Baldwin Ironworks Cat Delete vs Lamonster's - preferences/recommendations?

[Kingz]

The Baldwin cat delete is considerably cheaper than the Lamonster pipe that I installed on the RT. They look the same. Ready to do the F3 and wondered if people are satisfied with the Baldwin.

 

[RiderDuke]

I used Baldwin and have had no problems that I know of.

 

[troop]

I've had two Baldwin Ironworks cat deletes. I actually stopped by his shop in 2019 on my way to the Ozarks. He built me a fresh cat delete, installed it on my 2019 F3S and shipped my OEM cat back to my residence, all for the original selling price. I can't verify or prove, but I'm guessing that Baldwin builds his cat delete for Lamonster, as they are only about 20 miles away from each other.

 

[2dogs]

They both do the same thing. They reduce weight and increase sound. That's pretty much it. Your ECU self adjusts to compensate for the changeover and keeps your spyder stock. I did the cat delete and installed a 2Bro's muffler. After that, I installed stage 2 and that's when things really got wild. If you go stage 2 don't nail it right out of the shoot! Take it easy and gradually get used to it. Don't ask me how I know that.

 

[ApexSpyder]

They both do the same thing. They reduce weight and increase sound. That's pretty much it. Your ECU self adjusts to compensate for the changeover and keeps your spyder stock. I did the cat delete and installed a 2Bro's muffler. After that, I installed stage 2 and that's when things really got wild. If you go stage 2 don't nail it right out of the shoot! Take it easy and gradually get used to it. Don't ask me how I know that.

My guess is I should not do this while F3 is still under warranty. Am I correct that this modification would impact warranty?

 

[BajaRon]

They both do the same thing. They reduce weight and increase sound. That's pretty much it. Your ECU self adjusts to compensate for the changeover and keeps your spyder stock. I did the cat delete and installed a 2Bro's muffler. After that, I installed stage 2 and that's when things really got wild. If you go stage 2 don't nail it right out of the shoot! Take it easy and gradually get used to it. Don't ask me how I know that.

I'm not sure why people continue to repeat this information because it is not accurate. There is no spec sheet in the ECU that prevents the engine from producing more HP than it did at the factory. The ECU does compensate and adjust for, within its programmed ability to do so, things like ambient air temperature, air/fuel ratio, octane, and probably other parameters. For example, the ECU attempts to maintain a certain air/fuel ratio. If more air is available, the ECU compensates with more fuel. This has the ability to increase power output.

It can be argued that the potential improvement is not particularly significant. But even if this is true, it's got more to do with the limitations of the ECU to adjust to improved conditions than it does with any manufacturer's attempt to prevent additional power output.

 

[troop]

My guess is I should not do this while F3 is still under warranty. Am I correct that this modification would impact warranty?

In a word.. Maybe. The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act protects consumers from possible warranty claim rejections. The dealer/MFR has to prove that any consumer negligence was a cause of any warranty issues. If you install a cat delete/change exhaust, and say you burn a valve, the MFR may have a claim. If you install a cat delete and you get an electrical situation, the two are unrelated, so the warranty won't be affected. I have never heard of any motor issues arising due to installing a cat delete, even though some dealers may beat their chest about it.

 

[2dogs]

I'm not sure why people continue to repeat this information because it is not accurate. There is no spec sheet in the ECU that prevents the engine from producing more HP than it did at the factory. The ECU does compensate and adjust for, within its programmed ability to do so, things like ambient air temperature, air/fuel ratio, octane, and probably other parameters. For example, the ECU attempts to maintain a certain air/fuel ratio. If more air is available, the ECU compensates with more fuel. This has the ability to increase power output.

It can be argued that the potential improvement is not particularly significant. But even if this is true, it's got more to do with the limitations of the ECU to adjust to improved conditions than it does with any manufacturer's attempt to prevent additional power output.

Is it that our spyder's 1330 comes to us from BRP detuned? I understand there's no physical change to the engine itself, but when I changed the ECU something definitely changed the spyder's performance. It seems to me there was some sequestered power somewhere in there waiting to be released. If it isn't HP, as you mentioned, then what should it be called?

 

[Peter Aawen]

ALL Spyder engines are SIGNIFICANTLY de-tuned!!

Installing a Cat Delete removes the dirty great restriction in the exhaust, which definitely improves the gas flow out of the engine, but it doesn't change the restrictive settings of the ECU; so while improved gas flow will help the engine run better/more efficiently, it's still going to be running within those restrictive parameters imposed by the ECU, so it can only unleash a little of the potential, largely in the mid-range revs. Sure, it's an improvement, but as Ron mentioned, it's restricted to improve only "within its programmed ability to do so"... and that's not much - IIRC, the figures I saw reported a 'less than 2hp improvement' from just a Cat Delete - but it IS an improvement!

