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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    Yup-- we got reverse in exchange for 6th gear from the Aprilla camp... but I'm not sure if the gearing was the same otherwise... and I'm doubting people used 6th on those bikes until they were well over 100 mph......

    Too low of RPMS can cause damage.. regardless of whether it's the SE5 or SM5. I doubt 400 rpms will do much damage...just like it won't help much on MPG.

    My main concern is spline wear...... as someone who had it.... you don't want it.. and if you get it... you sure as heck don't want to have to try and argue the point with BRP pertaining to using a 3rd party sprocket.
    Just think right now millions of cars trucks motorcycles driving down the freeway to work at 65mph in 6th gear oh the horror of it if they only new that they would be causing less wear if they would just drop a couple of gears and run along at redline, you say you had spline problems[with the stock sprocket] the people who had those issues had them because the belt spec was to tight and or the sprocket bolts backed out BRP is calling for checking the bolts often the number of teeth on the sprocket had nothing to do with spline wear or loose bolts ,I solved this a long time ago by drilling the bolt head and safety wiring the bolt BRP should't have tried to reinvent the wheel on this one and used the same set up every chain drive bike has used for 50 years course splines with a nut held on by a washer folded over the ear of the nut can't come off and the larger splines won't wear
    2 happy happy spyders

  2. #77
    Very Active Member Firefly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r1100rider View Post
    Just think right now millions of cars trucks motorcycles driving down the freeway to work at 65mph in 6th gear oh the horror of it if they only new that they would be causing less wear if they would just drop a couple of gears and run along at redline, you say you had spline problems[with the stock sprocket] the people who had those issues had them because the belt spec was to tight and or the sprocket bolts backed out BRP is calling for checking the bolts often the number of teeth on the sprocket had nothing to do with spline wear or loose bolts ,I solved this a long time ago by drilling the bolt head and safety wiring the bolt BRP should't have tried to reinvent the wheel on this one and used the same set up every chain drive bike has used for 50 years course splines with a nut held on by a washer folded over the ear of the nut can't come off and the larger splines won't wear
    You obviously don't get that not all vehicles, engines and transmissions are created the same and that 6th gear on one is not the same as 6th gear on another. A HD engine for example is very happy running at 2,000 -3,000 rpms while in 5th and 6th gears. The spyder obviously is NOT... but go ahead... run yours in 5th gear at 2,000 rpms-- just think of all the gas money you'll save..... . All vehicles will lug the engine at different gearing and rpm combinations.

    Safety wiring the bolt isn't going to stop spline damage. The bolt doesn't have to come loose in order for damage to occur. No need to wire the bolt if it's properly installed and inspected at regular intervals. I only know of a few people that had the bolt come out. The rest of us with spline damage had it happen with the bolt 100% still locked into place.

    And yes-- my damage continued to happen AFTER the new torque spec.... although I rode mine really hard and thus put additional stress on it. Was on my 3rd sprocket when I totaled the Spyder.

    I will say that at least the Mel's ones were cheaply made and probably wore out easily before doing much shaft damage. If they were made of anything stronger than the shaft material--- the shaft will take the damage.

    Regardless... the point is that BRP isn't going to cover spline damage on your main shaft if they know you're running a 3rd party sprocket... just like they won't cover engine damage if you're running a turbo.

    Spyder #1 - 2008 GS SM5 Premier Edition #1977. RIP after 80,000 miles.
    Spyder #2 - 2012 RT SM5. Traded in after 24,000 miles.
    Spyder #3 - 2015 F3 SM6. Put 13,000 miles on and sold it.
    Spyder #4 - 2017 F3 SM6. Too good of a deal to pass up!

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    You obviously don't get that not all vehicles, engines and transmissions are created the same and that 6th gear on one is not the same as 6th gear on another. A HD engine for example is very happy running at 2,000 -3,000 rpms while in 5th and 6th gears. The spyder obviously is NOT... but go ahead... run yours in 5th gear at 2,000 rpms-- just think of all the gas money you'll save..... . All vehicles will lug the engine at different gearing and rpm combinations.

