Checking oil level

[frank3]

Just a thought but wondering why there couldn't be some acceptable way to check the Spyder oil level, while the engine is cold and has set for some period of time. The reason I'm asking this question is I'm always frustrated with the foam in the oil when checking it as outlined in the owners manual. Perhaps, I'm not waiting long enough after shutting the engine off but at any rate, if you follow the procedure, mine at least, will always read higher than I think it should because of the 1/2 to 1" of foam on top of the oil in the oil tank. Seems to me that checking it on level ground, cold and having set for at least a couple of hours, should be doable. Of course, I'd expect the oil level to be much lower at that point but I'd think it would be predictable. Seems that the same (constant) ammount of oil would drain back into the engine crankcase. opcorn:Thoughts?

 

[Bob Denman]

The only thought that I can come up with is to try to follow the manufacturer's instructions. :thumbup:

After all; they came up with the engines, so they must have a decent idea of how to service them properly!
I doubt that they'd try to make any tougher than it absolutely needs to be!

 

[NancysToy]

One of the reasons for checking at normal operating temperature is to have the oil at about the same temperature every time. The temperature can change the volume quite a bit, and in a small volume system such as this, the readings could be off enough to matter. Most manufacturers specify the conditions and procedures for checking the oil. It pays to follow their recommendations. Try waiting 30-60 seconds after shutting off the engine to let the foam subside. What oil are you using? Some oils are more prone to foaming than others.

 

[GeoffCee]

After all; they came up with the engines, so they must have a decent idea of how to service them properly!
I doubt that they'd try to make any tougher than it absolutely needs to be!

Taking a reading when the Spyder's oil is fully up to running temperature is problematic. Oil at engine temperature is permeated with rising bubbles and you'd better take your reading quickly because from the moment you kill the ignition the hot, thin oil is already seeping out of the tank and heading for the crankcase. The reading is taken against a dip stick which has to be unscrewed, wiped dry, fully screwed back into its aperture, then unscrewed again for the reading. It's a hurried procedure which in my experience does not lend itself to accuracy. I've never enjoyed checking the Spyder's oil. :sour:

 

[NancysToy]

Taking a reading when the Spyder's oil is fully up to running temperature is problematic. Oil at engine temperature is permeated with rising bubbles and you'd better take your reading quickly because from the moment you kill the ignition the hot, thin oil is already seeping out of the tank and heading for the crankcase. The reading is taken against a dip stick which has to be unscrewed, wiped dry, fully screwed back into its aperture, then unscrewed again for the reading. It's a hurried procedure which in my experience does not lend itself to accuracy. I've never enjoyed checking the Spyder's oil. :sour:

If the check valve in your system is working properly, the oil will not drain back to the crankcase...at least not quickly. You do have to run the engine at least 30 seconds to evacuate the crankcase, just in case, but you do not have to move like a jack-rabbit or super-hero after you shut things off. Most of the immediate drop is caused by dissipation of the bubbles of foam.

 

[rcturner]

I always keep my oil close to the full mark on the dipstick and, when checking, I can easily wait 1/2 hour between how shut down and when I actually get around to checking the oil. In mine, there is little to no difference in the reading if I check it within seconds or 1/2 hour later.

 

[GeoffCee]

If the check valve in your system is working properly, the oil will not drain back to the crankcase...at least not quickly. You do have to run the engine at least 30 seconds to evacuate the crankcase, just in case, but you do not have to move like a jack-rabbit or super-hero after you shut things off. Most of the immediate drop is caused by dissipation of the bubbles of foam.

You're right, I have been moving like a jack-rabbit over this thing! (But never like a super-hero, I don't have the physique). I read and reacted to the Instruction Manual which seemed to imply that the time taken for this was of the essence. Your check-valve info is great news, at least it is to me. I'm most obliged to you, Scotty, my oil checks will henceforth be carried out at a more leisurely pace! :thumbup:

 

[NancysToy]

You're right, I have been moving like a jack-rabbit over this thing! (But never like a super-hero, I don't have the physique). I read and reacted to the Instruction Manual which seemed to imply that the time taken for this was of the essence. Your check-valve info is great news, at least it is to me. I'm most obliged to you, Scotty, my oil checks will henceforth be carried out at a more leisurely pace! :thumbup:

Not too leisurely. I wouldn't take 5 minutes, but there is time to take off the cover and grab a rag. The best thing to do is try to be consistent, and check at about the same interval every time. A good test for your check valve is to check several times at one minute intervals. The level should drop off at first, as bubbles dissipate, then stay steady until the oil temp starts to drop. If the level continues to drop, it could just be the position of the oil pump rotors, or it could be a bad check. If it does it on several tests in a row, you may want to contact a dealer...although as long as the scavenging pump keeps it from wet sumping (filling the crankcase) during operation, it won't do any harm. It is just inconvenient. A large volume of oil in the sump instead of the tank at an oil change, can also indicate a bad check.

 

[Bob Denman]

Very informative; as usual! :clap: :firstplace:
And I'm gonna take my time now also when I'm checking the oil level... :thumbup: (But not TOO much!)

 

[GeoffCee]

In mine, there is little to no difference in the reading if I check it within seconds or 1/2 hour later.

I've never taken a delayed reading like that, no particular reason why not, it just never occurred to me. You can be sure I will, though, the next time, just to see what happens. Thanks.

 

[frank3]

Thanks

As always, Scotty has provided a virtual wealth of information. I think I'm over anxious about the "drain back" issue. I generally check it very quickly, ckeck it again and then wait for the foam to settle and check again. I'm never comfortable with the reading on the dip stick. Much of this is the result of past oil leak problems with the Spyder and having to worry about the oil level. The oil leak problems seem to have been resolved now (for the first time in 2 years). Guess I just need to settle down try to supress my paranoia over this issue. Still wish it were possible to establish an acceptable procedure for a cold engine. At any rate, thanks all for the feedback.

 

[Bob Denman]

If ,for example, I am buying a ship full of crude I want to ensure the meter measuring the crude is accurate, so before I buy the oil I would want to use a prover on the meter.
One of the calculations is for the thermal expansion of oil.
You use something called the coefficient of expansion in the calculations.
I don't have at my fingertips the actual CoF for BRP's synthetic but refined oil and synthetic oil have very close coefficients of expansion.
I'll do the math.
If at 60[SUP]o[/SUP]F the oil volume in the engine is 1.3 gallons and the temperature raises to 180[SUP]o[/SUP]F then the oil volume expands to 1.3608 gallons.

This is starting to sound an awful lot like a Math Problem...:shocked:

 

[BajaRon]

You're right, I have been moving like a jack-rabbit over this thing! (But never like a super-hero, I don't have the physique). I read and reacted to the Instruction Manual which seemed to imply that the time taken for this was of the essence. Your check-valve info is great news, at least it is to me. I'm most obliged to you, Scotty, my oil checks will henceforth be carried out at a more leisurely pace! :thumbup:

Scotty is right. You don't need to be an Olympic class athlete to properly check the oil in a Spyder. I think BRP wanted to impress upon people how important it is to check the oil in the Spyder 'Properly'. Any dry sump system is a bit more temperamental in this area than a standard oil pan system.

My 1970 Honda 750 was a dry sump system as are a number of motorcycles. It is more about the correct process than it is about speed in checking. That's all. The check valve in the reservoir system is a must. Otherwise, the crankcase would fill with oil while sitting and might be a problem on start-up.

Foaming oil, on the other hand, is not only a real pain, but can be detrimental to your motor. If there is foam on your stick, there is very likely foam in your motor. Foam does not lubricate.

A high revving, high performance engine like the Rotax 998 can make lesser lubricants foam. Add transmission and clutch duties to the same oil and you're asking a lot.

As everyone knows I am a big fan of Amsoil. I can check my oil level as soon as I shut down after a 120 mile run at 70mph + in triple digit heat and have virtually no foam on my stick. If that were the only advantage to using Amsoil it would be worth it to me. There really is a difference in oils. Get one that doesn't foam and meets all the other requirements of the Spyder engine.

You ask a lot of your Spyder, give it a little help with a good oil that doesn't foam.

 

[NancysToy]

Virtually all dry sump systems I have seen collect some foam in the oil tank. As Ron said, foam doesn't lubricate...but it does float! That means it ends up in the top of the tank, while the oil pump pulls the oil off the bottom. If your oil level gets too low, some foam can be sucked in, which is the best reason for keeping the oil level right. The Spyder engine seems to be quite sensitive to proper oil level...especially the SE, but in general dry sump engines have quite a bit of leeway in oil level. The old Triumphs didn't even have a dipstick...just a mark on the outside of the tank.

 

[BajaRon]

Virtually all dry sump systems I have seen collect some foam in the oil tank. As Ron said, foam doesn't lubricate...but it does float! That means it ends up in the top of the tank, while the oil pump pulls the oil off the bottom. If your oil level gets too low, some foam can be sucked in, which is the best reason for keeping the oil level right. The Spyder engine seems to be quite sensitive to proper oil level...especially the SE, but in general dry sump engines have quite a bit of leeway in oil level. The old Triumphs didn't even have a dipstick...just a mark on the outside of the tank.

Didn't some of those old Limey bikes have a sight gauge on the holding tank? Maybe even some of the Japanese bikes too?

I've been told by those who are supposed to know that that the problem with an oil that foams a lot (and what is a lot?) comes on the backside of the oil pump, especially in transmissions. I don't thing there is a real danger of sucking foam in the oil pump of our Spyders because you're right, a dry sump is very forgiving on oil level issues (on the low side anyway).

The thicker the oil, the more chance you have of sucking foam (or air for that matter) in a dry sump system. But we run pretty thin oil with a deep reservoir which makes for a lot of margin for error (again, on the low side).

Still, I keep my oil at the full mark.

 

[bmwlarry]

When I had my bike serviced at the dealership, the tech told me that he has learned a shortcut. When the bike is warm, just shut it down, removed the panel, unscrew the oil dipstick, wipe it off and reset it in the opening (not screwing it in). When full, the level will rest dead center on the top "X". He said there is no need to rescrew it in and reference the "level markings".
Just saying!

 

[GeoffCee]

When I had my bike serviced at the dealership, the tech told me that he has learned a shortcut. When the bike is warm, just shut it down, removed the panel, unscrew the oil dipstick, wipe it off and reset it in the opening (not screwing it in). When full, the level will rest dead center on the top "X". He said there is no need to rescrew it in and reference the "level markings".
Just saying!

You can be sure I'll try that for myself. It sounds simple enough to be a really great idea. ray:

 

[bertmc]

Keep it full?

Didn't some of those old Limey bikes have a sight gauge on the holding tank? Maybe even some of the Japanese bikes too?

I've been told by those who are supposed to know that that the problem with an oil that foams a lot (and what is a lot?) comes on the backside of the oil pump, especially in transmissions. I don't thing there is a real danger of sucking foam in the oil pump of our Spyders because you're right, a dry sump is very forgiving on oil level issues (on the low side anyway).

The thicker the oil, the more chance you have of sucking foam (or air for that matter) in a dry sump system. But we run pretty thin oil with a deep reservoir which makes for a lot of margin for error (again, on the low side).

Still, I keep my oil at the full mark.

I had a Japanese bike with a sight gauge. I don't remember which one.

But my primary question is this: Seems like I have read comments in the last year about running the oil level at about 1/2 on the dipstick to prevent excess oil in the air box. Is this a bad idea if you use good oil, check it regularly & keep it at that level?

I saw Ron at the BarBQ giving someone a strip of foam mesh of some kind to prevent blow-by. I guess that's a better idea than running the oil lower. Do you just stick that foam strip someplace where the sun don't shine?

I know most of you don't want to hear this, but every time I check my oil I long for the good ol' days on my Gold Wing when it was a waste of time to check your oil unless you had signs of a leak and you didn't need to use luggage space on a long trip for a quart of oil. Sorry, I won't make any more Gold Wing comparisons (for a while). I like my Spyder.

 

[Rayelljay]

I have a 12" length of 1/4" sq. dowel I carry with me in the frunk. At my first oil change I was careful to get the level correct by the book. When I was sure it was OK I inserted the dowel through the filler until it bottomed out in the tank, withdrew it and made a mark at the full level.
Now, all I do is remove the side cover, unscrew the filler cap, insert the dowel to the bottom of the tank, withdraw it and check the difference and bring the oil to the correct level if necessary.
Works like a charm.

 

[BajaRon]

I had a Japanese bike with a sight gauge. I don't remember which one.

But my primary question is this: Seems like I have read comments in the last year about running the oil level at about 1/2 on the dipstick to prevent excess oil in the air box. Is this a bad idea if you use good oil, check it regularly & keep it at that level?

I saw Ron at the BarBQ giving someone a strip of foam mesh of some kind to prevent blow-by. I guess that's a better idea than running the oil lower. Do you just stick that foam strip someplace where the sun don't shine?

I know most of you don't want to hear this, but every time I check my oil I long for the good ol' days on my Gold Wing when it was a waste of time to check your oil unless you had signs of a leak and you didn't need to use luggage space on a long trip for a quart of oil. Sorry, I won't make any more Gold Wing comparisons (for a while). I like my Spyder.

It's ok to compare the Spyder to a Gold Wing or any other vehicle as long as the comparison is valid. No one wants oil usage but some engines simply use oil, even if they are in good condition. The Rotax 998 seems to be one of them. Though not universal, big cylinder, high RPM engines do tend to use oil.

My Valkyrie (a Gold Wing knock off) didn't use any oil. Neither did my 750 Honda. My Suzuki M109R doesn't use oil either. Though it is a big cylinder engine it is a low RPM motor.

You also have the added issue with at least some Spyders that they will put oil into the air box. Using oil is one thing but spitting it into the air box is unacceptable to me. Some have recommended running the oil a 1/2 quart low. I guess that works but again, not acceptable to me. Oil is the life blood of an engine. How would you do a pt low on blood?

I and others have developed what I think are good solutions to A- Running the oil level where it should be and B- keeping it out of the air cleaner. Here is a link to my solution (which you alluded to in your post). Bajaron's oil catch can

Some have saved a step by eliminating the sight glass. I guess that works ok but I like to see what's going on. The sight glass gives a larger diameter which slows air velocity and gives a larger volume for the foam to fill. This helps the system work better.

Hope this helps. I'ts worked great for me for about 25,000 miles. Thanks to ameobe for going to the effort to post this 'How To'.