ar-15

[LeftCoast]

Ya' mean they can see my VCR?!?!?!? Oh No!!! The sky is falling!!!



Joe T.

Ironically a VCR may be the only thing they can’t see you on nowadays.

 

[Bob Denman]

Excellent post! Thank you.

The Second Amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."​

It is really hard for me to understand how this allows semi and auto weapons of today. Our forefathers had muskets, muzzle loading pistols and rifles, and cannon when they wrote this. Do we really think this amendment allows semi-auto rifles If so, why not bazookas, flame throwers, grenades, 50 caliber machine guns, and suitcase nuclear weapons? Where does the line stand? Please help.

Regards,
Joe T.
​

Hi Joe!
Based upon your logic: the internet, television, radio, teletypes, microwave transmissions, and even ball-point pens should never have been allowed to develop. :dontknow:

 

[PrairieSpyder]

Virtually everyone agrees the NRA is a significant problem. They buy Congresspeople to explicitly prevent anti-gun legislation. They value your right to own guns over the lives of your children. They represent but a small fraction of gun owners. They are evil.

Millions of Americans do NOT agree. Maybe you should say "virtually everyone I know."

The NRA donations to campaigns is a drop in the bucket compared to union and Planned Parenthood contributions. The NRA's clout comes from the huge membership it represents, and they vote!

 

[Blue Star]

Virtually everyone agrees the NRA is a significant problem. They buy Congresspeople to explicitly prevent anti-gun legislation. They value your right to own guns over the lives of your children. They represent but a small fraction of gun owners. They are evil.

First off, I do not agree that the NRA is the problem, so your wrong when you say "virtually everyone" agrees. How can you say they are the problem, and value my right to own guns over the lives of my children? As a NRA member I do not value my gun ownership over anyone's life.

You state that the NRA buy's congress people to prevent anti-gun legislation, so there has to be some organization that is buying congress people to push the gun legislation. Honestly I don't know who they are, but I'm sure someone will inform me.

You feel the NRA is evil because they value our rights to own a gun, but some nut case who kills others randomly is not evil? I think you have your priorities wrong.

I have to ask you since you are one of those that believe the NRA is the problem. Why is it that everyone is saying it is the NRA's fault for this shooting, but the FBI has already been proven to have not done their job that they are paid to do. Is it a case of they thought all their information was wrong, or they wanted this to happen to push the gun ban agenda?

 

[PrairieSpyder]

The Constitution does not recognize the speed or technology of communication. What is your point?

Nor does it recognize technological advances in firearms. What's you point?

 

[RinconRyder]

Thank you for a brief moment of lucidity.
If you were actually trying to be a member of this community: you would know Al...
He and I disagree on tons of things... but he's still a friend! :thumbup:

The only thing we will likely have in common is Spyder ownership. If that constitutes friendship then so be it. If not.....oh well.

 

[PrairieSpyder]

CBS interviewed a teacher (I forgot his location but believe it was in rural CO) who stuffs a Glock 9mm in his boot (with District permission). I just wonder if he is prepared to challenge an AR-15 with his little tiny Glock.

Depends on the situation. In a direct shootout like on Gunsmoke, it would depend on who's faster and has better aim.

But in a school or home invasion against a single bad guy, the 9mm user would be in cover until he can get a good shot. Like when the rifle user turns around or moves. Any gun is better than no gun.

Street gunfights, as depicted on Hollywood Westerns, did not happen very often. Most killings in the Old West were ambushes of one sort or the other. But if a shooter is equipped with a semi-auto and isn't boldly walking down the hallways of the building he has a good advantage should the handgun holder make himself known. Given the choice, which gun would you prefer in a shootout? No need to answer.

As far as your "any gun" statement goes, you have got it all wrong. Virtually every police force agrees they do not want civilians running around a shooting site with guns. You likely would be mistaken by the cops or another civilian for the bad guy and suffer the consequences. Or you might shoot an innocent person you thought was the bad guy. Those scenes are highly chaotic and happen almost instantly.

And, everybody seems to zero in on school shootings but that isn't the only target here. How do all the arguments work when the site is a general gathering of people as in Las Vegas?

No, the only true solution to mass shootings is to ban the weapons used. That leaves plenty of types for hunting, target shooting and self defense.

Now you've changed the scenario from your original comment.

You're the one who posited a direct gunfight with people using the two guns in question. I only mentioned street shoot-outs to indicate the absurdity of saying a defender with a 9mm can't go against bad guy with an AR-15. I have no interest in discussing old west history.

As far as what the police want . . I don't care what they want. I will take responsibility for defending myself, in the absence of a police presence - which would be the most critical time. As soon as a policeman shows up, my weapon is down and my hands would be up.

Of course, I totally disagree with the banning of weapons used in mass shootings so I needn't address that.

 

[RinconRyder]

The 2nd amendment allowed for the current then, the most advanced weapons of the day. Nothing has changed today, The 2nd Amendment makes no allowances for advanced vs otherwise. You are reading into it what you would like it to say.

except after 1986 no more machine guns could be sold to an individual. Wrong again. One of my sons, a former active duty Marine and range supervisor, owns an MP-40 and takes it out every once in awhile when he saves up enough money to buy a ten-second burst.


We took prayer out of schools. Separation of church and state is one, if not the most important, facets of our nation. Although organized religion still causes many problems none have become as terrible as those of religious nations.

Forbid teachers from disciplining the students,

Schools are forbidden from using physical violence to discipline students but they do, in fact, discipline them - at least in my district.

How are you suppose to teach respect if you can't discipline?

Respect is earned, not beaten into someone.

I think all this is where the problems with our society started and now we seeing the fruits of the experiment. IT DIDN'T WORK. Now what are we going to do about it? It's not the guns, or the types of guns. If there are no more guns the murderers will just use something else. The Aurora movie theater would have been far deadlier had he used bottles of gasoline. Should we ban gasoline just in case?

I can just imagine someone trying to haul a suitcase of Molotov Cocktails into a movie theater. You watch way too much TV.

Your statements tell me the source of your information. You should stop watching Fox News for opinion masquerading as news.

..

 

[PrairieSpyder]

. . .

One thing, and I am a gun owner and support the 2nd amendment but not to the point that others do in terms of what I feel I need to own (nor do I have the experience that many of you do both with the knowledge and use of firearms), but I have been struggling with the idea that there should be no limit to what the 2nd amendment guarantees as far as gun ownership.

I've been hearing a lot of folks say "I support the 2nd Amendment, but . . ." That's when I go on alert for a proposed limit to our rights. That's like saying "I support the 1st Amendment, but not when people are saying . . . " And that is happening, too, on college campuses around the country.

LeftCoast, I can't wait to hear you've gotten a Spyder and will post some pics of it.

 

[Joe T.]

Hi Joe!
Based upon your logic: the internet, television, radio, teletypes, microwave transmissions, and even ball-point pens should never have been allowed to develop. :dontknow:

Bob, shame on you! That ain't my logic, it's your convoluted logic!



Please try to keep this discussion on track. We don't need the useless diversions some are so well know for.


Regards,
Joe T.

 

[Joe T.]

It is time for an honest, realistic discussion of the actual meaning, in the context of our Founding Fathers, what the 2nd Amendment means in today's world. Also, that discussion should include Social Media and Video Games/Entertainment's role in the situation we find ourselves in today.

Regards,
Joe T.

 

[RinconRyder]

Millions of Americans do NOT agree. Maybe you should say "virtually everyone I know."

According to two independent recent polls by nationally recognized polling organizations the number of Americans who believe in "gun control" (not further defined) exceeds 60% and is growing significantly.

The NRA donations to campaigns is a drop in the bucket compared to union and Planned Parenthood contributions. The NRA's clout comes from the huge membership it represents, and they vote!

Planned Parenthood contributed (2018) the following: House $65,000 Senate $33,000.

The NRA contributed: Contributions to candidates: $834,165
Contributions to Leadership PACs: $28,550
Contributions to parties: $218,435
Contributions to 527 committees: $2,500
Contributions to outside spending groups: $500

The NRA's clout comes from the support of gun makers (dollars are in the tens of millions). The NRA is in the pocket of gun manufacturers and Congress is in the pocket of the NRA. You can google countless confirmations of this.

The NRA claims about 5 million members. That is about 1.5% of the US population and about 7% of all gun owners.

You have an astounding lack of credibility.

 

[Trickie Dick]

Glad to see that you're back with nothing useful to add... :roflblack:

Don't like people who disagree with your position huh bob. hyea:

BTW, I'm not anti gun, just anti military style weapons that have no redeeming value beyond killing people. I am also anti people who refuse to listen to arguments under the guise of "well cars kill people, , knives kill people, drugs kill people are we supposed to bans those". Yada yada yada, What crap.
Something needs to be done. What been done up to now is obviously not working. When you bury your head in the sand behind the 2nd amendment you become part of the problem.

 

[PrairieSpyder]

"Over the last 20 years, the NRA has spent a total of $200 million on political activities...So let's compare that number to the amount of money unions have donated...Organized labor spent $1.7 billion with a "b" on politics and lobbying during 2016 alone!" http://www.wibc.com/blogs/chicks-right/union-campaign-donations-dwarf-nra

" . . .Planned Parenthood, the nation’s largest abortion seller and recipient of half a billion dollars in taxpayer funding every year, spent $38 million on the 2016 election alone." http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/06/planned-parenthood-far-outspends-the-nra-in-buying-influence/

That's $38 million in one election year compared to $200 million over 20 years for the NRA.

 

[johnsimion]

"Over the last 20 years, the NRA has spent a total of $200 million on political activities...So let's compare that number to the amount of money unions have donated...Organized labor spent $1.7 billion with a "b" on politics and lobbying during 2016 alone!" http://www.wibc.com/blogs/chicks-right/union-campaign-donations-dwarf-nra

" . . .Planned Parenthood, the nation’s largest abortion seller and recipient of half a billion dollars in taxpayer funding every year, spent $38 million on the 2016 election alone." http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/06/planned-parenthood-far-outspends-the-nra-in-buying-influence/

That's $38 million in one election year compared to $200 million over 20 years for the NRA.

Do you have an actual source for this information? The links you provided go to a blog that quotes "The Federalist" co-founder Sean Davis for the information you're repeating. If the source came from Planned Parenthood itself or some political campaign records, fine, but it's not cited that way. How the heck would Sean Davis know this information?

The amounts previously quoted ($102K/$33K) come from https://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.php?cmte=C00314617, which also has no source attached to it and is equally suspect IMHO.

Then there is the "Daily Signal" blog, that says the amount is $34M (which is $4M less that you cited) but again, are blogs serious evidence? http://dailysignal.com/2016/11/03/planned-parenthood-arms-spend-over-38-million-to-elect-democrats/

Politifact says that Planned Parenthood spent about $6.5M in the 2014 elections based on campaign finance reports ... that sounds better than just blogs but who knows if it's true, either ... plus it's 2014 rather than 2018 data. See http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...fiorina-says-planned-parenthood-gives-millio/

I didn't even bother to look up the NRA's information. Why bother? Everything is lies and manipulation to try to influence people. Nothing is trustworthy.

 

[RinconRyder]

"Over the last 20 years, the NRA has spent a total of $200 million on political activities...So let's compare that number to the amount of money unions have donated...Organized labor spent $1.7 billion with a "b" on politics and lobbying during 2016 alone!" http://www.wibc.com/blogs/chicks-right/union-campaign-donations-dwarf-nra

What possible connection do "union" contributions have with that of the NRA? There are hundreds of unions versus only one NRA. It is quite logical that their relative contributions would be unequal. And the big difference, of course, is that union money is largely from its members while the NRA receives it majority from gun manufacturers. The NRA used to be a worthwhile organization but is now nothing but a tool for the gun makers.

" . . .Planned Parenthood, the nation’s largest abortion seller and recipient of half a billion dollars in taxpayer funding every year, spent $38 million on the 2016 election alone." http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/06/planned-parenthood-far-outspends-the-nra-in-buying-influence/

You are obviously referring to PP's abortion services but that is only a fraction of the services it provides - mostly to women who cannot afford those services on their own - and that's where their income comes from. If you have a beef with those services you are addressing the wrong party.

That's $38 million in one election year compared to $200 million over 20 years for the NRA.

You are talking about money intended to drive specific legislation versus money used for public services. Two different animals.

 

[LeftCoast]

Only 1.5% of Americans belong to the NRA. I still maintain the moms and students, on both sides, will drive this debate.

 

[Bob Denman]

Only 1.5% of Americans belong to the NRA. I still maintain the moms and students, on both sides, will drive this debate.

While :agree:: I very much prefer a discussion based upon fact, and not just emotion.

After all... "If you listen to fools":

 

[MR. H1956]

Learn

Go out and learn what gun control really means. Look at Australia and read what their gun control done. They took the guns away from the honest people and their crime rate went up a lot. So when you here all these rich stars and so called government workers we elected talk about taking guns away from people. Lets take their guns away from their security guards and give them a baton to defend them with and see how that goes.

 

[Bob Denman]

I have seen some suggestions that DO bear closer scrutiny:
Expanded Background checks
"Red Flag" Laws
The "hardening" of Schools
Getting rid of Bump-stocks...

I'm not necessarily opposed to looking at raising the age limit to 21: but I really don't see where it would have much (if any) effect.

Please keep in mind that NONE of this will solve the problem: you STILL need to address the changing social values of our Society.
The Evil within us will still find a way to cause carnage... :gaah: