Clutch Question?

[l0ckman]

OK guys I have a question. I have a 2010 :spyder2:RT/AC SM5 10,000 plus miles. I bought it used:2thumbs: $18,000.00 with less than 600 miles at a non dealer shop.

Took it in for the 10,000 mile service, told the service guy that it seems to slip when passing, catching up, or going up some grades, etc. please check it out.

They come back and tell me it needs a new clutch,:yikes: and that I have been not keeping the rpm's up, and that has caused the issue.:banghead:New clutch and parts installed about $800.00. Does this sound right:dontknow:, and they gave me a parts list with #'s to shop around to try to get the parts online or what ever cheaper.:hun: Can I get them after market and do I want them after market? Help

Michael

 

[NancysToy]

Here is the situation... The Spyder SE clutch does not fully engage until approximately 3,000-3,500 rpm. Short shifting and operating at this threshold or below can, indeed, cause clutch damage. BRP has done two things to address this issue. They have put out an update to the TCM which raises the allowable shift points slightly, and they have issued a revised clutch pack that has an extra plate and disc. There is also a new clutch pack for the SM. The list price on the cluch pack is around $500, and you need a few more parts and supplies, plus labor. I am not surprised at your quote. It seems to be close to the mark, depending on your dealer's labor rate.

 

[Sarge707]

Here is the situation... The Spyder SE clutch does not fully engage until approximately 3,000-3,500 rpm. Short shifting and operating at this threshold or below can, indeed, cause clutch damage. BRP has done two things to address this issue. They have put out an update to the TCM which raises the allowable shift points slightly, and they have issued a revised clutch pack that has an extra plate and disc. There is also a new clutch pack for the SM. The list price on the cluch pack is around $500, and you need a few more parts and supplies, plus labor. I am not surprised at your quote. It seems to be close to the mark, depending on your dealer's labor rate.

1- If I am always shifting above 4,000 RPM,s (2012RT sm5) and never running LESS than 3,500 will the Manual clutch last a decent amount of time?? 2- I thought the Manual might be Less problematic than the SE- I have 24,000 on my 09GS SE5 with No problems?
3- Is replacing the clutch Major engine work on a Spyder SM5?
"Always Trying to Learn!"

 

[NancysToy]

1- If I am always shifting above 4,000 RPM,s (2012RT sm5) and never running LESS than 3,500 will the Manual clutch last a decent amount of time??
2- I thought the Manual might be Less problematic than the SE- I have 24,000 on my 09GS SE5 with No problems?
3- Is replacing the clutch Major engine work on a Spyder SM5?
"Always Trying to Learn!"

1 - You need to shift at or above about 4,500 rpm to keep above 3,500 in the higher gear. Operating at 4,000 rpm would be preferable, IMO. Clutch wear is acceptable in both models, if operated properly.

2 - I don't know is either is problematic, if properly ridden. The SE is a bit more complex, but it has shown no glaring faulkts as longf as the rpm was kept high enough, the oil level kept up, and the oil/filters changed in a timely fashion.

3 - Replacing the clutch does not require engine removal. It is accessible through the side cover. It does take some careful measurement/adjustment and some skill, but it would not be hard for a good mechanic.

These are my opinions, and they may not be shared by others. As far as I know, though, SE sales exceed that of the manuals, which says quite a bit.

 

[MtlBen]

1 - You need to shift at or above about 4,500 rpm to keep above 3,500 in the higher gear. Operating at 4,000 rpm would be preferable, IMO. Clutch wear is acceptable in both models, if operated properly.

Any idea what would explain the specific RPM shift point for an SM5 ? User-induced clutch slippage at release time due to lack of engine torque at low RPM ?

In my book, slip & wear only occurs during clutch slippage, while the lever is being released. If the shifts were fast enough, it should not suffer excessive wear & tear at any RPM.

...Ben...

 

[jerpinoy]

Great info to all :yes:

 

[boborgera]

Any idea what would explain the specific RPM shift point for an SM5 ? User-induced clutch slippage at release time due to lack of engine torque at low RPM ?

In my book, slip & wear only occurs during clutch slippage, while the lever is being released. If the shifts were fast enough, it should not suffer excessive wear & tear at any RPM.

...Ben...

If you shift at too low rpms, with a manual you would have to ride/feather/slip the clutch [to avoid stalling/lugging] and feed gas at the same time'
And if you do that too often it will cause premature ware.

 

[l0ckman]

If you shift at too low rpms, with a manual you would have to ride/feather/slip the clutch [to avoid stalling/lugging] and feed gas at the same time'
And if you do that too often it will cause premature ware.

I have been riding bikes since I was a teenager about 50 years. I know how to shift and to use the clutch. That said I do tend not to shift at high rpm's but I don't lug the engine either. Would you think that would cause premature clutch failure?

Michael

 

[mcaccamise]

Premature wear or slipage could be caused by a bad pressure plate with weak springs not necessarely your fault if you nolonger have a warentee and have the tools and knowledge for the job change out the clutch pack and check the pressure plate with parts in kit its not a hard job just time consuming,get a good manual.

 

[NancysToy]

Any idea what would explain the specific RPM shift point for an SM5 ? User-induced clutch slippage at release time due to lack of engine torque at low RPM ?

In my book, slip & wear only occurs during clutch slippage, while the lever is being released. If the shifts were fast enough, it should not suffer excessive wear & tear at any RPM.

...Ben...

The SE clutch is not fully engaged until 3,200 rpm +/- 200 rpm. Allow for a little leeway, just to make sure, and that's where the number comes from.

 

[Sarge707]

1 - You need to shift at or above about 4,500 rpm to keep above 3,500 in the higher gear. Operating at 4,000 rpm would be preferable, IMO. Clutch wear is acceptable in both models, if operated properly.

2 - I don't know is either is problematic, if properly ridden. The SE is a bit more complex, but it has shown no glaring faulkts as longf as the rpm was kept high enough, the oil level kept up, and the oil/filters changed in a timely fashion.

3 - Replacing the clutch does not require engine removal. It is accessible through the side cover. It does take some careful measurement/adjustment and some skill, but it would not be hard for a good mechanic.

These are my opinions, and they may not be shared by others. As far as I know, though, SE sales exceed that of the manuals, which says quite a bit.

:agree: Actually , With the RT I,m shifting More like 5,500 to 8,000 depending on my mood and Never let it get below 4,000.
To me the RT "Just Feels " to need more RPM,s to perform like the GS because of the weight.
I can ride a FLAT Country road on the GS in 4th gear at (About) 3,700 rpm,s and 45 MPH while on the RT on the same road I,m in 3rd Gear up to and a Little Over 50 MPH before I even think about 4th gear! The RT (To Me) seems to prefer being closer to the 5,000 RPM,s than the 230 Pound lighter GS.

 

[boborgera]

I have been riding bikes since I was a teenager about 50 years. I know how to shift and to use the clutch. That said I do tend not to shift at high rpm's but I don't lug the engine either. Would you think that would cause premature clutch failure?

Michael

Because it will cause premature ''ware'', I don't think i said Failure,?
Slipping/feathering a clutch will cause ''ware''. It has nothing to do with lugging.

 

[l0ckman]

Because it will cause premature ''ware'', I don't think i said Failure,?
Slipping/feathering a clutch will cause ''ware''. It has nothing to do with lugging.

Sorry "my bad" I meant "wear" not "failure"pps:. I guess I just thought that when I let go of the clutch leaver that the clutch was fully engaged:dontknow:. That is apparently not so because I do not feather the clutch in any way. It must be that when I cruise at 55 mph in 5th gear at just around 4,000 rpm that is not good, I have to keep the rpm up higher. I thought I was saving money on gas mileage at the cost:gaah: of the clutch, again "my bad":banghead:

Michael

 

[spyryder]

Sorry "my bad" I meant "wear" not "failure"pps:. I guess I just thought that when I let go of the clutch leaver that the clutch was fully engaged:dontknow:. That is apparently not so because I do not feather the clutch in any way. It must be that when I cruise at 55 mph in 5th gear at just around 4,000 rpm that is not good, I have to keep the rpm up higher. I thought I was saving money on gas mileage at the cost:gaah: of the clutch, again "my bad":banghead:

Michael

Nothing wrong with that. There should be no problem cruising in 5th at 4000 rpm.

 

[BajaRon]

1- If I am always shifting above 4,000 RPM,s (2012RT sm5) and never running LESS than 3,500 will the Manual clutch last a decent amount of time??

As far as the manual clutch is concerned it doesn't matter when, or at what RPM you make your shifts, the manual clutch doesn't care. It won't wear out any faster with low RPM shifts than it will with high RPM shifts as long as you don't slip it. The Rotax engine, however, does not like to be lugged so there is more to this issue than just possible clutch wear.

Lugging is not just a matter of RPM. There is an RPM range within which it depends on conditions.

If you are going downhill and not applying much throttle the engine will be happy at an RPM that would lug the engine in other situations. That same low RPM might well be lugging the engine if you were climbing a hill or applying throttle to accelerate.

It's not so much having to be careful with the clutch. The clutch on the Spyder is a good one. It's more of using it as designed, especially on the SE's.

The issue with clutch wear on an SE Spyder has to do with the shifting mechanism and how it engages the clutch. The SE automatically feathers (or slips) the clutch so you get a smooth transition on shifts. At RPM's below about 3,200 this feathering is in effect for an extended period of time causing undue wear. The clutch will not fully engage (Lock-Up) until about 3,200 RPM. Until the clutch is fully engaged, you are wearing out the clutch plates.

So, if you make a lot of shifts on an SE Spyder below the Lock-Up RPM range, you are incurring a lot of slippage and wear on your clutch plates. This will cause your clutch to fail prematurely.

Since most people don't spend a lot of time watching their tach every time they shift, the best thing is to learn what your engine sounds like at about 3,500 RPM and shift in that range. That gives you the cushion or safety factor that many have mentioned and will greatly reduce clutch wear. It also avoids much of the engine lugging issues.

Using the correct 'Wet Clutch Application' oil is also very important. An oil rated MA-2 is highly recommended.

The SE clutch should last as long as the SM clutch if both are used properly.

 

[Sarge707]

Manual Shifting Wear?

OK- If you shift quickly and in the proper RPM/Torque range the clutch should Not wear excessively on the MANUAL Transmission as Long as your Not feathering it in Second Gear around a Slow/Sharp 90 degree turn When you should have downshifted to 1st Gear instead.

How about Every time you take off in 1st gear from a Stop with the Manual? Aren,t you wearing it every time you let it out gently while leaving the Stop Light?:dontknow:

Is there a Preferred way to let the Clutch out from the Stop with the Manual?:dontknow:

Thanks for any Experience ypu bring!!!

 

[NancysToy]

..... I guess I just thought that when I let go of the clutch leaver that the clutch was fully engaged. .....

When you let the clutch out all the way (no pressure on the lever) it is fully engaged. The SE is different, it has a centrifugal engagement mechanism.

.....How about Every time you take off in 1st gear from a Stop with the Manual? Aren,t you wearing it every time you let it out gently while leaving the Stop Light?:dontknow:

All clutches wear slightly at the point of engagement, but this is so small on a wet clutch as to be almost unnoticeable. Even a dry clutch will give tens of thousands of miles before the wear exceeds service limits. Don't worry about it!

Is there a Preferred way to let the Clutch out from the Stop with the Manual?:dontknow:

Just let it out so that you don't stall the engine or slip it excessively and obviously. You will know when it bucks or stalls, and also when the engine races because you haven't released the lever enough. This is not some sort of tightrope walk. Just ride it, and you'll be an "expert" in no time.

 

[BajaRon]

I agree with Scotty. It's not something to worry about. Like most things it just takes a bit of understanding and a small amount of attention. People who have been riding awhile never give it a second thought.

It's a lot like tires. If you spin them a lot they are going to wear prematurely. If you don't, they will last you a long time.

The issue really came to light when people who had come off low RPM machines like a Harley, or for whatever reason did not like to rev their Spyder, were shifting at the wrong RPM. Some went out of their way to shift at very low RPM's thinking they were saving fuel. Their clutches started giving out long before they should have. The cause was discovered (shifting at too low an RPM) and so the word went out that the SE machines needed at least 3,200 RPM for the automatic clutch to work properly.

As far as I know, there hasn't been any real issue at all with the manual clutch. And if everyone starts shifting the SE's where they should, that problem will go away too.

 

[ThreeWheels]

I had my SM5 manual clutch go at about 17,000 miles.
Since the day I bought it, I had trouble putting the bike in Neutral.
I hadn't given this much thought since I've had trouble finding Neutral with other bikes.
I had a lot of discussions with my dealer and BRP.
I was told the RT is a big bike and to expect the clutch to go at that mileage.
I basically said "Phooey------------you mean to tell me that my BRAKES are going to last longer than my clutch ??"
I got the clutch replaced and now the transmission is silky smooth. Finding neutral is a piece of cake.
The clutch had been installed incorrectly from the factory on day one.

 

[BajaRon]

I had my SM5 manual clutch go at about 17,000 miles.
Since the day I bought it, I had trouble putting the bike in Neutral.
I hadn't given this much thought since I've had trouble finding Neutral with other bikes.
I had a lot of discussions with my dealer and BRP.
I was told the RT is a big bike and to expect the clutch to go at that mileage.
I basically said "Phooey------------you mean to tell me that my BRAKES are going to last longer than my clutch ??"
I got the clutch replaced and now the transmission is silky smooth. Finding neutral is a piece of cake.
The clutch had been installed incorrectly from the factory on day one.

You're right about that... The Spyder transmission is one of the smoothest I've ever owned on a motorcycle.