F3 Front Sprocket Inspection

[Freddy]

Guess you get to add yourself to the negligible number of Spyders suffering from this over hyped failure.

CJ JAX

Touche.

[Roadster Renovations]

I have been doing some thinking yet again and the fitment of the splines are critical for lack of wear. Once the coating is beat up enough on the pulley, it gets down to the material and that allows rust from moisture, which makes it worse. Now, two thoughts about using Loc-tite is that it will fill in around any areas that are not as tight as they should be. What are you going to do if it needs removed? It will take heat to remove it. Where the shaft comes through the transmission there is a rubber seal and that heat could damage that. The other factor is that if the sprocket failed with it coated it would strip that away as it did so. That would still leave it on the shaft and I'm not sure how easy it would be to clean the grooves for a replacement. Also, using moly seems to defeat the concept of fixed spline system. I agree that if the spline moved in and out in it's operation, it would be critical to be properly lubed. However, it does not. Once it is put in place it is there with no side movement.
I then got to thinking about the method on the rear sprocket of using rubber bumpers to absorb the torque that eliminates any excessive wear on the drive line at that end. Ideally, they need to make a mini one of those for the front sprocket. It would absorb the shifting "clunk" and solve the spline failure problem.
What I'm thinking is that by painting the splines of the pulley with RTV, then sealing the back and then the front on install with RTV also would give it some absorption of what is wearing it. The RTV would fill in any gaps, harden up and do basically the same job as what the rubber bumpers do in the rear. At the very least it will coat the splines on the pulley and help to keep them from loosing their protective coating. And a moisture barrier is going to help. Removal and cleaning would be simplified also, as the RTV doesn't require a lot to be removed.
Think I'm going to try that on the Daytona. I'll shoot a video when I do.

[SPYD3R]

Guess you get to add yourself to the negligible number of Spyders suffering from this over hyped failure.

CJ JAX

ZUNI, 'OVER HYPED'? WOW.....
Dan P
SPYD3R

[TexasZ]

I have been doing some thinking yet again and the fitment of the splines are critical for lack of wear. Once the coating is beat up enough on the pulley, it gets down to the material and that allows rust from moisture, which makes it worse. Now, two thoughts about using Loc-tite is that it will fill in around any areas that are not as tight as they should be. What are you going to do if it needs removed? It will take heat to remove it. Where the shaft comes through the transmission there is a rubber seal and that heat could damage that. The other factor is that if the sprocket failed with it coated it would strip that away as it did so. That would still leave it on the shaft and I'm not sure how easy it would be to clean the grooves for a replacement. Also, using moly seems to defeat the concept of fixed spline system. I agree that if the spline moved in and out in it's operation, it would be critical to be properly lubed. However, it does not. Once it is put in place it is there with no side movement.
I then got to thinking about the method on the rear sprocket of using rubber bumpers to absorb the torque that eliminates any excessive wear on the drive line at that end. Ideally, they need to make a mini one of those for the front sprocket. It would absorb the shifting "clunk" and solve the spline failure problem.
What I'm thinking is that by painting the splines of the pulley with RTV, then sealing the back and then the front on install with RTV also would give it some absorption of what is wearing it. The RTV would fill in any gaps, harden up and do basically the same job as what the rubber bumpers do in the rear. At the very least it will coat the splines on the pulley and help to keep them from loosing their protective coating. And a moisture barrier is going to help. Removal and cleaning would be simplified also, as the RTV doesn't require a lot to be removed.
Think I'm going to try that on the Daytona. I'll shoot a video when I do.

Thank you Doc! I always like your ideas about things.

My thoughts were the same about using the 660 Loctite. The technical sheet stated 250 Celsius to disassemble parts after using the 660. Trouble is, 250 Celsius equals 482 degrees Fahrenheit which as you stated would destroy the shaft seal.

I did very much appreciate EETHER54 comments about using the 660 as well as sharing his thoughts and experience in dealing with this sprocket situation.

I also very much appreciate your thoughts along with everyone else's that has contributed to this thread.

We have now presented several ways to hopefully improve this sprocket situation but until we actually test out the different methods to see how they work out over time and miles we are still left with a puzzle to solve.

