Getting under the hood...

[Columbia]

Greetings

My 2015 ST Ltd. has the 998 engine. (You know the expression "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride"? I wish I had the 1330 engine.)

I think it received minimal maintenance through its first two owners. I'm #3 and I am trying to do a better job.

So: want to replace plugs and wires. I'll order Baja Ron's. I'm finding my skill and patience working on bikes is declining a bit. Which makes me ask the Group for its collective Wisdom on a few questions:

• How difficult is it to get to the plugs and their wires? Zero to Five--
  
  "Zero" being "One eye closed, one hand tied behind my back."
  
  "Five" being "Buy aspirin by the pallet; get a prescription for tranquilizers or get two pallets of GOOD beer*; wish you had bought a Honda instead of CanAm; get a cuss-word thesaurus; consider climbing Everest instead of wrenching on a Spyder as a hobby."
  
  
• What body pieces MUST come off? What other body panels, if removed, make life easier?
  
  
• I hear the air box is a source of many loud cuss words: Yes? No? Any removal advice if "Yes"?
  
  
• Are there modifications that make this whole task easier for next time? Modifications that don't harm engine function, of course. Apart from removing all the body panels and riding without them!

My nearest dealer (AKA "stealer") is sketchy on repairs. A recent experience verified that. Sketchy at $120 USD per hour. I really don't want to take the bike to the dealer. I really can't afford sketchy.

Your thoughts and/or counsel, gentlemen and ladies?



* See https://www.irishdeath.com/

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Why do you want to change them ???? .... how many miles do you have on this Spyder ..... Mike :thumbup:

 

[Columbia]

Why? My reason(s) isn't pertinent to the questions I'm asking, but I appreciate your concern for my welfare implied in your questions.

the reason is contained in the prelude to the questions.

I'll be more explicit: My desire to ensure that what's in that engine is reliable and sound.

 

[Isopedella]

There are threads on this. Like the one below.

There are very good reasons to attend to them.

Others just seem to ignore them. Their choice to not do it.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?153240-When-to-change-spark

A u-tube search or here in the upper right corner there is a search box may assist.

My F3 is different.

 

[UtahPete]

This search result has a number of threads specific to your ST question...Advanced search...thread titles only..."ST plug change"

Search results are only as good as the thread titles are explanatory e.g. "Replacing spark plugs on ST"

 

[Peter Aawen]

This search result has a number of threads specific to your question https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/search.php?searchid=3929543

Search results are only as good as the thread title is explanatory, which yours is not...

Pete, posting a link to the RESULTS page/s of any search you input won't work, because the page you've linked won't have the necessary search parameters to give any useful result, so it'll display an 'Invalid Link' message or similar!

It's much more helpful to tell people looking what keywords & parameters you've entered in order to get that result; that way, they'll be able to duplicate your search results. :thumbup:

 

[Columbia]

I've searched and read a number of threads across the forum on plugs and cable replacement.

The ST I ride is not well represented on the forum. the 998 engine, as a topic itself, has more entries, but it too isn't as well represented as the 1330.

RTs and the 1330 engine seem to dominate. My guess is they dominate both in members' rides and in threads. I have no evidence to support that. Pure guess.

I know it has been brought up more than once discussing bikes that are not like mine, even though the engine might be the same. I have read and studied many of those threads. Can't say all, because I don't know how many there are. I will say I've spent time with more than six or seven, each with varying focus and depth and helpfulness.

I asked the questions I asked because I've not found anyone writing about an ST and its peculiarities.

I've found my spyder to be poorly designed for maintenance, much like some cars are not designed with the user or technician in mind when maintenance is considered.
(I have a good friend near Bozeman whose shop is packed with European cars, only European cars, for maintenance and repairs. That's all he works on. He has four techs working full time. Customers come from Wyoming, Idaho and the Dakotas, he's that good and in such demand. He often has told me that the vehicles he works on were not designed for working on. It's not only CanAm which could do much better.)

I should have been more clear, saying "I'm after information specific to the ST." And, you're correct: the title is far too general. In a way it isn't: I wrote it in the ST thread, assuming it would be understood that I'm going under the hood of an ST. I regret those mistakes and the apparent confusion they caused..

Thought it was worth a try, in the ST thread, hoping perhaps to get the attention of someone who rides an ST and has advice/ideas specific to the ST. Maybe the "ST Shop Talk" section of the forum would have been a better place to make the attempt. I had hoped to get someone with ST experience to respond. That too might be a wish that won't come true.

So it goes.

Enjoy the evening.

 

[UtahPete]

Pete, posting a link to the RESULTS page/s of any search you input won't work, because the page you've linked won't have the necessary search parameters to give any useful result, so it'll display an 'Invalid Link' message or similar!

