effectively kill the OHV industry in Commifornia. Which, BTW, is being strangled by road and trail closures throughout the state, which is being copied throughout the Western US.

    If you think any of this stuff has anything to do with a cleaner environment, I'll sell you a bridge cheap.
    Why should emissions standards for off-road vehicles be different from those for on-road vehicles? Pollution is pollution, no matter the source. Consider a street-legal Jeep versus e.g., a Can-Am off-road vehicle. Both are used off-road but what rational reason is there for the Can-Am to be exempt while Jeep is not? If the pollution from these off-road vehicles is irrelevant, then why don't we also eliminate pollution controls for on-road vehicles? You call California "Commiefornia"? California is acting on behalf of the health of its citizens and will roll back the rules if the majority of its citizens vote that way. It's called "democracy." You want to see real Communism? Look at all the Chinese walking around Beijing wearing masks and buying oxygen bottles to breathe. Their government doesn't care and the people have no say in the matter. That's 180 degrees opposite of what you call "Commiefornia." You want that here? Seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsimion View Post
    Why should emissions standards for off-road vehicles be different from those for on-road vehicles? Pollution is pollution, no matter the source. Consider a street-legal Jeep versus e.g., a Can-Am off-road vehicle. Both are used off-road but what rational reason is there for the Can-Am to be exempt while Jeep is not? If the pollution from these off-road vehicles is irrelevant, then why don't we also eliminate pollution controls for on-road vehicles? You call California "Commiefornia"? California is acting on behalf of the health of its citizens and will roll back the rules if the majority of its citizens vote that way. It's called "democracy." You want to see real Communism? Look at all the Chinese walking around Beijing wearing masks and buying oxygen bottles to breathe. Their government doesn't care and the people have no say in the matter. That's 180 degrees opposite of what you call "Commiefornia." You want that here? Seriously?

    Because off road vehicles don't need a tag or registration. What is the government going to threaten them with? How are they going to test them? How would they even know if you built one? Before they can pass laws controlling off road vehicles, they must first determine where the off road vehicles are and who owns them.

    It would create a whole new governmental bureaucracy, and that might make the politicians quite happy, if they didn't get voted out of office for trying to regulate unregistered vehicles.

    Most off road vehicles are only used for short periods of time for recreation and not driven daily on the highways.

  16. #16
    Very Active Member AMTJIM's Avatar
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    The original GS exhaust that met federal standards would have burns and holes form, there was a Hindle exhaust for the GS that was offered supposedly for off road use and it had problems. Slip joint gaskets that failed at the mid-pipe(Honda parts worked better) and exhaust connection. Later models had Akropovich exhaust available.
    In the twisties I was playing the tart...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwolf View Post
    Because off road vehicles don't need a tag or registration. What is the government going to threaten them with? How are they going to test them? How would they even know if you built one? Before they can pass laws controlling off road vehicles, they must first determine where the off road vehicles are and who owns them.

    It would create a whole new governmental bureaucracy, and that might make the politicians quite happy, if they didn't get voted out of office for trying to regulate unregistered vehicles.

    Most off road vehicles are only used for short periods of time for recreation and not driven daily on the highways.
    Off-road vehicles already DO have to be registered in NV, UT, AZ and CA (see, e.g., https://ohv.nv.gov/register, https://dmv.utah.gov/vehicles/atvs-dirt-bikes, https://www.ridenowpeoria.com/inform...y_registration). Since you were clearly wrong on that point, I didn't bother to research the rest of the U.S.

    As for enforcement, NV and CA (to my personal knowledge) already require smog tests for on-road vehicles. There are smog testing stations all over Las Vegas already. Requiring tests for off-road vehicles as well would not create a "whole new bureaucracy," just more smog tests for the existing network. This is enforced by decals. It's not really that hard for a cop to see an off-road vehicle somewhere, anywhere, and see if it has a decal. Doesn't have to be off-road at the time. You live in Florida, and South Florida (at least) used to require smog tests because I had to get my car tested when I lived there in the early 2000s. They eliminated the smog tests but they wouldn't be that hard to put back IF the state was so inclined.

    For pete's sake, nobody is going to get voted out of office for trying to regulate off-road vehicles. Very few people own them relative to the overall population, and they don't generate any great groundswell of sympathy among the rest of us when we can see the huge clouds they generate at their playground on the east side of Las Vegas. On weekends I can see the cloud of dust from my house 12-15 miles away.

    And NONE of this addresses my primary point: Pollution is pollution, no matter the source.

  18. #18
    Very Active Member Lew L's Avatar
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    Not to pick at nits------ but there are only 2 counties in Nevada that require smog tests for on road vehicals. Clark co. ( Las Vegas ) and Washoe co. ( Reno/ Sparks) No smog tests in the other 14 counties.
    Last edited by Lew L; 04-17-2019 at 11:12 PM. Reason: speeling
    Kaos----- Gone but not forgotten.

    2014 RTS in circuit yellow, farkeling addiction down to once every few months.ECU FLASH IS GREAT.

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    Active Member RLS Exhaust's Avatar
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    I sale Exhaust to california customers but require them to sign a wavier saying they understand that my exhaust are not legal for on road use and are not legal in California unless on a closed course .I do this to protect myself other companies selling off road exhaust for on road use have suffered some very large fines from CARB
    Last edited by RLS Exhaust; 04-18-2019 at 01:10 AM.

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    The off road vehicles I see are mostly used on farms. They could be considered farm vehicles.

  21. #21
    Very Active Member SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN's Avatar
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    If it weren't ca. doing it then it would be ny
    can't wait to retire & move to nc

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    Active Member AAbruzzese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyBill View Post
    Its hardly a binary function and no reason to sublimate personal freedom for “societal good”” when the overall benefit to society is minimal.

    Far greater percentages of noise and pollution come from diesel trucks than could ever come from cycles which are much more noise and fuel efficient.
    You probably do not live close to a neighbor who owns a super loud HD and loves to fire it up at 4:30 in the morning. The main reason I keep hearing is the need for other drivers to hear you when riding.

  23. #23
    Very Active Member Lew L's Avatar
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    We have this fine event in Reno called "Street Vibrations " It's like the Sturgis event but tamer. But it's very loud.

    I usually build something or paint the shop and stay out of downtown.
    Kaos----- Gone but not forgotten.

    2014 RTS in circuit yellow, farkeling addiction down to once every few months.ECU FLASH IS GREAT.

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    Very Active Member Joe T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KX5062 View Post
    Sorry, - - - - - -, I'll sell you a bridge cheap.
    So, how much is that bridge and where is it? I've always wanted my own bridge. I plan to live under it when I become completely senile!!!

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  25. #25
    Active Member Zoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAbruzzese View Post
    You probably do not live close to a neighbor who owns a super loud HD and loves to fire it up at 4:30 in the morning. The main reason I keep hearing is the need for other drivers to hear you when riding.
    We've got a lot of HDs around with open pipes. And you know what? If you have a late-model car with the windows rolled up, air on, maybe have the stereo on.... you probably won't notice even the loudest HD coming up on the freeway.

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