    Safety wiring the bolt isn't going to stop spline damage. The bolt doesn't have to come loose in order for damage to occur. No need to wire the bolt if it's properly installed and inspected at regular intervals. I only know of a few people that had the bolt come out. The rest of us with spline damage had it happen with the bolt 100% still locked into place.

    And yes-- my damage continued to happen AFTER the new torque spec.... although I rode mine really hard and thus put additional stress on it. Was on my 3rd sprocket when I totaled the Spyder.

    I will say that at least the Mel's ones were cheaply made and probably wore out easily before doing much shaft damage. If they were made of anything stronger than the shaft material--- the shaft will take the damage.

    Regardless... the point is that BRP isn't going to cover spline damage on your main shaft if they know you're running a 3rd party sprocket... just like they won't cover engine damage if you're running a turbo.
    Never said anything about running my spyder at 2000 rpms its about running 4100 instead of 4500 at hy speeds and i never said it was about gas mpg its about wear and tear on motor and rider using your logic you would be better off with a 24 tooth front so that your motor would run more rpm and be easier on everything yes i understand a harley is different the point is motors wear as they turn every turn wears it more there are only so many rotations it is going to make in its life, i dont lug my motor on anything and a spyder is not being hurt running 4500 instead of 4900 some people understand that some don't, the point of BRP coverage has been made many times by many people about many different mods and i never claimed they should or will cover any 3rd party item as you well know with your 02 mod and juice box on your old RS
    2 happy happy spyders

  4. #79
    Very Active Member Firefly's Avatar
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    Dumb BRP Engineers don't know nuthin'......





    Spyder #1 - 2008 GS SM5 Premier Edition #1977. RIP after 80,000 miles.
    Spyder #2 - 2012 RT SM5. Traded in after 24,000 miles.
    Spyder #3 - 2015 F3 SM6. Put 13,000 miles on and sold it.
    Spyder #4 - 2017 F3 SM6. Too good of a deal to pass up!

  5. #80
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    There are still too many variables for engine wear. My concern for running the Rotax at lower RPM would be that it would cause more engine wear, rather than less. Higher gears are harder to turn and if an engine is designed for high RPMs and forced to operate outside its zone, it will increase engine wear.

    When my RT is at 4500 RPMs its smooth and responsive, but responsiveness drops at 4200 and I have to give it more throttle to keep it happy. By going to a 30 tooth, I would have to stay in 4th, where I'm currently in 5th.

    I like the thought process, but don't see it having the results you hope for. Another example... When my Spyder was running into 6 bars over the weekend, I would go into a lower gear, let the engine rev higher and have more leverage and it the temp gauge would drop to 5 bars immediately.

    Sounds counter to the argument made, but in reality these engines are happiest at higher revs and struggle at lower revs. At some speeds, it takes more throttle to keep them going, so you may see lower mileage than with the stock setup.

    I'm curious to see how this turns out over time.


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    Last edited by MidLifeCrisis; 07-13-2012 at 07:52 AM.

  6. #81
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post


    Dumb BRP Engineers don't know nuthin'......




    Well they did put the air valve on the left side of the rear tire ....didn't they ????.....Why ?????.....Mike....

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    Well they did put the air valve on the left side of the rear tire ....didn't they ????.....Why ?????.....Mike....
    Agreed :confused:

    Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

  8. #83
    Active Member Dizneyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    Well they did put the air valve on the left side of the rear tire ....didn't they ????.....Why ?????.....Mike....
    For those of us with left handed air gauges? .

  9. #84
    Doru the Destroyer-Spyder Photo Investigator
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    How about late 2008 when I start warning everybody about the front sprocket/main shaft issues? And this was about 2 years before installing the Turbo. One can remember bjt and dtlang from Grand Blanc, MI waiting 6 months each for a main shaft replace on their RS's while in warranty.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    You obviously don't get that not all vehicles, engines and transmissions are created the same and that 6th gear on one is not the same as 6th gear on another. A HD engine for example is very happy running at 2,000 -3,000 rpms while in 5th and 6th gears. The spyder obviously is NOT... but go ahead... run yours in 5th gear at 2,000 rpms-- just think of all the gas money you'll save..... . All vehicles will lug the engine at different gearing and rpm combinations.