It's much more helpful to tell people looking what keywords & parameters you've entered in order to get that result; that way, they'll be able to duplicate your search results. :thumbup:

That's good to know. I used the advanced search, titles only. Keywords "ST plug change"

 

[Columbia]

Isoped

Just read the thread you cited. Interesting. Not particularly useful to me, but still interesting. Baja Ron's comments were pertinent.

Let's see: oil threads create a lot of heat and a little light. Tire threads, lots of heat and some light (I muchly appreciated the light as I bought Vredestein tires recently. Used Vredestein snow tires for years. Wouldn't have considered them for the spyder but for the many knowledgeable recommendations found here. Glad I did my research.)

Maybe "spark plug threads" need to be added to the caveat emptor list?

 

[Columbia]

Greetings
I just noodled around again, not the first time, looking again, not the first time, at threads related to "ST spark plug." Here's an example of a fairly recent (2021) account:

I just did the wire/plug change a few weeks ago. Took two days (panel removal and replacement and some lighting accessory wiring) and a lot of swear words. The hardest challenge turned out to be the removal and replacement of the front cylinder wire. It runs between the two cylinders under the air box housing and has a sharp 90 degree turn. In addition, there is a wire tie near this bend holding the wire in place. Couldn't pull the old wire out in either direction because of the wire tie. I did not remove the air box assembly due to having to cut more wiring harness ties that were in the way of its removal and trying to manipulate it off of the throttle bodies and out of the frame area, so that was my fault. Eventually, I cut the old plug wire and yanked the two halves out from either end.

Fishing the new plug wire in and around the 90 was an effort using a long stick and string set-up, but eventually, it came thru.

Yes, get a hold of a shop manual and study it well and allow yourself plenty of time and a comfortable working space (and good lighting - it's dark down inside that area).

Have fun and good luck!

Got it. But here's the problem: this description is for a 2014 ST. CanAm made a different ST in 2015 and 2016 and then stopped making the ST. My bike is a small fish in a very large pond (assuming the total number of spyders can be considered a "very large pond.")

I got my ST for a very good price. It is in remarkably good condition. Not a whole lot of miles. I regret the purchase. I regret not doing sufficient research on spyders before I bought the bike. My excuse for those failures? It's a good one! My doctor had recently told me I needed to stop riding two wheels. My wife said "Why not three?" knowing how much I loved riding--one of the few sources of genuine joy in my life. So I was eager and stupid. Not the first time for either.

Now I've got the ST and I'm putting on the miles, trying to understand the machine and finding the learning curve steep. Perhaps this is my calling: dive in, learn new cuss words, take careful note of how things come apart and go back together, and, in the process, discover some tricks or techniques that make things go more smoothly and then write things up for the few other 2015-16 ST owners who don't like the dealer's overpriced poor service.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I've searched and read a number of threads across the forum on plugs and cable replacement.

The ST I ride is not well represented on the forum. the 998 engine, as a topic itself, has more entries, but it too isn't as well represented as the 1330.

RTs and the 1330 engine seem to dominate. My guess is they dominate both in members' rides and in threads. I have no evidence to support that. Pure guess.

I know it has been brought up more than once discussing bikes that are not like mine, even though the engine might be the same. I have read and studied many of those threads. Can't say all, because I don't know how many there are. I will say I've spent time with more than six or seven, each with varying focus and depth and helpfulness.

I asked the questions I asked because I've not found anyone writing about an ST and its peculiarities.

I've found my spyder to be poorly designed for maintenance, much like some cars are not designed with the user or technician in mind when maintenance is considered.
(I have a good friend near Bozeman whose shop is packed with European cars, only European cars, for maintenance and repairs. That's all he works on. He has four techs working full time. Customers come from Wyoming, Idaho and the Dakotas, he's that good and in such demand. He often has told me that the vehicles he works on were not designed for working on. It's not only CanAm which could do much better.)

I should have been more clear, saying "I'm after information specific to the ST." And, you're correct: the title is far too general. In a way it isn't: I wrote it in the ST thread, assuming it would be understood that I'm going under the hood of an ST. I regret those mistakes and the apparent confusion they caused..

Thought it was worth a try, in the ST thread, hoping perhaps to get the attention of someone who rides an ST and has advice/ideas specific to the ST. Maybe the "ST Shop Talk" section of the forum would have been a better place to make the attempt. I had hoped to get someone with ST experience to respond. That too might be a wish that won't come true.

So it goes.

Enjoy the evening.

