juice box is the culprit, according to BRP...

[Batmobile]

Same exact with me. I even did the battery reset thing, but same issues.
Wife has the SE5 Spyder and she says NO WAY for this update, lol.
I only did it on mine as I kept getting the DPS scroll and check engine light, even after adding the foam trick to the relay box. The dealership said this would fix it and guess what....NOT. Still have that issue, and now new ones, sheez!

May need a new DPS. Mine is at the dealer having one installed because of the same problem.

 

[Tom in NM]

a partial role call

How's it look if we highlight the other side of the story?:dontknow:

I am not sure which side you are talking about.

We have heard from people with problems after the update.
People who had problems that went away.
People who are still waiting to get the update.
People who had the update and are not riding now, waiting for a new update.
People who want to remove the update and have the Spyder like it was before.
People who are totally stock and people with all varieties of mods.
People who have SM5s and those with SE5s.
People who now surge ( in certain gears, RPMs, temps & speeds ) after the update and those who don't.
People who have problems only when it is hot and humid.
People who didn't have a problem after the update, but after a while, now do.
People who have removed the Evap-canister and are now fine, and those who are not.
People who had problems after the update, but they were mechanical, and are now fixed - and some where it did not totally fix it.
And, sadly, people who may now be having problems with their wiffle valve.
Oh, and not to forget the people who have noticed no change or those who think their Spyder now runs and handles better.​

There are also combinations of the above.

We have heard some very interesting speculation and possible solutions.
We have heard some questionable advice.
We have heard that some practices we have taken for granted and passed on ( like the battery disconnect ) have no effect, but for some, work sometimes.

Now we have heard the 1st official statement from BRP.
They are working on it.
They are taking it seriously.

All the talk and "heat" is moving us towards a solution. If BRP was doing nothing, that would be a problem for all of us Spyder owners. I just don't think it is helpful to take a baseball bat and beat the surgeon who is doing your open heart surgery, no matter how gratifying you find it.

Patience and vigilance will see all of us through this.

Tom

 

[bone crusher]

I am not sure which side you are talking about.

We have heard from people with problems after the update.
People who had problems that went away.
People who are still waiting to get the update.
People who had the update and are not riding now, waiting for a new update.
People who want to remove the update and have the Spyder like it was before.
People who are totally stock and people with all varieties of mods.
People who have SM5s and those with SE5s.
People who now surge ( in certain gears, RPMs, temps & speeds ) after the update and those who don't.
People who have problems only when it is hot and humid.
People who didn't have a problem after the update, but after a while, now do.
People who have removed the Evap-canister and are now fine, and those who are not.
People who had problems after the update, but they were mechanical, and are now fixed - and some where it did not totally fix it.
And, sadly, people who may now be having problems with their wiffle valve.
Oh, and not to forget the people who have noticed no change or those who think their Spyder now runs and handles better.​

There are also combinations of the above.

We have heard some very interesting speculation and possible solutions.
We have heard some questionable advice.
We have heard that some practices we have taken for granted and passed on ( like the battery disconnect ) have no effect, but for some, work sometimes.

Now we have heard the 1st official statement from BRP.
They are working on it.
They are taking it seriously.

All the talk and "heat" is moving us towards a solution. If BRP was doing nothing, that would be a problem for all of us Spyder owners. I just don't think it is helpful to take a baseball bat and beat the surgeon who is doing your open heart surgery, no matter how gratifying you find it.

Patience and vigilance will see all of us through this.

Tom

:agree:

 

[pitmon]

My spyder is completely stock except for some mods that in no way affect engine performance. I have stock filters, exhaust, etc. I do not have a JB installed as of yet. It ran perfect before the update and now I have the surges in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gears. It seems to level out and run smoother over 60 mph. I have noticed that it runs better in the morning when it is cooler, however, as the day heats up here in Florida and the humidity gets bad it runs terrible. I have noticed my fuel mileage is down a bit too. I talked to the dealer and he told me that I was not the only one that had been back complaining and that they had replaced the DPS on several models, however, mine is not showing any error messages or anything other than the surging. He suggested reseting the computer, which I did, and it changed nothing. I sure hope they get a fix soon. We are going to Tennessee in October and I hope it is fixed by that time. Don't want to "sputter" through Deals Gap!