As for me personally, I still favor the M-77 Moly treatment with the additional step that you added of sealing it off on both ends using the RTV.

I hear what you're saying about the sliding movement on the shaft drive motorcycles compared to the fixed position of the sprocket on the F3's but there is still the hammering effect on the splines to deal with and the moly stopped the wear on the splines on the bikes I personally used it on.

When I as well as many others had to replace chewed up splines we did so with used parts that were far from fitting as tight as they did when new. The moly stopped the wear completely whereas the parts were failing in less than 20,000 miles without it.
And anytime I mention moly I am specifically talking about the M-77 as other moly products were tried and failed in time.

Thanks to all for your input and info, much appreciated!!!

[Peteoz]

ZUNI, 'OVER HYPED'? WOW.....
Dan P
SPYD3R

Dan, Zuni was just paraphrasing another posters words, in a very subtle dig at said poster.

Pete

[Steamer]

Thank you Doc! I always like your ideas about things.

My thoughts were the same about using the 660 Loctite. The technical sheet stated 250 Celsius to disassemble parts after using the 660. Trouble is, 250 Celsius equals 482 degrees Fahrenheit which as you stated would destroy the shaft seal.

I did very much appreciate EETHER54 comments about using the 660 as well as sharing his thoughts and experience in dealing with this sprocket situation.

I also very much appreciate your thoughts along with everyone else's that has contributed to this thread.

We have now presented several ways to hopefully improve this sprocket situation but until we actually test out the different methods to see how they work out over time and miles we are still left with a puzzle to solve.

As for me personally, I still favor the M-77 Moly treatment with the additional step that you added of sealing it off on both ends using the RTV.

I hear what you're saying about the sliding movement on the shaft drive motorcycles compared to the fixed position of the sprocket on the F3's but there is still the hammering effect on the splines to deal with and the moly stopped the wear on the splines on the bikes I personally used it on.

When I as well as many others had to replace chewed up splines we did so with used parts that were far from fitting as tight as they did when new. The moly stopped the wear completely whereas the parts were failing in less than 20,000 miles without it.
And anytime I mention moly I am specifically talking about the M-77 as other moly products were tried and failed in time.

Thanks to all for your input and info, much appreciated!!!

Sorry, but I need to ask what is RTV?
Bike going to,the shop next week to replace the sprocket and bolt. At this point, not really sure what directions to give the mechanic (he is a good wrencher and very well trained).
thanks to all for your thoughts on this issue.

[TexasZ]

Sorry, but I need to ask what is RTV?
Bike going to,the shop next week to replace the sprocket and bolt. At this point, not really sure what directions to give the mechanic (he is a good wrencher and very well trained).
thanks to all for your thoughts on this issue.

RTV = Room Temperature Vulcanization sealants, or simply known as a gasket maker. There are many brands, different colors and chemical makeup for a variety of different uses.
Here is the one I seem to use the most. https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-8218...70_&dpSrc=srch

[Peteoz]

I wonder if we are going to see some RT issues too?

This was just posted in a new thread by AbNormy......

Pete


Trying to figure out how to post pics of my front pulley wondering what causes it on a 12 RT. Is pulley working it's way loose?rust

[Freddy]

What is the maximum torque that the 10.9 M bolt will take? As previously mentioned, this same failure happened on a significant number of early Spyders. When I bought my GS new I was already aware of this failure. I purchased a new OEM bolt, which comes with thread locker already applied, and torqued it to 115 ftlb. As I recall, that torque was slightly higher than what I found for a bolt of that spec - my thinking was to add an extra 5% due to the fairly thick thread locker on the threads causing reasonable resistance when screwing it in, even tho the Spyder bulletin said 90 ftlb. It's been there of 8 years, 90,000km and is still not covered in red dust. BRP's stated in a service bulletin at the time that 'inadequate clamping force' was the cause of the failures.

[Roadster Renovations]

Sorry, but I need to ask what is RTV?
Bike going to,the shop next week to replace the sprocket and bolt. At this point, not really sure what directions to give the mechanic (he is a good wrencher and very well trained).
thanks to all for your thoughts on this issue.

Might turn him on to this thread. Get him up to speed. Might help...

[Freddy]

Spare pulleys and bolts will be exhausted soon. They may make better ones next run.