    Safety wiring the bolt isn't going to stop spline damage. The bolt doesn't have to come loose in order for damage to occur. No need to wire the bolt if it's properly installed and inspected at regular intervals. I only know of a few people that had the bolt come out. The rest of us with spline damage had it happen with the bolt 100% still locked into place.

    And yes-- my damage continued to happen AFTER the new torque spec.... although I rode mine really hard and thus put additional stress on it. Was on my 3rd sprocket when I totaled the Spyder.

    I will say that at least the Mel's ones were cheaply made and probably wore out easily before doing much shaft damage. If they were made of anything stronger than the shaft material--- the shaft will take the damage.

    Regardless... the point is that BRP isn't going to cover spline damage on your main shaft if they know you're running a 3rd party sprocket... just like they won't cover engine damage if you're running a turbo.
    Did it ever occur to you that since you were on your 3rd sprocket in 50 000 mi and many people have gone much past that with out ever having to change out theirs that maybe just maybe your advice all over the forum like"bob don't tell me you were in 5th at 55 "or "I don't even think about shifting into 5th until at least 80" might just be wrong ,BRP should have used the tried and true set up motorcycle's have used for 50 years and we would not be talking about this now and no one would have had any spline issues , I predict that when BRP ,Honda , or BMW builds a better Spyder and someone will it will have a shaft and more gearing spread lower and higher
    2 happy happy spyders

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by docdoru View Post
    How about late 2008 when I start warning everybody about the front sprocket/main shaft issues? And this was about 2 years before installing the Turbo. One can remember bjt and dtlang from Grand Blanc, MI waiting 6 months each for a main shaft replace on their RS's while in warranty.
    I lost my front sprocket and main shaft ''out'' of warranty, Month and a half in the shop,
    And 18 hundred + dollars on my dime.

  12. #87
    Very Active Member Firefly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r1100rider View Post
    Did it ever occur to you that since you were on your 3rd sprocket in 50 000 mi and many people have gone much past that with out ever having to change out theirs that maybe just maybe your advice all over the forum like"bob don't tell me you were in 5th at 55 "or "I don't even think about shifting into 5th until at least 80" might just be wrong ,BRP should have used the tried and true set up motorcycle's have used for 50 years and we would not be talking about this now and no one would have had any spline issues , I predict that when BRP ,Honda , or BMW builds a better Spyder and someone will it will have a shaft and more gearing spread lower and higher
    Nope--- because I'm not wrong about this and we know the various causes for spline wear--- most of which have been addressed by BRP. My initial spline wear was due to the extremely high belt tension. Further wear was due to my hard riding style----- revving to 7,000 rpms and dumping the clutch during performance testing, etc.

    As long as the spyder runs this rotax engine, it's always gonna want higher rpms. That is a fact that you just refuse to believe for whatever reason.

    Those running in 5th gear at 40mph are indeed lugging the engine and causing undue stress on the engine and drivetrain- its very easy to feel it.

    Spyder #1 - 2008 GS SM5 Premier Edition #1977. RIP after 80,000 miles.
    Spyder #2 - 2012 RT SM5. Traded in after 24,000 miles.
    Spyder #3 - 2015 F3 SM6. Put 13,000 miles on and sold it.
    Spyder #4 - 2017 F3 SM6. Too good of a deal to pass up!

  13. #88
    Very Active Member Firefly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidLifeCrisis View Post
    There are still toi many variables for engine wear. My concern for running the Rotax at lower RPM would be that it would cause more engine wear, rather than less. Higher gears are harder to turn snd if an engine is designed for high RPMs and forced to operate outside its zone, it will increase engine wear.

    When my RT is at 4500 RPMs its smooth and responsive, but responsiveness drops at 4200 and I have to give it motr throttle to keep it happy. By going to a 30 tooth, I would have to stay in 4th, where I'm currently in 5th.

    I like the thought process, but don't see it having the results you hope for. Another example... When my Spyder was running into 6 bars over the weekend, I would go into a lower gear, let the engine rev higher and have more leverage and it the temp guage would drop to 5 bars immediately.

    Sounds counter to the argument made, but in reality these engines are happiest at higher revs and struggle at lower revs. At some speeds, it takes more throttle to keep them going, so tou msy see lower mileage than with the stock setup.

    I'm curious to see how this turns out over time.


    Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
    Crazy talk!!! ;-). Lol

    Don't you know that every engine only has so many rotations and then they just die? Doesn't matter if they are fast rotations or slow ones--- when it hits the magic number they just seize up and then you take them to live the rest of their lives on grampas farm....lololololololol.

    Spyder #1 - 2008 GS SM5 Premier Edition #1977. RIP after 80,000 miles.
    Spyder #2 - 2012 RT SM5. Traded in after 24,000 miles.
    Spyder #3 - 2015 F3 SM6. Put 13,000 miles on and sold it.
    Spyder #4 - 2017 F3 SM6. Too good of a deal to pass up!

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    Nope--- because I'm not wrong about this and we know the various causes for spline wear--- most of which have been addressed by BRP. My initial spline wear was due to the extremely high belt tension. Further wear was due to my hard riding style----- revving to 7,000 rpms and dumping the clutch during performance testing, etc.

    As long as the spyder runs this rotax engine, it's always gonna want higher rpms. That is a fact that you just refuse to believe for whatever reason.

    Those running in 5th gear at 40mph are indeed lugging the engine and causing undue stress on the engine and drivetrain- its very easy to feel it.
    Of course you pick and choose what ever you want to think I have said which I never said you should be in 5th at 40 your statement about how it's easy to feel when the motor is lugging is exactly my point and a few hundred rpm at freeway speeds causes no complaints from the rotax at all thanks for making than point you refuse to believe I guess only those that have felt it understand the benefit
    2 happy happy spyders

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    Nope--- because I'm not wrong about this and we know the various causes for spline wear--- most of which have been addressed by BRP. My initial spline wear was due to the extremely high belt tension. Further wear was due to my hard riding style----- revving to 7,000 rpms and dumping the clutch during performance testing, etc.

    As long as the spyder runs this rotax engine, it's always gonna want higher rpms. That is a fact that you just refuse to believe for whatever reason.

    Those running in 5th gear at 40mph are indeed lugging the engine and causing undue stress on the engine and drivetrain- its very easy to feel it.
    And thank for confirming what I said 4 or 5 times that the spline wear was a belt spec issue not cause by tooth count
    2 happy happy spyders

  16. #91
    Very Active Member Firefly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r1100rider View Post
    And thank for confirming what I said 4 or 5 times that the spline wear was a belt spec issue not cause by tooth count
    I never said or implied spline wear could be caused by the tooth count. What I clearly said is that BRP will most likely NOT cover spline damage to the main shaft when you are using an aftermarket sprocket---- how many teeth it has on it doesn't matter.

    When I was referring to running it 5th gear at 40 mph I was directly referring to BOB... as he used to do this... actually 37mph I believe he said... but I rounded up giving him the benefit...


    Good luck..... I'd keep a close eye on those splines. Mine surprisingly kept working pretty well as long as I put a new sprocket on...but they were sharpened to a point by the time my 3rd sprocket went on. I had planned on having it torn down and fixed (under warranty) this winter before my accident.

    I recommend marking the shaft and sprocket with a sharpie...and the bolt... easy visual inspection will show movement. With mine you could roll the bike forward and back while in gear and see the movement. New sprocket... movement gone.

    Some of the earliest reports of spline damage (BJT & Dltang) were given a reason of 'bad metal' during manufacturing. It was after this that BRP lowered the belt tension a few times.. and increased the torque specs on the bolt... but I'm not sure if they ever directly attributed these changes to spline wear.... but we all assumed this would contribute. A more direct problem from the high belt tension was blowing through rear bearings....

    Spyder #1 - 2008 GS SM5 Premier Edition #1977. RIP after 80,000 miles.
    Spyder #2 - 2012 RT SM5. Traded in after 24,000 miles.
    Spyder #3 - 2015 F3 SM6. Put 13,000 miles on and sold it.
    Spyder #4 - 2017 F3 SM6. Too good of a deal to pass up!

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