Cat delete baffle option

[G8tr]

I have a cat delete pipe that I put on a month ago, I first tried it without a baffle but was very dissatisfied with the loss of low end torque. So I removed it and put a baffle in that came with the cat delete, I got some of the low end torque back but wasn’t satisfied. So, I put the cat back in.

Fast forward to Missouri July heat and the difference in heat between the cat delete in versus the cat was substantial.

My cat delete is now back on and here to stay.

I want the best low end torque I can get with the cat delete and would like advice as to what the best options are? I’ve seen posts where there are two baffles one forward and one back in the cat delete. I don’t care about sound, I had massive sound for 19 years from my Harley fat boy so am happy with the quiet Spyder. I’m big on performance but want the low heat of the cat delete.

I have a 2018 F3 Limited with a Rotax Racing (Jase) stage 2 tune, K&N filter, with a Pedal Commander Throttle Response Controller on the way.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Did Jase do the tune with the cat delete in mind?? :dontknow: If he didn't/hasn't, and he probably didn't unless you told him it had happened or was going to happen, you might want to talk to him about looking at your ECU again. My 'Jase tuned' RT with a Cat Delete has absobloodylutely NO lack of low end, mid range, or top end torque!! In fact, it's got more stonking torque on tap straight off from clutch engagement revs to right out to well past its normal rev limits than most 1330's!! hyea:

Oh, and the other thing to ask is 'have you been letting the engine idle for 10-15 mins or so before riding off after each of these changes you've made?' Cos if you haven't been doing that, which gives the cpmputer time to reset all its mapping & response info, you've probably been experiencing the 'old tune' set-up with the 'new exhaust flow' parameters, and they don't necessarily go well together!! That 'make a change; let it idle for a while to re-learn things' bit is VERY important!! You can't just swap out or in a baffle &/or change the exhaust & then immediately ride off and immediately feel the difference.... even these modern computers need to take their time to learn how to best operate after changes like that! :thumbup:

Get back to Jase, he'll sort your Spyder! :2thumbs:

 

[G8tr]

Thanks for the info, the tune was done by Jase before the cat delete but I did talk to him about it after I did it, he didn’t mention it needed retuning but I will ask him again. That would have to wait till January since I ride mine in very cold weather well into winter. I’ll post if he wants me to send it in. By then I’ll have experience with the throttle controller too.

You’re correct, I didn’t let it idle but I would think after riding awhile the computer would adjust automatically. Is pre-ride idle a “magic button” for remap? By chance, since I was installing a wheel balancer from Lamonster when I put the cat delete back on this week I did idle it for quite some time as I was re-testing the rear wheel alignment and drive belt testing so indirectly it got the treatment.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

All you have to do is ride it. The fuel trim re-adjustment is done based on the signal from the O2 sensor. So, you have to ride it through a full range of operation. The only thing idling will accomplish is to adjust the fuel trim for idle conditions, nothing more. No magic button. That’s just another piece of bum dope that got loose on here a few years ago.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Yeah, I don't think the 'pre-ride idle' is a magic button per se G8tr, but by doing that you reset the 'baseline parameters' and you'll generally get to notice the improvements &/or changes a lot sooner. hyea:

Certainly, if you DON'T do that pre-ride idle period, it is very likely that it'll take you somewhat more riding before the 'upgrades' you've paid for will be noticeable across the board - and I've seen this effect on quite a few of Spyders now. Do the pre-ride idle period, the upgrades are usually quite noticeable as soon as they first take off & there's a happy rider: no pre-ride idle, then people complain about getting little improvement or even degraded performance.... until some time down track, when it slowly dawns on some of those how much better their machine is now behaving.... :dontknow:

But I'd still be talking to Jase about it if I were you G8tr! :thumbup:

 

[G8tr]

Thanks Doug, good to know.but guys I’d still like to know what the best baffle is if you guys have products you recommend.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Yeah, I don't think the 'pre-ride idle' is a magic button per se G8tr, but by doing that you reset the 'baseline parameters' and you'll generally get to notice the improvements &/or changes a lot sooner. hyea:

Certainly, if you DON'T do that pre-ride idle period, it is very likely that it'll take you somewhat more riding before the 'upgrades' you've paid for will be noticeable across the board - and I've seen this effect on quite a few of Spyders now. Do the pre-ride idle period, the upgrades are usually quite noticeable as soon as they first take off & there's a happy rider: no pre-ride idle, then people complain about getting little improvement or even degraded performance.... until some time down track, when it slowly dawns on some of those how much better their machine is now behaving.... :dontknow:

But I'd still be talking to Jase about it if I were you G8tr! :thumbup:

:agree:..... think of the idle - don't idle in this way .... if you are all over the board with the RPM's , how is the computer going to set a Base line .... I suggest you try the idle thing as recommended by Peter .... :thumbup:..... Mike

 

[PMK]

Thanks Doug, good to know.but guys I’d still like to know what the best baffle is if you guys have products you recommend.

FWIW, you do realize that as they say there is no free lunch. Yes, a baffle will accomplish two things, one is reduce rasp in the exhaust tone. Second is in simple terms increase back pressure that often indirectly improves low rpm performance. Not running a baffle ensures that you build more power from about 2500 rpm and up.

Ideally, since your aim is improving low rpm power and torque, you should install the second baffle. You have two options on this. Install them in both in the bypass pipes inlet, just one deeper than the other with some separation, or as you mentioned, one in the inlet and one in the outlet. Installing both in the inlet sets both cones in the same direction. One in the inlet / one in the outlet opposes the cones. If it were me, I would place both in the inlet.

Your other options is to find the resonance point in the exhaust and install the baffle there, only running one baffle. Never tested to find that point since our RTS has no baffles in the bypass pipe.

You failed to mention what muffler you run. Regarding the RT series, I cut one open and while weighing a lot, there is a lot of resonance chambers and baffling of the exhaust flow path. The more straight through you actual muffler, the more you need back pressure.

That said, if you have the capability, you might consider exhaust stinger restrictors. Those can be very effective without hurting the mid and top like a baffle will.

Regarding the idling to dial it in. That is done on new computers or new vehicles to prevent stalling or drivability issues when first built or installed. You need to drive the machine normally for say an hour, before you start searching for low end and more. This is after each mod. Most people that are less tha content with modifications fail to understand the engine computer needs time actually while driving to find the new optimum settings.

 

[troop]

Why would one have to do a 10-15 minute idle adjustment after they have their ECU flashed/tweaked? The ECU parameters were changed. I guess maybe after a baffle added/removed :dontknow:

 

[G8tr]

PMK, Baffles are relatively cheap so I think this is a worthy experiment. I’ll wait until I get the throttle controller though since I want to see each mod incrementally. I have one baffle now and that’ll be my baseline. Can you recommend any vendors and/or specific baffle products.

Btw guys, I’m using the stock muffler at present.

 

[PMK]

PMK, Baffles are relatively cheap so I think this is a worthy experiment. I’ll wait until I get the throttle controller though since I want to see each mod incrementally. I have one baffle now and that’ll be my baseline. Can you recommend any vendors and/or specific baffle products.

Btw guys, I’m using the stock muffler at present.

No recommendations on baffles. Yes, they are inexpensive and if we ran one I would likely tune it as I see fit. Or better yet, design and build my own.

In regards to your setup, if you plan to run the Spyder at higher revs at all, you may be disappointed you installed the baffle.

You might also could also try and find the best length of the exhaust by finding the heat point, then install the baffle there.

 

[PMK]

PMK, Baffles are relatively cheap so I think this is a worthy experiment. I’ll wait until I get the throttle controller though since I want to see each mod incrementally. I have one baffle now and that’ll be my baseline. Can you recommend any vendors and/or specific baffle products.

Btw guys, I’m using the stock muffler at present.

Just so you know, and maybe you already read those posts, another owner here already has done what you are striving for and used basically 60 foot times to validate his changes.

 

[G8tr]

Can you post the link or reference (the forum can be pretty dense)? Thanks so much. (The other guy is probably addicted to escape speed like me. �� I change my own tires so loosing tread isn’t as expensive...)

 

[SportsterDoc]

What is required to idle a Ryker that long?
Keep foot on brake?

From page 35 of 2019 Rkyer owner's manual:

Automatic Engine Shut Down

This vehicle is equipped with a feature
that stop the engine 3 minutes after
the engine operating temperature is
reached.

A shutdown message will appear in the
display, along with beep to prevent that
shutdown will occur shortly.

The engine will be stopping unless one
of the following conditions occurs.
– The brakes are applied.
– The throttle handle is activated.

 

[carbonation]

All you have to do is ride it. The fuel trim re-adjustment is done based on the signal from the O2 sensor. So, you have to ride it through a full range of operation. The only thing idling will accomplish is to adjust the fuel trim for idle conditions, nothing more. No magic button. That’s just another piece of bum dope that got loose on here a few years ago.

Agree. The ECU is not a learning computer. There is no T1000 terminator lurking in there. It's a computer program processing info from O2, temperature, and throttle position to calculate pulse width on the injector. Fuel trim is the result of the calculations and can give clues as to remap avenues to get closer to the optimum FA ratio across the RPM range. I agree, reach out to your tuner again, but understand that unless he is looking at your particular setup, and tuning your ECU for your machine using your choice of fuel, etc., it will be a tune based on his average data from many and other sources.
https://thetuningschool.com/blogs/news/fuel-trims-the-tuning-process

 

[Trbayth]

What is required to idle a Ryker that long?
Keep foot on brake?

Based on the excerpt you posted from the Ryker's manual, I would say yes. Just keep in mind this thread is discussing the 1330 engine; the Ryker's don't use that engine.

 

[blacklightning]

Ok, I can now speak from first hand knowledge on the cat bypass. I picked up a cat delete and an aftermarket carbon fiber muffler for my 2016 F3T about a year ago. I put it on, and drove about 1 mile. The thing had more power, but sounded like one of those little honda civics with the bumble bee can sticking out of the back. I immediately took it off and sold it. Well yesterday my cat delete bypass pipe came. It included the spring tool and a baffle insert. The baffle came in 2 configurations so I was going to try it with just the baffle in, but no end cap. As I inserted the baffle, it seemed not to fit far enough in the pipe to allow for the dougnut gasket to do it's job. So I removed it. The instructions actually suggest that you install the pipe without the baffle, as if you put it in and let it cycle a few times, it might be hard to take it out afterwards. So, I installed the pipe without the baffle and let it run for about 10-15 minutes. My thoughts at idle were that it sounded stock (I have the stock muffler). But I did notice a lot better throttle response when I hit the gas. So I took it out for a ride. No, it did not burn rubber, but I did not necessarily try. I am thinking the off the line tq. might be the same, or a little less. But the response above 3k rpms was a lot better. I drove it about 20 miles and seem happy so far. I thought it was a bit louder going down the road, but I later realized that I had the wrong helmet on, and may only be fooling myself. I will take it for a better test ride tomorrow. On a side note, one of the springs had not been on my pipe since the first pipe and muffler install over a year ago. With the tool supplied, I was able to install the 3rd spring with no trouble. And the pipe, baffle, and tool were $183 on ebay.

 

[G8tr]

Okay, got my Throttle Commander today, easy install, hid the controller away and installed the iPhone app to set modes.

OMG!!! The Sport 2 mode is almost dangerously fast, threw me back.

Low end torque problem solved!

You guys should get yourselves one of these...

 

[PMK]

Ok, I can now speak from first hand knowledge on the cat bypass. I picked up a cat delete and an aftermarket carbon fiber muffler for my 2016 F3T about a year ago. I put it on, and drove about 1 mile. The thing had more power, but sounded like one of those little honda civics with the bumble bee can sticking out of the back. I immediately took it off and sold it. Well yesterday my cat delete bypass pipe came. It included the spring tool and a baffle insert. The baffle came in 2 configurations so I was going to try it with just the baffle in, but no end cap. As I inserted the baffle, it seemed not to fit far enough in the pipe to allow for the dougnut gasket to do it's job. So I removed it. The instructions actually suggest that you install the pipe without the baffle, as if you put it in and let it cycle a few times, it might be hard to take it out afterwards. So, I installed the pipe without the baffle and let it run for about 10-15 minutes. My thoughts at idle were that it sounded stock (I have the stock muffler). But I did notice a lot better throttle response when I hit the gas. So I took it out for a ride. No, it did not burn rubber, but I did not necessarily try. I am thinking the off the line tq. might be the same, or a little less. But the response above 3k rpms was a lot better. I drove it about 20 miles and seem happy so far. I thought it was a bit louder going down the road, but I later realized that I had the wrong helmet on, and may only be fooling myself. I will take it for a better test ride tomorrow. On a side note, one of the springs had not been on my pipe since the first pipe and muffler install over a year ago. With the tool supplied, I was able to install the 3rd spring with no trouble. And the pipe, baffle, and tool were $183 on ebay.

Exactly, if you simply putt around and never truly twist the grip, the baffle makes sense to have that lower rpm drivability. When I did the swap years ago from having an oem exhaust to a bypassed exhaust, it was apparent how freely the rpm builds. But, if you ride in the low rpm ranges, you will never experience this.