[Road-Kill]

Guess you get to add yourself to the negligible number of Spyders suffering from this over hyped failure.

CJ JAX

Yes I will but the "negligable" number was presented on this thread as roughly 60 Spyders effected. Of the 100,000+ Spyders built that number is negligible (hence my opinion at the time). So the "60" number was grossly wrong and I'm still not seeing any citations presented that I can research. Posting there is a problem is too easy and why people fear monger for fun (or stupidity). Regardless of this thread and my own "red dust" experience I'm still wondering where or how someone can know the actual numbers. Only BRP and service departments can know what's going on and they are tight lipped on everything.

I can say that this thread did cause me to take 5 minutes of my time and have a look.
Maybe it saved me a roadside/tow issue so all is good in that department.

[Machinegunner]

Harley uses a compensating sprocket on the crankshaft to eliminate the alternating pulses from their uneven firing order. It is mechanical so should not wear as easily as rubber. It protects their whole drive train.

[eddieshep999]

With all the talk of red rust indicating a possible sign of the early stages of the Front Sprocket failures, it may be worth investigating a substance that may prevent the rust in the first place

One product we can purchase in the UK is ACF-50 Not sure if it’s avaible in the USA
There may be other substances that could do the same job and are available and worth looking at

He is some background on ACF-50

http://www.acf-50.co.uk/motorcycle.htm

[Roadster Renovations]

With all the talk of red rust indicating a possible sign of the early stages of the Front Sprocket failures, it may be worth investigating a substance that may prevent the rust in the first place

One product we can purchase in the UK is ACF-50 Not sure if it’s avaible in the USA
There may be other substances that could do the same job and are available and worth looking at

He is some background on ACF-50

http://www.acf-50.co.uk/motorcycle.htm

Just did a quick check on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ywords=+ACF-50
So it is doable here!! May be better than molly if it does all that is advertised!

[EETHER54]

Just did a quick check on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ywords=+ACF-50
So it is doable here!! May be better than molly if it does all that is advertised!

The red rust isn't the cause of the issue, it's just a byproduct of the spines failing. There is no real sort of coating on the sprocket splines, just bare on bare metal. Our first F3 that had complete spline failure was a manual shift, so I'm not sure how strong the correlation between the SE6 clunk and the issue is. Our shop hasn't seen this specific type of failure on the 1330 RTs at this point.

IMHO I believe there is less bearing surface between the backside of the sprocket and the shaft as compared to the 990 engine. This coupled with improper torque of the bolt likely exacerbated by BRP's somewhat irritating habit of preloading bolts with loctite is what is causing the issue. What I have observed would seem to indicate the design relies heavily on arresting any movement with solely the tension of the bolt. If it isn't torqued properly it eventually allows movement of the splines and it's all downhill from there.

The loctite 660 is designed to arrest any potential for movement, frankly making the clamping force of the bolt much less important. I understand that heat will have to be used to remove the sprocket eventually, but that really isn't something that you should have to replace that often. Replacing the seal behind it would not be that difficult as infrequently as this operation would need to be undertaken. Fwiw, certain years of ZX6s came from the factory with a obscenely tight front sprocket nut. The advice from the kawasaki tech department was to heat the nut red hot and hit it with an impact gun. The seal obviously needed to be replaced but there was never another issue...

While there may be more than one way to fix the issue, I would recommend anyone still under warranty to go the loctite route, or rather, make sure that your dealership does so for you.

[TexasZ]

The red rust isn't the cause of the issue, it's just a byproduct of the spines failing. There is no real sort of coating on the sprocket splines, just bare on bare metal. Our first F3 that had complete spline failure was a manual shift, so I'm not sure how strong the correlation between the SE6 clunk and the issue is. Our shop hasn't seen this specific type of failure on the 1330 RTs at this point.

IMHO I believe there is less bearing surface between the backside of the sprocket and the shaft as compared to the 990 engine. This coupled with improper torque of the bolt likely exacerbated by BRP's somewhat irritating habit of preloading bolts with loctite is what is causing the issue. What I have observed would seem to indicate the design relies heavily on arresting any movement with solely the tension of the bolt. If it isn't torqued properly it eventually allows movement of the splines and it's all downhill from there.

