Yet another hand brake thread, hopefully with a new twist

[Gandalf]

Howdy,

I just joined this forum because I am very close to pulling the trigger on a new 21 or 22 F3. Always good to check out the forums for any new toy. I will be looking to tow my Mini mate camper with this as well.

I do not have the use of my right foot (amputee), so I will be looking to add the hand brake mod.

1. Is this mod generally something that the dealers will install if asked (and paid)? Or is it typical to trailer it home to do the work?

2. I was reading that a few folks find that they are not getting the stopping power they feel they should have. Makes sense. The hand is not as strong as the leg, obviously. (And you can't get any real engine braking from a ECM-controlled automatic ... )

I had a thought to share, posed as a question:
It is ill-advised to tap into the Spyders foot pedal master cylinder because of the joined brakes. So the ICI handbrake uses a master cylinder, and a slave cylinder to actuate the foot pedal mechanically.

On an automatic spyder, how about using a hand lever on both hands? Two hand levers, two master cylinders. So there would be two lines leading to the ICI slave cylinder.

Would this work? Or would the pressure from one hand brake's master cylinder push into the other hands master cylinder? We can't have a check valve in the secondary hand brake or the brakes would not release. To make this idea work, would we basically need two IC devices, one for each hand, mechanically pushing on the foot pedal?

I have a gorilla grip so I suspect I will be fine. And of course, I will try just the ICI as is first, but if I too find that it is not enough, I would like to know I have another option thought through.

I would be grateful to hear your thoughts.

Cheers

 

[Wmoater]

I am no expert on this. I can see if I can find the install information out. There is a very old vet that has 1 leg that I see at a local bar. He does have the older RT series and has a hand brake. For him he lets the machine do the downshifting. He never downshifts manually (with the flapper.) At times he says it is under powered but that is not a problem for he is just so happy to ride. After he saw mine he had to get one to be able to ride again. You will never have the throttle turned and brake applied at the same time. The spider will throw a hissy fit if you do. So if you are shifting up you are not on the brake. Our local VFW bought the spider for him so I am not sure where they had the brake put on. I can see if I can find out. Can’t guarantee that. There is also an awesome video of an F3 with a side carrier for a wheel chair if you need that. Our vet simply slides off and has crutches adjustable crutches that slide into a gun holster mounted on the side. He does sometimes wear a peg other times he uses crutches.

 

[Peter Aawen]

.......

2. I was reading that a few folks find that they are not getting the stopping power they feel they should have. Makes sense. The hand is not as strong as the leg, obviously. (And you can't get any real engine braking from a ECM-controlled automatic ... )

......

I would be grateful to hear your thoughts.

Cheers

Hi Gandalf, and welcome to the Forum and the wonderful World of Spyders/Rykers! hyea:

Re the bit I bolded in the quote above, that may be true for an ECM controlled AUTOMATIC, but all the SE Spyders are ECM controlled MANUALS with either a centrifugal clutch (SE5 - Revs based) or an oil/hydraulic clutch (SE6 - oil pressure based) so you can get just as much engine braking from them as you can from any other manual with a lever operated clutch! So don't think of the SE Spyders as having an auto gearbox - they don't! They have manual gearboxes that are effectively identical to the SM's, with the only other differences being the +/- shifting (that YOU initiate), no clutch lever or foot selector, and some computer monitored/activated fail-safe protections built in that mean you can't change UP too early and if you slow down &/or drop revs below their 'deemed safe' speeds for a given gear, they'll downshift for you. :thumbup:

Aside from that, while I can't really address the rest of your question/s specifically, do a bit of searching here, there are a few threads on the successful installation of hand-brakes that involve adding a hand lever to act as a duplicate to the foot pedal; all done using readily available levers, master & slave cylinders, etc from other motorcycles, and not requiring the addition of any complex or difficult to fabricated parts. None of these have been reported to have the 'weak application' that a few have complained about with the expensive commercially available hand-brake adaptations, but they do require you to source everything & either do the installation & set-up yourself or find someone you trust to do it properly for you.... :lecturef_smilie:

So there are relatively simple options that don't get anywhere near as complex as trying to rig up a two lever system that are generally somewhat cheaper than the commercially available units, but I guess you should ask yourself what is your time & effort worth; and how sure are you that you could get an alternative version done properly?? At least the more expensive commercially available units come with some degree of warranty that they'll do the job properly & some degree of supplier liability if they don't & things turn pear shaped! It's over to you & your call on that! :dontknow:

Good Luck, and again, Welcome aboard! :cheers:

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Just going to throw this out there .... MIGHT it be possible to have the OEM footbrake moved to the LEFT side .... ????? ..... Mike :thumbup:

 

[Gandalf]

Just going to throw this out there .... MIGHT it be possible to have the OEM footbrake moved to the LEFT side .... ????? ..... Mike :thumbup:

That would be the ideal scenario ! :thumbup:

 

[Gandalf]

Hi Gandalf, and welcome to the Forum and the wonderful World of Spyders/Rykers! hyea:

Re the bit I bolded in the quote above, that may be true for an ECM controlled AUTOMATIC, but all the SE Spyders are ECM controlled MANUALS with either a centrifugal clutch (SE5 - Revs based) or an oil/hydraulic clutch (SE6 - oil pressure based) so you can get just as much engine braking from them as you can from any other manual with a lever operated clutch! So don't think of the SE Spyders as having an auto gearbox - they don't! They have manual gearboxes that are effectively identical to the SM's, with the only other differences being the +/- shifting (that YOU initiate), no clutch lever or foot selector, and some computer monitored/activated fail-safe protections built in that mean you can't change UP too early and if you slow down &/or drop revs below their 'deemed safe' speeds for a given gear, they'll downshift for you. :thumbup:

Aside from that, while I can't really address the rest of your question/s specifically, do a bit of searching here, there are a few threads on the successful installation of hand-brakes that involve adding a hand lever to act as a duplicate to the foot pedal; all done using readily available levers, master & slave cylinders, etc from other motorcycles, and not requiring the addition of any complex or difficult to fabricated parts. None of these have been reported to have the 'weak application' that a few have complained about with the expensive commercially available hand-brake adaptations, but they do require you to source everything & either do the installation & set-up yourself or find someone you trust to do it properly for you.... :lecturef_smilie:

So there are relatively simple options that don't get anywhere near as complex as trying to rig up a two lever system that are generally somewhat cheaper than the commercially available units, but I guess you should ask yourself what is your time & effort worth; and how sure are you that you could get an alternative version done properly?? At least the more expensive commercially available units come with some degree of warranty that they'll do the job properly & some degree of supplier liability if they don't & things turn pear shaped! It's over to you & your call on that! :dontknow:

Good Luck, and again, Welcome aboard! :cheers:

Thanks Peter,

I can ride two-wheelers without pressing the rear brake as the fronts do enough, and I always downshift on hard stops (given time) to add engine-braking to simulate rear-wheel braking. Good to know that there is some engine breaking to be had on the Spyder.

It is a little tough. I cannot even take a Spyder for a test ride. I can't activate the brakes at all.

I am at the point where I have to buy on faith they are great (which I am convinced they are) get it home (trailer or find a friend), then fabricate/mount a system prior to my first ride. That is why I was leaning towards starting with an out-of-the-box (tested and proven to work) solution in spite of the exorbitant $$. The second lever idea was for 'the just in case I need to increase braking power' scenario.

I agree there are many ways to skin this cat. However, I do worry about homemade set-ups when talking about the forces that a leg can bring to bear in a panic stop. If the homemade system breaks in a mid-panic stop, then all brakes are gone ... Legs are strong, adrenaline-infused legs are very strong!

I will read all the articles I can find in this forum for sure to see what solutions have been tried and weigh them against my $$ and effort thresholds

Thank you for your input ! Much appritiated

 

[Gandalf]

I am no expert on this. I can see if I can find the install information out. There is a very old vet that has 1 leg that I see at a local bar. He does have the older RT series and has a hand brake. For him he lets the machine do the downshifting. He never downshifts manually (with the flapper.) At times he says it is under powered but that is not a problem for he is just so happy to ride. After he saw mine he had to get one to be able to ride again. You will never have the throttle turned and brake applied at the same time. The spider will throw a hissy fit if you do. So if you are shifting up you are not on the brake. Our local VFW bought the spider for him so I am not sure where they had the brake put on. I can see if I can find out. Can’t guarantee that. There is also an awesome video of an F3 with a side carrier for a wheel chair if you need that. Our vet simply slides off and has crutches adjustable crutches that slide into a gun holster mounted on the side. He does sometimes wear a peg other times he uses crutches.

Thanks,

I was rather hoping those that have had their brake system installed could chime in as to whether the dealer did it, or they had to find a mechanic, or if everybody is doing it themselves.

I have an artificial leg that I wear. So no need for any racks and such. But wow what a great idea, putting the chair where the saddlebag goes ( I think I saw that picture as someone's avatar image here ?)

cheers

 

[fjray]

The hand brake was the first thing I added to my 15 RTL. I had no problem being able to squeeze it hard enough to engage the ABS from any speed. The install isn't hard with decent skills.
As far as towing you camper, keep in mind that the hitch on the Spyder being mounted to the rear wheel is a poor design. It adds unsprung weight making the rear suspension work harder and it transmits all the motion of the wheel into the trailer. If you have a cooler on the tongue don't put glass in it

 

[Gandalf]

Awesome,

Thanks fjray!

 

[Piratezz]

It's a german guy, called Shockwave, look him up ont he net, he's has a few nice video's online, he has the rack for the wheelchair.

Also Brake lever, moved to the left, is imho the way to go, as Blueknight stated, There's room to connect the right pedal, with a rod, and move it to the left, you would have to find a handy dude/ dudette, that can sort this out for you.
In my hometown, we have a guy, also disabled, who makes just about anything, for everything, but that's no use to you, as he lives in the Netherlands.

But in my opinion, its doable

 

[dondje]

Howdy,

I just joined this forum because I am very close to pulling the trigger on a new 21 or 22 F3. Always good to check out the forums for any new toy. I will be looking to tow my Mini mate camper with this as well.

2. I was reading that a few folks find that they are not getting the stopping power they feel they should have. Makes sense. The hand is not as strong as the leg, obviously. (And you can't get any real engine braking from a ECM-controlled automatic ... )

Gandalf...

You are mistaken here. The ECM only controls the min. rpm for each gear. You can manually shift down at any rpm and will get "real" engine braking. In fact you will be able to drop gears faster than a manual - as the shift is as fast as you can slap a paddle with your index finger, without applying a clutch. No way you can keep up the speed of SE down shift with a SM manual, and you also get the benefit of not releasing the connection between the torque and the rear wheel with a very much slower by comparison, hand clutch.

Regards,

Don

 

[dondje]

Just going to throw this out there .... MIGHT it be possible to have the OEM footbrake moved to the LEFT side .... ????? ..... Mike :thumbup:

BLUEKNIGHT911...

I agree. There has to be a pretty simple way to get the pedal connection to work on the left side. I just haven't given it a good checking out. Have incentive know though. A best friend is looking to get a Spyder on my recommendation. He has a pretty disabled right leg. Had to sell his mint condition 100th Harley a while back. He was on my Spyder today.

Regards,

Don

 

[thereverend]

there are some YouTube video's on hand brake installations, do a search on YouTube.

 

[PhilY]

Is this the same system you're considering? I have one for my 2012 RS-S which works just fine. https://isciride.com/products/hand-brake-system/

 

[Omcge]

Dual Hand Brakes

Howdy,

I just joined this forum because I am very close to pulling the trigger on a new 21 or 22 F3. Always good to check out the forums for any new toy. I will be looking to tow my Mini mate camper with this as well.

I do not have the use of my right foot (amputee), so I will be looking to add the hand brake mod.

1. Is this mod generally something that the dealers will install if asked (and paid)? Or is it typical to trailer it home to do the work?

2. I was reading that a few folks find that they are not getting the stopping power they feel they should have. Makes sense. The hand is not as strong as the leg, obviously. (And you can't get any real engine braking from a ECM-controlled automatic ... )

I had a thought to share, posed as a question:
It is ill-advised to tap into the Spyders foot pedal master cylinder because of the joined brakes. So the ICI handbrake uses a master cylinder, and a slave cylinder to actuate the foot pedal mechanically.

On an automatic spyder, how about using a hand lever on both hands? Two hand levers, two master cylinders. So there would be two lines leading to the ICI slave cylinder.

Would this work? Or would the pressure from one hand brake's master cylinder push into the other hands master cylinder? We can't have a check valve in the secondary hand brake or the brakes would not release. To make this idea work, would we basically need two IC devices, one for each hand, mechanically pushing on the foot pedal?

I have a gorilla grip so I suspect I will be fine. And of course, I will try just the ICI as is first, but if I too find that it is not enough, I would like to know I have another option thought through.

I would be grateful to hear your thoughts.

Cheers

I Have Dual Hand Brakes on my 2015 RT Limited. It required a little fabricating to mount the second Master cylinder.
I couldn't find a Dealer that would install it. So with a helper I did it myself. It will brake so good that if you are not braced good for it ,it will try to put you into the windshield.
I got to where I couldn't get on it so I just listed it here & on the DFW Craigslist. It' s Pearl Red about 4800 miles on it.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?144071-2015-RT-Limited-with-Dual-Handbrake

 

[Gandalf]

Thank you all for your input.
I will go with the iscs 'out of the box solution' for my first Spyder. Perhaps with the next one I will get more creative.

cheers !

 

[Peteoz]

Thank you all for your input.
I will go with the iscs 'out of the box solution' for my first Spyder. Perhaps with the next one I will get more creative.

cheers !

Please post an update on how it goes, Gandalf. I am seriously considering one, but for completely different reasons to you. My long legs make it sooooooo hard to cover/feather the brake on my ‘21 RT due to knee/ankle angle. A handbrake that I can cover/feather would be the ideal solution :thumbup: but they are pretty expensive to get out here to Oz.

Pere

 

[strykerAKAmack]

I Have installed the isci on my 2018 F3S after 11000 miles up and now have around 14000
and have mixed feelings about it .
It will not activate the abs as the pedal will at the setting I have the lever set at .
If I had a longer reach It would activate the abs .
I had a custom SS brake line made to get the slack out of line which did help tighten up feel but not enough .
I am talking about a less than 1/16th pressure that is applied to the foot pedal with the hand brake also fully applied to activate abs
I originally left the original pads on which were probably 60% worn and when I wasn't getting abs lock thought that new pads would solve it .
Well that didn't work I put on ebc dble H all around and well let me say , They are coming off and the oem brembos are going back on ,(new ones of course)
which then led to the SS brake line upgrade .
I think a custom length brake rod would be the easiest way to achieve full abs using handbrake only .

Its a pretty easy job to do yourself , Only thing is instructions say you need to remove the whole footpeg , DONT it doesnt and will just cause you to have to re buy
all the hardware that you broke trying to remove the over tightened hardware .

 

[Gandalf]

I Have installed the isci on my 2018 F3S after 11000 miles up and now have around 14000
and have mixed feelings about it .
It will not activate the abs as the pedal will at the setting I have the lever set at .
If I had a longer reach It would activate the abs .
I had a custom SS brake line made to get the slack out of line which did help tighten up feel but not enough .
I am talking about a less than 1/16th pressure that is applied to the foot pedal with the hand brake also fully applied to activate abs
I originally left the original pads on which were probably 60% worn and when I wasn't getting abs lock thought that new pads would solve it .
Well that didn't work I put on ebc dble H all around and well let me say , They are coming off and the oem brembos are going back on ,(new ones of course)
which then led to the SS brake line upgrade .
I think a custom length brake rod would be the easiest way to achieve full abs using handbrake only .

Its a pretty easy job to do yourself , Only thing is instructions say you need to remove the whole footpeg , DONT it doesnt and will just cause you to have to re buy
all the hardware that you broke trying to remove the over tightened hardware .

Are you saying "at the setting I have the lever set at" that you adjusted the hand lever such that it bottoms out before the ABS can kick in?
and you are doing this because you do not have the reach ( on your hand) to set the lever out further?

 

[tnhoover]

I recently traded in my 2010 RT complete with handbrake for a 2021 F3 limited. I had a hand brake for the last 8 or 9 years and I miss it. I like that I can install floor boards and do not have to worry about keeping my foot near the brake. I plan have one installed on my new F3 and my dealer (In Pa.) has a working relationship with ISCI and will do the install for me. I installed the one on my RT and it took me awhile as it was my first time removing the tupperware for anything. It definitely does not slow you as fast a foot brake for obvious reasons but once I got used to how it worked I very rarely used the foot brake. On a few occasions in an emergency I hit the foot brake and the hand brake. Always hit te hand brake first before my brain caught up and yelled FOOT BRAKE!! Maybe 3 times in 9 years and my own fault every time. I would have no problem with the hand brake being my only stopping method. It was an expensive add on but well worth it to me and I will be doing it again soon.