 

[Hoog]

This one-

"early indications are that these issues are related to some combination of "juice boxes" (JB's) or similar performance modification electronics, aftermarket air filters and/or aftermarket exhausts"

-which, BTW, is now BRP's official stance for the moment......

That is a piece of BRP's official stance, taken out of context giving a false impression of the statement as a whole.

The testing BRP did before releasing the update had to have centered around stock bikes. They have a database of knowledge based on the one solid scenario they could test...stock bikes. They would not have released the update without a solid, consistent repeatable fix for the "as produced" units. There is no way they could possibly have tested the hundreds of combinations of aftermarket parts installed on our Spyders.

So....first impression would logically be that something done after the sale would be the first place to look for a cause.

BRP is collecting all the information they can from dealers and owners the call the customer service line (like me). I promise you they are compiling this additional data, and it will indicate that the problem is not isolated to modified bikes. The lady I talked to as much as admitted this.

BRP will figure it out, and they will fix this.

 

[aubierules]

I took my straw out of my juice box stuck it in my wiffle valve and everthing is fixed wait a minute I don't have a juice box.
And my Hindle is made for BRP :helpsmilie::gaah:

:roflblack:

 

[Firefly]

But one question still goes unanswered------ Why did BRP feel they needed to make this change?

 

[BajaRon]

My spyder is completely stock except for some mods that in no way affect engine performance. I have stock filters, exhaust, etc. I do not have a JB installed as of yet. It ran perfect before the update and now I have the surges in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gears. It seems to level out and run smoother over 60 mph. I have noticed that it runs better in the morning when it is cooler, however, as the day heats up here in Florida and the humidity gets bad it runs terrible. I have noticed my fuel mileage is down a bit too. I talked to the dealer and he told me that I was not the only one that had been back complaining and that they had replaced the DPS on several models, however, mine is not showing any error messages or anything other than the surging. He suggested reseting the computer, which I did, and it changed nothing. I sure hope they get a fix soon. We are going to Tennessee in October and I hope it is fixed by that time. Don't want to "sputter" through Deals Gap!

Clamp off the Purge Valve hose and you will probably solve the issue. If not you will at least know that the problem lies elsewhere. It's a simple and quick process that anyone can do.

If it is the purge valve issue you're running lean and that is not good for the motor or for riding pleasure.

 

[Lamonster]

:agree:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huC0pXtPcug"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]

 

[BajaRon]

But one question still goes unanswered------ Why did BRP feel they needed to make this change?

I think it is a pretty good bet that the Purge Valve re-program was designed to address the gas fume smell issue that some have complained about.

It may be that people who generally ride their Spyder at low RPM's and never ride them hard may be contributing to the evap canister/gas fume issue.

The Rotax engine in the Spyder is a high performance, high RPM design. It is designed to ride hard at high RPM. BRP certainly would have tested and designed the evap canister/purge valve cycle around these parameters. They may not have taken into account that some people would not ride the Spyder as designed.

The purge valve opens and closes electronically based on the computer program. It sucks out gas fumes from venting the fuel tank and runs them through the engine combustion cycle. This is so you don't smell them and you don't vent them directly into the air (pollution).

Riding the Spyder real easy may not allow enough opportunity for the Purge Valve to evacuate all the fumes from the evap canister that build up from venting the fuel tank.

Over time this can give you liquid fuel in the evap canister from the fumes condensing and this is not good. This condition will certainly get you a good dose of gas fumes.

I very rarely get a faint gas smell from my Spyder. But I ride it pretty hard and get it over 7000 RPM on a regular basis.

A another possibility for the Purge Valve re-programming is also not beyond reason. I think BRP wanted to eliminate any possibility that the Evap Canister is responsible for any of the fires reported.