The loctite 660 is designed to arrest any potential for movement, frankly making the clamping force of the bolt much less important. I understand that heat will have to be used to remove the sprocket eventually, but that really isn't something that you should have to replace that often. Replacing the seal behind it would not be that difficult as infrequently as this operation would need to be undertaken. Fwiw, certain years of ZX6s came from the factory with a obscenely tight front sprocket nut. The advice from the kawasaki tech department was to heat the nut red hot and hit it with an impact gun. The seal obviously needed to be replaced but there was never another issue...

While there may be more than one way to fix the issue, I would recommend anyone still under warranty to go the loctite route, or rather, make sure that your dealership does so for you.

Well said, clearly explained. Thanks once again for the info you have provided in your multiple posts, much appreciated!!!
If I was having the dealership do the job I would have a tube of the 660 in my hand to give them when I made the request for it to be used.

Edited to add that I checked the service manual and it appears that if the seal ever needed to be replaced it is no big deal or hassle to do it.

[Peter Aawen]

.....
If I was having the dealership do the job I would have a tube of the 660 in my hand to give them when I made the request for it to be used.

Sadly, it seems that at many dealers, even handing over the stuff you want them to use doesn't necessarily mean it'll end up being used on your (or even any) Spyder!! Unless you actually WATCH them doing the job, you'll never know for sure....

[zuni]

Yes I will but the "negligable" number was presented on this thread as roughly 60 Spyders effected. Of the 100,000+ Spyders built that number is negligible (hence my opinion at the time). So the "60" number was grossly wrong and I'm still not seeing any citations presented that I can research. Posting there is a problem is too easy and why people fear monger for fun (or stupidity). Regardless of this thread and my own "red dust" experience I'm still wondering where or how someone can know the actual numbers. Only BRP and service departments can know what's going on and they are tight lipped on everything.

I can say that this thread did cause me to take 5 minutes of my time and have a look.
Maybe it saved me a roadside/tow issue so all is good in that department.

You keep pointing back to "100,000+" Spyders as your reference when all we are discussing is the F3 model line which represents a small percentage of the overall sales. Only a couple model years in relation to the 10 years Spyders have been sold. Yes it has happened on a couple of recent RT models but again not what I brought up over a year ago with my first failure..

None the less glad yours was caught and others know what to watch for. Hope my last repair in August for this issue was my last.

CJ JAX

[TexasZ]

Sadly, it seems that at many dealers, even handing over the stuff you want them to use doesn't necessarily mean it'll end up being used on your (or even any) Spyder!! Unless you actually WATCH them doing the job, you'll never know for sure....

So true, that's exactly the reason that I will personally do the job myself.

[Roadster Renovations]

Well said, clearly explained. Thanks once again for the info you have provided in your multiple posts, much appreciated!!!
If I was having the dealership do the job I would have a tube of the 660 in my hand to give them when I made the request for it to be used.

Edited to add that I checked the service manual and it appears that if the seal ever needed to be replaced it is no big deal or hassle to do it.

Didn't check on the seal replacement, so that puts the 660 back up the running for me as a possibility.

[Roadster Renovations]

You all know that BRP is watching this thread closely and that we will all probably figure out which fix works that they will then adopt! With the entire knowledge that everyone has brought to this thread, there is no way that they could even hire that much intellectual wisdom and experience. Sad that it came to that, but glad that it did.

[Freddy]

Eether54, your comment on the 990 pulley being larger on the inner face than the 1330 is interesting. I wonder if anyone can compare? I have a spare for my 990 so will measure and post when home later.

[CarolinaSpyderRyder]

This just happened to my 2014 RSS with 27,000 miles. Wondering if maybe these engines weren't designed with Reverse in mind and maybe it backs the bolt out a little. will post again when I find out more.

[cmarsala]

You all know that BRP is watching this thread closely and that we will all probably figure out which fix works that they will then adopt! With the entire knowledge that everyone has brought to this thread, there is no way that they could even hire that much intellectual wisdom and experience. Sad that it came to that, but glad that it did.

Roadster, it's interesting that you say that since I forwarded all the data I collected to them and haven't heard anything back. Maybe they're getting ready to come out with a TSB or a Recall. A recall with a good permanent fix would be great.. Ride on everyone!