However, these same engines used in other platforms produce a lot more power, and with a suitable ECU Upgrade to expand its "programmed ability to do so", you can unleash a whole lot of that potential power output! Do you really need to ask me how I know this for a fact?!

 

[BajaRon]

Is it that our spyder's 1330 comes to us from BRP detuned? I understand there's no physical change to the engine itself, but when I changed the ECU something definitely changed the spyder's performance. It seems to me there was some sequestered power somewhere in there waiting to be released. If it isn't HP, as you mentioned, then what should it be called?

What changes is the ECU parameters are moved from an emphasis on emissions to an emphasis on efficiency and power. The factory has the engine running as lean as possible to meet government requirements, which is not good for much of anything else, including power production.

Optimizing the ECU for power production is certainly going to make a noticable difference. But this does not negate potential improvements that the OEM ECM is capable of. It's not like if you make a modification that gives you 5 more HP that the ECU is going to find a way to take 5 hp away to end up with a zero gain equation. That's all I'm saying.

 

[2dogs]

What changes is the ECU parameters are moved from an emphasis on emissions to an emphasis on efficiency and power. The factory has the engine running as lean as possible to meet government requirements, which is not good for much of anything else, including power production.

Optimizing the ECU for power production is certainly going to make a noticable difference. But this does not negate potential improvements that the OEM ECM is capable of. It's not like if you make a modification that gives you 5 more HP that the ECU is going to find away to take 5 hp away to end up with a zero gain equation. That's all I'm saying.

I guess what I'm alluding to here is referred to as Brake Horsepower and you are emphasizing Engine Horsepower. If it were possible to dyno test a Spyder with an OEM ECU and then a Stage2 ECU we should see an increase in Horsepower, ie; Brake Horsepower. Am I correct here?

 

[Cobranut]

I guess what I'm alluding to here is referred to as Brake Horsepower and you are emphasizing Engine Horsepower. If it were possible to dyno test a Spyder with an OEM ECU and then a Stage2 ECU we should see an increase in Horsepower, ie; Brake Horsepower. Am I correct here?

Brake horsepower simply refers to the method of determining power. It can be measured at the engine, transmission, hub or wheel.
Most dyno's use some form of brake, usually a water or eddy current brake, to absorb power and provide resistance to rotation. Torque is measured by a strain gauge on a lever from the dyno brake. Horsepower is calculated from torque and rpm using a specific formula.

As far as these engines being de-tuned, that simply means the operating parameters are less than optimum for power output.
Anything minor improvements to flow in or out of the engine will generally produce more power, as long as it doesn't exceed the ECU's limits to compensate and provide the proper air/fuel ratio.
An aftermarket tune can likely make a significant increase in power by optimizing timing and air/fuel ratio, as well as throttle opening on these DBW engines.

My DynoJet PV4 is on order, so I'll begin to find out how much improvement is possible soon.

 

[2dogs]

Brake horsepower simply refers to the method of determining power. It can be measured at the engine, transmission, hub or wheel.
Most dyno's use some form of brake, usually a water or eddy current brake, to absorb power and provide resistance to rotation. Torque is measured by a strain gauge on a lever from the dyno brake. Horsepower is calculated from torque and rpm using a specific formula.

As far as these engines being de-tuned, that simply means the operating parameters are less than optimum for power output.
Anything minor improvements to flow in or out of the engine will generally produce more power, as long as it doesn't exceed the ECU's limits to compensate and provide the proper air/fuel ratio.
An aftermarket tune can likely make a significant increase in power by optimizing timing and air/fuel ratio, as well as throttle opening on these DBW engines.

My DynoJet PV4 is on order, so I'll begin to find out how much improvement is possible soon.

Rotax built a lot of potential HP into their 1330 but CARB and others don't or won't allow all that suppressed HP to be unleashed. However Monster, Dynojet, and others have come to the rescue.

 

[AbNormy]

They both do the same thing. They reduce weight and increase sound. That's pretty much it. Your ECU self adjusts to compensate for the changeover and keeps your spyder stock. I did the cat delete and installed a 2Bro's muffler. After that, I installed stage 2 and that's when things really got wild. If you go stage 2 don't nail it right out of the shoot! Take it easy and gradually get used to it. Don't ask me how I know that.

My cat delete flange was cracked dk what brand it was when I bought the bike, but I bought Lamonts and put it on as well as a 2Bros, and had my chip flashed in was it Shreveport or Lake Charles cant recall the name of the outfit but it runs so much smoother now. And seems way quicker! Onliest problem I've noticed is the rivets are leaking on the 2Bros muffler and seems like I smell more exhaust driving in town. I know CO is supposed to be odorless but I wonder if the length of the 2Bros is not pushing exhaust back far enough. Have to run premium only, they said but also dont have to wait for the puter to boot up anymore. Tempted to put my stock muffler back on, not sure if the 2Bros helps or not, only that its noisier. 2Bros kept shining me on about warranty repair. Wonder if I can just put a new rivet in myself where they're leaking.

 

[2dogs]

"Wonder if I can just put a new rivet in myself where they're leaking."
Yes you can. But be careful and choose the right sized drill to cut off the head of the rivet. You may consider replacing all of them and repack the muffler. 2bros recommends you do that every so often. Remember, rivets come in different materials, both steel and aluminum. If there isn't a tight fit when you replace a rivet then an aluminum bodied rivet can vibrate and wobble loose sooner than a steel rivet. But a steel rivet can be trickier to drill out, particularly if it starts spinning. If you've never drilled them out before, practice installing and removing a rivet on another piece of metal first. Rivets are cheap, but screwups can get expensive. Good luck..........

 

[Cobranut]

"Wonder if I can just put a new rivet in myself where they're leaking."
Yes you can. But be careful and choose the right sized drill to cut off the head of the rivet. You may consider replacing all of them and repack the muffler. 2bros recommends you do that every so often. Remember, rivets come in different materials, both steel and aluminum. If there isn't a tight fit when you replace a rivet then an aluminum bodied rivet can vibrate and wobble loose sooner than a steel rivet. But a steel rivet can be trickier to drill out, particularly if it starts spinning. If you've never drilled them out before, practice installing and removing a rivet on another piece of metal first. Rivets are cheap, but screwups can get expensive. Good luck..........

2Dogs is right.

I find that when drilling out rivets, if one wants to spin, I tilt the drill just a few degrees and that will allow the bit to cut away the head.
Just be very careful not to tilt too much and let the bit slip and walk across the surface.

 

[BajaRon]

I guess what I'm alluding to here is referred to as Brake Horsepower and you are emphasizing Engine Horsepower. If it were possible to dyno test a Spyder with an OEM ECU and then a Stage2 ECU we should see an increase in Horsepower, ie; Brake Horsepower. Am I correct here?

I was going to explain this but I can't improve on what Cobranut said. There are several places where output can be measured. Brake HP is measured at the crankshaft and does not represent useable HP. Every system has parasitic loss. But if you increase HP at the crankshaft, it will increase HP at the rear wheel.

It is important to know where the measurement is taken to have any relative significance. Comparing apples to apples, so to speak. Most dyno's run off the rear wheel which is usually the best place to measure. Though the numbers are always much more impressive off the crankshaft. It is surprising how much is lost between what the engine puts out and what actually gets delivered to pavement.

There is unused potential in virtually every engine made. The more pollution minded the manufacturer, the greater potential is lost. I think this is especially true in a diesel engine where it is easy to get 30% power increase, 30% fuel mileage increase, and double the life expectancy of the engine all at the same time. And without 'Rolling Coal'.

 

[Cobranut]

I was going to explain this but I can't improve on what Cobranut said. There are several places where output can be measured. Brake HP is measured at the crankshaft and does not represent useable HP. Every system has parasitic loss. But if you increase HP at the crankshaft, it will increase HP at the rear wheel.

It is important to know where the measurement is taken to have any relative significance. Comparing apples to apples, so to speak. Most dyno's run off the rear wheel which is usually the best place to measure. Though the numbers are always much more impressive off the crankshaft. It is surprising how much is lost between what the engine puts out and what actually gets delivered to pavement.

There is unused potential in virtually every engine made. The more pollution minded the manufacturer, the greater potential is lost. I think this is especially true in a diesel engine where it is easy to get 30% power increase, 30% fuel mileage increase, and double the life expectancy of the engine all at the same time. And without 'Rolling Coal'.

Thanks Ron. I'm glad I explained that in a way that makes sense.

I do have to disagree about Diesel tuning being "easy"
Yes, there is a lot more headroom to "turn up" the output on a diesel, but if done improperly one can quickly cause severe engine damage.
A lot of early diesel tuners used to just increase boost and injector pulse width, with little regard for the duration of the fuel shot.
Gale Banks has some amazing pics of what happens when that is taken too far. It's like taking a cutting torch to your piston domes.
He's the master of diesel performance, and his Youtube channel is very educational and entertaining.