This would account for the apparent haste and urgency placed on the update by BRP. Gas fumes are not a great selling point but that could have been addressed with a lot more testing and a lot less haste and urgency.

It may be BRP feels any problems created by the update will be easier to deal with than your Spyder burning to the ground.

I would say BRP is not yet sure what is causing the few fires that we all keep talking about. But I am sure BRP is very concerened about it.

So, it makes sense that BRP would re-program the Purge Valve Cycle to expand or extend the open time? From BRP's standpoint it kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

You eliminate gas fumes and you eliminate (or at least greatly reduce) the possibility of the evap canister contributing to any fire. Even though BRP probably isn't sure if the evap canister has anything to do with the fires it's still a win/win for them and us.

EXCEPT that this expanded purge valve programming is causing problems in about 40% of the updated Spyders to run badly, (according to Lamont's unscientific poll numbers).

This leads me to believe that BRP rushed this update out before adequate testing. Why would they be in such a hurry?

As far as I'm concerned 2+2 add up to 4 in this case.

My feeling is get the update done. Especially if you're getting a smell of gas fumes on a regular basis.

 

[Firefly]

I think it is a pretty good bet that the Purge Valve re-program was designed to address the gas fume smell issue that some have complained about.

It may be that people who generally ride their Spyder at low RPM's and never ride them hard may be contributing to the evap canister/gas fume issue.

The Rotax engine in the Spyder is a high performance, high RPM design. It is designed to ride hard at high RPM. BRP certainly would have tested and designed the evap canister/purge valve cycle around these parameters. They may not have taken into account that some people would not ride the Spyder as designed.

The purge valve opens and closes electronically based on the computer program. It sucks out gas fumes from venting the fuel tank and runs them through the engine combustion cycle. This is so you don't smell them and you don't vent them directly into the air (pollution).

Riding the Spyder real easy may not allow enough opportunity for the Purge Valve to evacuate all the fumes from the evap canister that build up from venting the fuel tank.

Over time this can give you liquid fuel in the evap canister from the fumes condensing and this is not good. This condition will certainly get you a good dose of gas fumes.

I very rarely get a faint gas smell from my Spyder. But I ride it pretty hard and get it over 7000 RPM on a regular basis.

A another possibility for the Purge Valve re-programming is also not beyond reason. I think BRP wanted to eliminate any possibility that the Evap Canister is responsible for any of the fires reported.

This would account for the apparent haste and urgency placed on the update by BRP. Gas fumes are not a great selling point but that could have been addressed with a lot more testing and a lot less haste and urgency.

It may be BRP feels any problems created by the update will be easier to deal with than your Spyder burning to the ground.

I would say BRP is not yet sure what is causing the few fires that we all keep talking about. But I am sure BRP is very concerened about it.

So, it makes sense that BRP would re-program the Purge Valve Cycle to expand or extend the open time? From BRP's standpoint it kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

You eliminate gas fumes and you eliminate (or at least greatly reduce) the possibility of the evap canister contributing to any fire. Even though BRP probably isn't sure if the evap canister has anything to do with the fires it's still a win/win for them and us.

EXCEPT that this expanded purge valve programming is causing problems in about 40% of the updated Spyders to run badly, (according to Lamont's unscientific poll numbers).

This leads me to believe that BRP rushed this update out before adequate testing. Why would they be in such a hurry?

As far as I'm concerned 2+2 add up to 4 in this case.

My feeling is get the update done. Especially if you're getting a smell of gas fumes on a regular basis.

Sounds about right on all points. Maybe it was rushed so avoid more fires --- I've suspected that #$%^&* evap can from the first fire--- due to the fuel smell from it.

I also noticed on 'Someguys' Spyder this weekend that while his gas line was against the engine head--- they had wrapped it with split-cable stuff. The airbox(which I don't have) seems to really push those hoses against the engine.

Mine didn't have the wrap on the fuel line - so they obviously realized a problem and corrected it on newer models.

 

[BajaRon]

Sounds about right on all points. Maybe it was rushed so avoid more fires --- I've suspected that #$%^&* evap can from the first fire--- due to the fuel smell from it.

I also noticed on 'Someguys' Spyder this weekend that while his gas line was against the engine head--- they had wrapped it with split-cable stuff. The airbox(which I don't have) seems to really push those hoses against the engine.

Mine didn't have the wrap on the fuel line - so they obviously realized a problem and corrected it on newer models.

Though we beat them to death here, I think real issues with the Spyder are realitively few. BRP seems to be sniping them off one at a time. Except for this latest update that seems to be more of a shotgun approach.

This latest BIG issue (Purge Valve) is probably the easiest fix of all time. Sure, we shouldn't have to be cleaning up after BRP's mess but this is life in the real world. Stuff happens.

Those that can deal with it go on and enjoy and life is good.

 

[3wheeldemon]

I...

The Rotax engine in the Spyder is a high performance, high RPM design. It is designed to ride hard at high RPM. BRP certainly would have tested and designed the evap canister/purge valve cycle around these parameters. They may not have taken into account that some people would not ride the Spyder as designed.

...

Baja, Fire: Just for my education (and maybe other's) at what RPMs you guys shift up?

3WD

 

[Tom in NM]

another reason

Ron, that sounds reasonable. Another reason for doing the purge valve adjustment that we are less sensitive to, but MAY have a larger impact on BRP is that IF there is an issue that is pollution related, there MAY be large fines involved. The Spyder is an international product and is regulated by some countries that have a much more aggressive and punitive stance on pollution than we have here in the US.

Tom

 

[Just Doo Me]

Wondering what the possible down fall is to pinching the purge valve? worse mileage,rich running:dontknow: I keep hearing it is just a temporary fix but is there other side effects to it?

 

[BajaRon]

Baja, Fire: Just for my education (and maybe other's) at what RPMs you guys shift up?

3WD

Not sure I ever fought fire in Baja. The border is very non-descript (or was before they put up the fence) and it was hard to tell sometimes. It would be illegal if I had. But they say "what you don't know can't hurt you!" Boy is that ever a saying that is off base!

Up and down shifting occurs at different RPM's depending on what you're doing. I never look to see, I just do it by feel depending on how I am riding.

The harder you ride the higher the RPM will be when you shift. I do glance sometimes when I think I'm getting near redline.

I would say I stay above 4,000 ~ 4,500 RPM for most Up-Shifts. Not sure where that would put my up-shift point from the lower gear.

Sometimes when I'm just putting around I may let it drop as low as 3,500 RPM. But I would probably downshift from there to accellerate.

 

[Firefly]

Baja, Fire: Just for my education (and maybe other's) at what RPMs you guys shift up?

3WD

If I'm just putting around - probably 4,000-5,000 rpms is a decent shift point--- when I'm riding hard (which is most the time) - I take it 7,000+ before shifting. I rarely look at what it is--- but the times I have paid attention I'm often close to redline.

You can hit 60mph + without leaving 1st gear. I don't even think of hitting 5th gear until 65mph---- and that is really on the low end. I've heard of many hitting 5th gear at like 45-55 mph and that really lowers the RPMs to the point this engine isn't very happy---- it likes 5,000+ RPMs.

Ride it like you stole------

 

[3wheeldemon]

Thank you BajaRon, Firefly

Thank you bros, I seem to be in between the two of you so I guess I am OK.

PS: 60MPH in first gear:yikes:


3WD

 

[BeRight]

As a safety measure I try to always at least be in the power RPM band in any gear. Never know when you might have to do a quick exit.

For my Spyder this seems to be 4500-5000 RPM range. Once you get used to the sound and feel one really doesn't have to look at the gauges.

 

[bjt]

Sounds like BRP should have used a "smart" evap canister, one that had a sensor in it to tell the computer when the gas vapors were sufficient for purging. :dontknow: