Gas Octane

[spyryder]

Yes, it's been discussed, and no, it doesn't have a stand alone knock sensor. But as we have no end user or dealer access to the actual tables in the ECU, we don't know for certain that there isn't a knock sensing system in the ignition circuitry similar to what Harley has been using since 2002. I find it hard to believe that for all the advanced electronics on the Spyder, there is no knock control system being used, unless the ignition timing is severely retarded from the get go. Look at the parameters- the Rotax is almost 11:1 compression, it has to operate from sea level to 10,000 ft elevation or more, from 1500 to 10,00 rpm, from 0 to 100% throttle positions, unloaded or heavily laden, stock exhaust or performance, and I don't recall hearing anyone complain about detonation. Sorry guys, but I don't believe that a fixed ignition map from the factory is that versatile. If ignition timing is really that retarded to cover all those bases, imagine the performance and fuel milage gains that are being compromised. I have a sneaking suspicion there's more to it than what you think you see(or don't see) on the surface....

This is from the manual:

The ECM is programmed with data (ignition mappings) that it uses to provide optimum ignition timing.

It receives signals from a variety of sensors that tell it what the engine is doing and what are the operating conditions. It compares all the data it receives with the ignition mappings and uses it to control ignition spark timing, duration and firing order to ensure optimum engine operation.

The crankshaft position sensor (CPS), the manifold absolute pressure sensor (MAPS) and the throttle position sensor (TPS) are the primary sensors used to control the ignition timing.

Also the AAPTS (Ambient air pressure and temperature sensor) works in conjunction with the MAPS. The AAPTS is used to compare MAPS readings. The ECM uses the comparative results to improve engine operation in high altitude areas.

 

[bone crusher]

As a side note, at higher altitudes, many states use lower octane, not higher octane....take Colorado, for example...they drop below 87 to 85 or 83...

 

[LDFIREWORKS]

RUN SUPER HIGHTEST DONT BE CHEEP....................:2thumbs:

 

[bone crusher]

RUN SUPER HIGHTEST DONT BE CHEEP....................:2thumbs:

Read my post above with facts about doing such (and links)...it is only a waste of money....being cheap has nothing to do with it...it's more like being foolish...nothing shows that running 93 octane when the vehicle requires 87 will do anything worthwhile....these are the facts...

 

[SpyderDog65]

The book says to use minimum of 81 octane. The tech at the dealer said use 93 octane and the spyder would run better. I tried and I think it ran worse for about a quarter of a tank and then it seems to have leveled out. Didn't start well and sputtered some. I'm probably going back to 81 as the book suggested.

What has been the experence or what is the advise of others? What octane are you using? :dontknow:

Juice

I use Mid-Grade 87 Octane and mine runs just fine if u use mid-grade u get a little of both 81 octane and a little of the 91 octane ive always used mid-grade never get sputtering or missing at all Michael


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[BajaRon]

87 octane and 11:1 compression aren't known for playing well together.

I agree. In the normal world our 10.8:1 would not work well with 87 octane. So it does leave a lot to the imagination.

I found this statment on Volvo engines. (Ok, so the Spyder isn't running a Volvo engine. Still, general engine characterists will be similar as long as the parameters are similar.)

"Any normally aspirated engine of up to about 10.8:1 compression ratio can handle 87 octane with knock sensors--as all modern vehicles do including all Volvos."

What's interesting to me is that the compression ratio mentioned here is exactly what our Spyders are running (if the Spec sheet is accurate). Wonder how BRP came to this particular C/R? The same engine in the Aprilia is running 11.8:1 compresson and delivers 139hp.

The Aprilia recommends premium grade fuel but we're talking apples and oranges here.

 

[Spydyr]

Where are you guys reading that BRP recommends "87 octane" and that it was designed to run on "87 octane". The factory service manual states a "Minimum 87 octane". It doesn't say it's designed to run on 87 octane. It doesn't say that 87 octtane is the best to run. I take that to mean that 87 octane is the lowest you should possibly try to get by with, not the best you can run. My oil dipstick has a minimum level. Does that mean It's a waste of money to fill it to the max mark.

 

[ataDude]

 

[bone crusher]

Where are you guys reading that BRP recommends "87 octane" and that it was designed to run on "87 octane". The factory service manual states a "Minimum 87 octane". It doesn't say it's designed to run on 87 octane. It doesn't say that 87 octtane is the best to run. I take that to mean that 87 octane is the lowest you should possibly try to get by with, not the best you can run. My oil dipstick has a minimum level. Does that mean It's a waste of money to fill it to the max mark.

Your analogy does nothing to help your statement, it just proves the other side....your oil dipstick is a level of minimum oil for engine function...if you run it on minimum, you are just as good as if you run it on the max line...just be careful it doesn't go below the minimum line...this is the same with octane...you only NEED 87 octane to run your vehicle...all this crud about higher octane gas and better performance has not been proven...read the links I posted earlier in this thread...there is truly no discussion regarding this topic...put in higher octane, waste your money...it does NOTHING to help your bike run better...

 

[bone crusher]

too funny...:banghead:

 

[jetskier]

With all said it's not possible to buy 87RON in the UK. Minimum is 95 but 98 is the norm and both 99 and 102 are available at pump at a slight premium and are sold as high performance cleaner burning fuels for sports cars and privateer racers. Like I said before higher RON might not give you better performance but they help reduce engine temps, friction and are cleaner filtered.

 

[bjt]

With all said it's not possible to buy 87RON in the UK. Minimum is 95 but 98 is the norm and both 99 and 102 are available at pump at a slight premium and are sold as high performance cleaner burning fuels for sports cars and privateer racers. Like I said before higher RON might not give you better performance but they help reduce engine temps, friction and are cleaner filtered.

Doesn't the UK calculate octane differently than the US? May be that 95 UK is comparable to 87 US. In Michigan, our premium gasoline is only 91 octane, midgrade is 89 and 87 is regular. Over 100, like 105 or so, is considered racing or airplane fuel and is not sold at the average gas station.

EDIT: Just looked it up and Europe uses the RON (research octane number) number only. The US and Canada uses the average of the RON and the MON (motor octane number), (R+M)/2.

 

[Spydyr]

Your analogy does nothing to help your statement, it just proves the other side....your oil dipstick is a level of minimum oil for engine function...if you run it on minimum, you are just as good as if you run it on the max line...just be careful it doesn't go below the minimum line...this is the same with octane...you only NEED 87 octane to run your vehicle...all this crud about higher octane gas and better performance has not been proven...read the links I posted earlier in this thread...there is truly no discussion regarding this topic...put in higher octane, waste your money...it does NOTHING to help your bike run better...

I wasn't making a statement I was asking a question! Am I wasting my money putting more oil in if the spyder is designed to run at the minimum level?
If "higher octane gas and better performance has not been proven", how can you say ".it does NOTHING to help your bike run better"?
No sides here. I've heard interesting comments both ways. Another question. Is the only difference between regular and premium the octane rating? I think I should start a new thread with that one.

 

[spyryder]

P. 567 of the service manual recommends "REGULAR UNLEADED". Do people set valves to different clearances from what's "recommended"? :dontknow:opcorn:......where's that dead horse thingy?

 

[spyryder]

Where are you guys reading that BRP recommends "87 octane" and that it was designed to run on "87 octane". The factory service manual states a "Minimum 87 octane". It doesn't say it's designed to run on 87 octane. It doesn't say that 87 octtane is the best to run. I take that to mean that 87 octane is the lowest you should possibly try to get by with, not the best you can run. My oil dipstick has a minimum level. Does that mean It's a waste of money to fill it to the max mark.

The service manual AND the operators manual clearly state "regular unleaded".:read:

 

[Spydyr]

P. 567 of the service manual recommends "REGULAR UNLEADED". Do people set valves to different clearances from what's "recommended"? :dontknow:opcorn:......where's that dead horse thingy?

My 2008 shop manual, BRP part#219 100 283 only has 479 pages but on page 473 it says "octane 87 or higher".

 

[bone crusher]

try reading this for some good info:

http://www.mastermuffler.net/10th-biggest-automotive-myths.html

This is from the ftc...

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut12.shtm


Higher octane gas ain't worth it!!!!!

I'm posting for a third time for those who don't want to read! This is not opinion...there is NOTHING that states that a vehicle requiring 87 octane works better with higher octane...period...

 

[spyryder]

My 2008 shop manual, BRP part#219 100 283 only has 479 pages but on page 473 it says "octane 87 or higher".

Well then look in your operators manual under specifications.....look at fuel type, should be on P. 104:f_spider:

 

[spyryder]

My 2008 shop manual, BRP part#219 100 283 only has 479 pages but on page 473 it says "octane 87 or higher".

Yikes!!! P.473 on mine shows how to adjust front suspension preload. :f_spider:

 

[northramp]

Can you can put Avgas 100 LL (low Lead) in it? Back in the day lead was used as an anti knock for your valves. would that help, harm or do nothing to the Rotax?