I know it's coming down to 'semantics', but it does make it a lot easier for everyone reading and especially for all those with the same issues and/or any who might potentially help you if you use the same terminology as everyone else, so there's just a few things that are worth clarifying here Columbia....

In this Post of mine, one of 11 or so in the Thread so far, I've quoted your Post #7 above. A collection of Posts all on the same subject and following one after another make a Thread, cos the discussion follows the same thread & the posts all string together. We try very hard to make sure that all the Threads here go into the most appropriate sub-forum (in this case, Spyder ST - Sport Touring ) under the applicable section (in this case, Spyder & Ryker Discussions hyea: ) so that both now and into the future, it'll make it easier for anyone looking/searching on the subject. But do note that most regular readers/Members use the provided 'New Posts', 'Today's Posts', or 'What's New' searches (see the menu lines above the scrolling Sponsor's banners & below the Spyder Community line ) to see what's happened on the Forum since they were last here, so they may not easily see what Section or Sub-Forum you've put your thread into - which is why we try very hard to encourage posters to briefly state their question in the Thread Title of any New Thread they may start!

Other media &/or sites may have different Rules, conventions, and might even use different terminology, but the conventions above have been around and used in Internet Forums pretty much since Internet Forums were invented... and altho it does make me feel old to admit it, I was around & involved in the industry when that happened! :shocked: Anyhow, that's the basic housekeeping stuff, now on to the ST Specific stuff.... hyea:



With regards to your ST, there really isn't all that much that's MAJORLY different between it and all the 998 powered RT's, except for the final fit & trim stuff ahead of the seat and the rear Panniers & Trunk alongside/behind the seat. AND once again, apart from the final fit & trim, there's also really not all that much difference between your ST & all the GS & RS/RSS's out there especially the later model Spyders. :lecturef_smilie: So apart from some relatively minor differences that are largely cosmetic, all the threads that refer to changing the plugs and leads on any similar year/model Spyder (especially those since 2013) with the same V-Twin 991 model 998cc Rotax motor, will apply equally as well to your ST in MOST respects, altho there may be some (relatively minor) differences in the way you have to remove the tupperware, which may have some (relatively minor) differences in appearance depending upon the year/model Spyder of any ilk - GS, RS, RSS, or RT that it is. Sure, there are SOME differences, but having worked on them all, they really are relatively minor, especially once they hit the 'Upgrade Models' in 2013, cos from 2013 on, the RS's, the RSS's, the ST's, and the RT's regardless of which trim level within that particular model were very much the same bikes underneath with only minor tupperware & fittings differences!

So I can tell you for a fact that they're ALL a pain to work on, but if you want to swap the plugs and leads on your 2015 ST, a Spyder that has the same 998 cc V-Twin motor as my 2013 RT and any 2013 & on RS, RSS, or ST Spyders, then apart from the (relatively minor) differences in the appearance and way you actually remove some of the tupperware, the mirrors etc, and apart from a few minor bits inside (that you & your ST generally get somewhat easier than the RT owners/techs do! :sour: ) you'll still hafta do pretty much everything I hafta do to change my RT's plugs & leads; and on either Spyder, in factory trim, it's a right pain, largely because of all the bulky Ait Box & the 'pre-air filter' air inlet trunking!! :gaah:

 

[Columbia]

Peter

You are, as you usually are, correct in my labeling and mislabeling of "thread" and "section" etc. I apologize for not thinking more thoroughly about my word choice. As you and I know from our private messaging, word choice is critical for clear understanding. Thanks for clarifying; I'll work to take what you said both to heart and mind. Thank you.

Yeah. I've heard more than once that all spyders are pretty much the same. I'll take your word for it. I'm not convinced, though, based largely on the descriptions I've read of various tasks performed on the various spyder models discussed on the forum. Photos too. MY spyder doesn't resemble YOUR description or photo. Nope.

What I am missing is information which for others perhaps isn't needed or wanted. I've studied the manual and found it like every other factory manual I've purchased for most every other vehicle or other equipment I've owned. It is too general for my not mechanically trained mind. The manual says "Remove panel X." So I dive in, look for the attachment points which may or may not be in a manual drawing, if there IS a drawing, hunt for the correct size Allen key or Torx fitting and, eventually, with not a small amount of luck, get panel X removed.

Mechanical stuff is not second nature to me. Or third. Or fourth. I LOVE wrenching. It doesn't come naturally to me as it does for others. Yes: I'm jealous of those who seem to just "get it." I don't just get it. So my manual would read a bit differently:

"Remove panel X by first finding the five bolts holding it in place. Two are visible at the top of the panel. Three are down below, unseen from above; one left when looking at the bike, one centered, one right. Use a 6mm Allen key. You'll need to press hard to loosen things up. After removing the five bolts, grasp the panel at the top, then pull toward the rear of the bike. There are two tabs at the bottom that need to go back before you can lift the panel up."

I know. A real mechanic would laugh at such a description, but for someone like me, strong in the liberal arts, not so strong and with little experience in things mechanical, such a description would make the difference between successfully enjoying the project, seeing it through to completion, and deciding I'm not capable or it's not worth the effort or many other conclusions which may not be rational or correct, but which many folks would arrive at anyway out of ignorance or frustration or ???

I've printed sections of the spyder manual and annotate it as I do various projects, writing in wrench size needed, which color of wire goes where, etc. For me, that bit of detail simplifies things, keeps progress progressing, and so on.

Now I don't usually need that level of hand holding. I've been repairing and modifying various machines for quite awhile. Not infrequently making a hash of things as I did. I still find most manuals, and other descriptions, to be written or explained by folks who already know what they're doing and how things work. A lot isn't included. So someone like me is easily confuzzled or frustrated or lost. (This goes across disciplines. Music instruction. Computer software (among the worst). Learning to swim. Writing. Learning a foreign language. Learning grammar or spelling. Examples abound.)

My hope, when I started my thread and placing it in the ST section (am I getting those labels correct? Perhaps I am educable? Tell my wife, please!) was to gain some insight/suggestions/pointers on how to tackle a job I've read is a colossal pain in the behind so it might become less of a pain.

Taking your observation that spyders are, largely, similar, I'll again read the many threads on spark plug and wire replacement. I suspect I'll find a paucity of detail, for that is one of the things I notice in most every thread I've read. On most every procedure. Rare is the description of a process that is rich in detail. Perhaps between the threads scattered across the forum and the factory manual, along with the knowledge that others have done this and odds are some are not mechanically adept either, I'll get the job done using the cuss words I already know.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I'm sure you'll discover that paucity of information that you expect, which is probably why many of us use the expanded parts diagrams (frequently called 'the fiche' here. ) to help with the dismantling & re-assembly process; and most of the smarter operators take LOTS of pics as they go along, too!! Watching all the Video's out there might help you a little bit, but they too invariably tend to gloss over the bits that you really need some guidance with, very likely because it's so obvious to anyone who knows the job backwards and sideways, but for those of us who don't!! :gaah:

But that said, the various models/generations REALLY ARE very similar in most respects apart from the cosmetics. You're right, your ST doesn't really LOOK much like my RT, but I can assure you, take all the tupperware & screens off and most would be hard pressed to know the difference. :lecturef_smilie: Little things like the foot-plates and the different style handlebars might give it away to someone familiar with both and clued in enough to look, but the basic frame is the same; the suspension & running gear's all the same; the engine's the same; the basic wiring loom is the same; and the vast majority of the maintenance & servicing's the same too!! hyea:

So it's really just a matter of working out how to get the tupperware on and off for your year/model, which is identical across every ST from 2013 until the end of ST production, unless maybe one Spyder's had the 'Heat Recall Panel Swap' done & the other hasn't! And all up, it's really very similar to the 2013 RS's, RSS's, and RT's too. Before 2013 there were slightly more cosmetic differences, but underneath, in all the important aspects, they truly are all much of a muchness. :thumbup:

And while there might not be a heap of current ST owners still around, we've got a few previous owners here who still frequent the boards & will chip in if they think they can help, plus a few like me who have the pleasure of playing with other people's Spyders on a reasonably regular basis - so if you ever get stuck, you can always ask! :thumbup: Just be prepared, you might not get an immediate response, cos apart from those of us who spend waaayy too much time here for anyone's sanity, most members tend to visit on a more periodic basis, many less frequently than once a week! There's also lots of 'early info' available in the threads & posts from years past too, so I'm sure we can help lead you down the garden p... pps: err, get whatever you need to do done, eventually! :cheers:

 

[Mikey]

Unfortunately, I am standing on the doorstep with you on the adventure of changing plugs on the 998! From all of my research and video watching, I am putting it somewhere in a 4 category. The hardest part for me is getting the right enough of balls to start the job. From all of the things I have gotten into on this bike stepping in the water is the worst part of the whole project! And the hard part is that there is really no one out there that has really done a video of the job from start to finish. Peter's right about the frame part of our bikes, BRP has just changed the outside skin of the bike for the most part from your bike to mine the bones of the bike are the same. If you poke around on youtube you'll come across a guy from England or Australia that is doing a 2011 RT I believe that give you a pretty good idea of what you're going to see. I am pretty sure that after I get it done, I will look back and tell myself, what the heck were you so scared about. Good luck, do your homework!

 

[UtahPete]

Why do you want to change them ???? .... how many miles do you have on this Spyder ..... Mike :thumbup:

Actually, Mike, now that I understand what O.P. is doing (trying to ensure his new to him used Spyder is in good shape mechanically) I'm inclined to agree with you. Spark plug replacement is one of the most challenging (and expensive) routine maintenance jobs on any Spyder, and there are many posts on the wisdom of extending the replacing cycle to twice the recommended mileage.

There are other, easier tasks to perform to ensure the machine is performing reliably. And, to get familiar with 'getting under the hood' of a Spyder.

 

[ARtraveler]

I know it's coming down to 'semantics', but it does make it a lot easier for everyone reading and especially for all those with the same issues and/or any who might potentially help you if you use the same terminology as everyone else, so there's just a few things that are worth clarifying here Columbia....

In this Post of mine, one of 11 or so in the Thread so far, I've quoted your Post #7 above. A collection of Posts all on the same subject and following one after another make a Thread, cos the discussion follows the same thread & the posts all string together. We try very hard to make sure that all the Threads here go into the most appropriate sub-forum (in this case, Spyder ST - Sport Touring ) under the applicable section (in this case, Spyder & Ryker Discussions hyea: ) so that both now and into the future, it'll make it easier for anyone looking/searching on the subject. But do note that most regular readers/Members use the provided 'New Posts', 'Today's Posts', or 'What's New' searches (see the menu lines above the scrolling Sponsor's banners & below the Spyder Community line ) to see what's happened on the Forum since they were last here, so they may not easily see what Section or Sub-Forum you've put your thread into - which is why we try very hard to encourage posters to briefly state their question in the Thread Title of any New Thread they may start!

Other media &/or sites may have different Rules, conventions, and might even use different terminology, but the conventions above have been around and used in Internet Forums pretty much since Internet Forums were invented... and altho it does make me feel old to admit it, I was around & involved in the industry when that happened! :shocked: Anyhow, that's the basic housekeeping stuff, now on to the ST Specific stuff.... hyea:



With regards to your ST, there really isn't all that much that's MAJORLY different between it and all the 998 powered RT's, except for the final fit & trim stuff ahead of the seat and the rear Panniers & Trunk alongside/behind the seat. AND once again, apart from the final fit & trim, there's also really not all that much difference between your ST & all the GS & RS/RSS's out there especially the later model Spyders. :lecturef_smilie: So apart from some relatively minor differences that are largely cosmetic, all the threads that refer to changing the plugs and leads on any similar year/model Spyder (especially those since 2013) with the same V-Twin 991 model 998cc Rotax motor, will apply equally as well to your ST in MOST respects, altho there may be some (relatively minor) differences in the way you have to remove the tupperware, which may have some (relatively minor) differences in appearance depending upon the year/model Spyder of any ilk - GS, RS, RSS, or RT that it is. Sure, there are SOME differences, but having worked on them all, they really are relatively minor, especially once they hit the 'Upgrade Models' in 2013, cos from 2013 on, the RS's, the RSS's, the ST's, and the RT's regardless of which trim level within that particular model were very much the same bikes underneath with only minor tupperware & fittings differences!

So I can tell you for a fact that they're ALL a pain to work on, but if you want to swap the plugs and leads on your 2015 ST, a Spyder that has the same 998 cc V-Twin motor as my 2013 RT and any 2013 & on RS, RSS, or ST Spyders, then apart from the (relatively minor) differences in the appearance and way you actually remove some of the tupperware, the mirrors etc, and apart from a few minor bits inside (that you & your ST generally get somewhat easier than the RT owners/techs do! :sour: ) you'll still hafta do pretty much everything I hafta do to change my RT's plugs & leads; and on either Spyder, in factory trim, it's a right pain, largely because of all the bulky Ait Box & the 'pre-air filter' air inlet trunking!! :gaah:

Your paragraph on the ST is right on the money Peter. :bowdown: There is absolutely no difference between the RT format and the ST format regarding engine components. It's all the same engine and components. The ST was a way to buy a "stripped down" RT...such as the GS and RS were before the introduction of the RT. You could get the "bare" ST which took the RT back to the GS/RS version or you could add accessories such as saddlebags, windshield etc. to dress it up. I never figured out the reasoning for that one...add bags, and a windshield, might as well get a basic RT. :dontknow:

Mechanically, a Spyder with a 998 engine is just that. Most are finding out that plugs will last up to 50,000 miles or more. It is usually the "wiring" that gets screwed up. That happened to me on my 2008 GS. Wiring got a bare spot and would short out if I drove in the rain. :bowdown: