Mobil 1 racing 4T oil in the Spyder!!!!

[NancysToy]

Very good point.

But I have another. Just because someone decided on an oil does not mean it is the one they should be using. I come to this forum to learn. My question is still just as valid regardless of who chooses to use what.

Maybe I need to re-word it. ***Clears throat*** If a bottle of oil matching our personal preferred grade has the "Approved" specified code, but then also has one not on the preferred list (Like the SM in this case) do we stay away from this oil or what?

And because body language and tone is hard to see in a white background and black letters of text. I am simply trying to learn, not challenge. We always read up on forums like this and find the most knowledgeable of a particular product (Like the Spyders in this case) to be there and not in a store selling us an oil.

We are more than happy to get rid of our current oil supply (Three changes worth) and go buy the correct one.

That, I'm afraid, is still strictly up to you. To me, the main reason not to use an otherwise acceptable SM rated oil would be to prevent voiding the warranty, in case of oil-related damage. BRP is unlikely to pay to repair a clutch...or even a transmission bearing, if you use a specifically prohibited oil. Until they issue an alternate oil recommendation, we are stuck with their rules.

From a standpoint of continuing to use an oil which is now labeled SM, I would be comfortable experimenting close to home, being prepared to dump the oil and start over if the clutch slipped in the least. That is my point of view as a mechanic...but my point of view as a cheap Dutchman says I payed for the extended warranty, and I wouldn't want to throw that money away. Take a deep breath, flip the coin, then proceed as directed.

[clueless]

That, I'm afraid, is still strictly up to you. To me, the main reason not to use an otherwise acceptable SM rated oil would be to prevent voiding the warranty, in case of oil-related damage. BRP is unlikely to pay to repair a clutch...or even a transmission bearing, if you use a specifically prohibited oil. Until they issue an alternate oil recommendation, we are stuck with their rules.

this is exactly where I am coming from ... I am using a full synth 5W40 oil that does not have the SM rating. enough said .. others can do what they want but I have the extended warranty and dont want to risk it. keeping receipt for the oil I bought thru dealer Motul 300V 4t.

for the $$ I put into the Spyder and the ext warranty just KISS ... meet their recommended oil and be done. cost me like $1 more per qt... not a big deal.

[IWN2RYD]

**cries a little**

This does nothing to answer the question of the labeling meeting the requirements and one of those "Not wanted" ratings from BRP is also present.

I looked at Amsoil and it looked like this same dilemma is there as well. They qualify for numerous ratings.

Of course I know I can make my own choice, and of course the wrong oil can void the warranty. That is WHY I am trying to clarify to begin with.

I could also just run the factory oil that also does not meet their very own rating requirements (If old info is still valid). Is BRP going to run Oil Test samples on every bike to determine what oil is being used in order to deny warranty repair or not? Granted I do understand a few of the oils are easy to tell. But not all.

Come folks. I am trying to learn factual info and not personal options. I remember very similar type conversations when synthetic first started rolling out.

I mean this with the up most respect, we may not yet be able to answer this question on the forums and may require direct communication with the oil companies and BRP for a final answer we can all hang our hats on.

For now I will just run whatever BRP sells until we know for sure. I highly doubt that will take long for the factual answer to come to light, and it most certainly is the safe call to make running BRP's stuff for a few oil changes till then...

To this day I have not seen a motorcycle synthetic oil meet one rating. They all seem to meet multiple ratings. So if one of those ratings is not one to use, do we skip over that oil all together even though it does meet another rating that is allowed?

[Dudley]

IWN2RYD, I can understand your concern for oil. I don't know if you can get the answer you want on this forum. I, for one, will not tell someone what oil to use. I decided on Royal Purple after reading numerous on-line sites on different oils, etc. It seems to me that when any oil company posts results of tests, their oil will meet or be superior to others contested. I call that marketing. Not to say that the other oils are not good. I called the RP tech and talked for quite a while and he answered all my questions. The one thing that swung my trust was his stating that the wear reducing additives in the oil DID NOT would NOT damage a wet clutch. He told me the only difference between the RP automotive and the RP motorcycle oils was that the MC oil was formulated for air cooled engines. I use the 10W40 weight because where I live the coldest it will ever be when I start the Spyder will be in the 40s. Again, I used this oil in the 2008 SE5 for over 35,000 miles with no issues and I am now using it in the 2010 RT. Am i concerned about warranty to the engine? Absolutely not. For over 40 years I have ridden over 500,000 miles and never had an engine issue, not matter what oil I used. Am I lucky? Yes I am. Am I worried now? No I am not. In the end, its is my choice, as it will be yours. Happy Trails. Ride in Faith.

[IWN2RYD]

IWN2RYD, I can understand your concern for oil. I don't know if you can get the answer you want on this forum. I, for one, will not tell someone what oil to use. I decided on Royal Purple after reading numerous on-line sites on different oils, etc. It seems to me that when any oil company posts results of tests, their oil will meet or be superior to others contested. I call that marketing. Not to say that the other oils are not good.

Could not agree more. I certainly mean well and am just trying to learn, not challenge ones likes or dislikes in Oils/Brands/Etc...

The reason for me not letting the question slide is quite simple. This has been spoken on a few times, I read those and participated in a few. It seems every time one is looking for information no answers other than opinions or like and so on ever develop.

It is 100% my fault for not asking this way in the past, before I purchased the oil I did. But a forum like this is very valuable to folks like me who are experts in a few things and not in countless others.

We rely on information offered by others on forums that have proven valuable in the past and are chalked full of folks far more knowledgeable than most. Yeah just like anything in life we trust to much or read into things one way or another.

I am not an expert in almost anything discussed here. But more than one person has responded with opinions and present them like facts.

My first hopes in coming into this thread was learning more on Mobil 1 and potentially running that in our new 2011 RT-S SE5. This is why I chimed in hoping we all could learn more as this subject is a few months down the road from last time.

[NancysToy]

IWN2RYD, I'm not sure why you are letting this drive you so nuts. The bottom line is that you may no longer be able to find an oil other than the BRP oil that will meet their specifications. (Does anyone sense a plan here?) Virtually all oils carry multiple ratings. While for most applications, a higher rating in addition to the one specified, carries no risk...that is not the case with wet clutch motorcycle engines. All Spyder owners are in this bind. The 2008 Spyders specified a full synthetic oil, meeting certain specifications. Then BRP came out with their Summer Blend, which did not meet those specifications, yet that oil was specified for all the later Spyders, along with any full synthetic or synthetic blend designed for motorcycle use...without the API-SM rating. At that time they did not issue a service bulletin or any other announcement that would let the 2008 owners off the hook for a full synthetic meeting the API-SL rating. Now manufacturers have apparently found a way to meet the API-SM rating without the friction modifiers that cause clutch slippage. (I can't imagine Mobil1 motorcycle oil would be marketed if it was bad for motorcycles.) Unfortunately, BRP's specification once again remains the same. We are hung out on a limb again!

No, your dealer won't test your oil in case of failure. What he might do, however, in case of a problem in instances where the owner changed his own oil, would be to insist on your maintenance records. The oil you used would be revealed then. If your records were insufficient to prove you used the proper oil, your claim could be legally denied. Clutch trouble would be the most common trigger for this type of action on the dealer's part. If a tech does not find a mechanical failure (or a turbo, eh Doc) that caused a clutch to burn up, he would immediately suspect the wrong oil was used.

Note that most oils carry multiple ratings. The rule of thumb is to use any oil whose label carries the rating specified in your owner's manual...provided it does not list any rating which is specifically prohibited. In this situation, the ball would be in BRP's court to make any necessary adjustments to their specification. Since they did not do so in 2009, I sure wouldn't expect it now. They have put the burden of proof on us...in effect forcing us to buy their oil (which doesn't meet their own spec, but is specifically listed as OK for all but 2008 Spyders.) Your frustration is best addressed with them, I'm afraid. Best of luck climbing that mountain!

[BajaRon]

with Scotty.

Don't read this if you are susceptible to migraines!

Oil can be as simple, or as complicated as you want to make it. It doesn't have to give you a headache, but it can.

The oil we get in a can isn't what the Arab's send us in barrels. First, Chemical engineers play all kinds of games with it.

Then the marketing people get involved.

Clueless said in a previous post; "after the oil heats up you either 5W40 or 10W40 is the SAME weight running at SAE40 weight at operating temp so again no difference. So its a WIN WIN to use 5W40 over 10W40. all things being equal."

And, in a perfect world, and all things being equal, this would be a correct statement. But, unfortunatly, it isn't a perfect world, and all things are certainly not equal. If you dig deeper into oil testing you'll find viscosities can be all over the map and nowhere near what the label on the bottle states even after only a few hundred miles.

That article from Clueless is a good one, but the part about 40 weight being 40 weight is more intended theory than reality (as you'll see if you read further down).

It would be nice if it were that easy. And honestly, it should be. But honesty is part of the problem. You have to understand, the job of the oil manufactures is not to make oil, it is to SELL oil, and in doing so, make a profit. Bigger profit is better.

If you read down a little further in the excellent article posted by Clueless, you'll find that synthetic is not necessarily synthetic. In fact, the United States is the only country in the world that allows Group III based oils to be marketed as 'Full Synthetic' (which they are not).

Amsoil and Mobil 1 are the only Group IV based oils (True Synthetic) that I know of (thought it's been sometime since I checked this).

Group IV is a more expensive base than Group III. And if you can sell the cheaper Group III as Synthetic (and make more money) then....

Group III based oils must have the same modifiers to get multiple viscosities as do so called Dyno oils. The greater the spread between numbers, the more modifiers are needed. These modifiers tend to break down, especially when you add a transmission to the equation.

As they break down, so does your effective viscosity and protection.

Group IV based oils do not need these modifiers so they maintain original specs much longer.

That is why, in my opinion, it is a shame to pass over a great product like Amsoil, or Mobil 1 for that matter, because of a 5w/10w difference. But, of course, this is just my opinion and it's always worth what it costs.

I am not saying that everyone should rush out and get Amsoil or Mobil 1. Or that other oils used by Spyder owners aren't going a great job. But knowing as much as you can will always lead you to the best choice for what you are trying to accomplish.

[BajaRon]

There must be something wrong with me because I love oil discussions! I guess it only confirms what Lamont has been saying about me for years!

Anyway, with all the concern about wet clutch application, this is some interesting information.

Now, of course, this is from Amsoil and they are marketing their product. So you have to take that into consideration. I would have liked to see more oils tested. Makes me wonder if other oils might out perform Amsoil in this area.

Go to Page 22 of this document where they give wet clutch friction information.

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf

[clueless]

Here is an oil that is Truly Synthetic rating in multiple countries. Made in France.

Motul 300V 4T

http://www.motul.co.jp/eg/product_li...4stroke09.html

SAE/DOT Standard 5W40 Specification API SL & JASO MA

Weight meets BRP Requirements = CHECK

Specs meets BRP Requirements = CHECK




(disclaimer) I do not work for an oil company, marketing company, nor a supplier for any brand of oil. I am not a FanBoy of one brand or another ... LOL

I do like Mobile 1 V-TWIN oil for my Harley and I run Mobile 1 Gear Oil in the Transmission of my Harley Fatboy.

Just they do not make 5W40 and now their rating has changed.

[clueless]

Go to Page 22 of this document where they give wet clutch friction information.

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf

from Page 22 = "Motul and Royal Purple meet the JASO MA specification"

Meets BajaRon requirement = CHECK


the rest of most of the oil websites including the one I posted if from is AMSOL marketing cr$p. like BajaRon said they (in this case AMSOL) can spin it to make their best features (i.e. what they test) as listed in their report and bury what they suck at by not showing that graph or chart.

[BLACK WIDOW]

with Scotty.

Don't read this if you are susceptible to migraines!

Oil can be as simple, or as complicated as you want to make it. It doesn't have to give you a headache, but it can.

The oil we get in a can isn't what the Arab's send us in barrels. First, Chemical engineers play all kinds of games with it.

Then the marketing people get involved.

Clueless said in a previous post; "after the oil heats up you either 5W40 or 10W40 is the SAME weight running at SAE40 weight at operating temp so again no difference. So its a WIN WIN to use 5W40 over 10W40. all things being equal."

And, in a perfect world, and all things being equal, this would be a correct statement. But, unfortunatly, it isn't a perfect world, and all things are certainly not equal. If you dig deeper into oil testing you'll find viscosities can be all over the map and nowhere near what the label on the bottle states even after only a few hundred miles.

That article from Clueless is a good one, but the part about 40 weight being 40 weight is more intended theory than reality (as you'll see if you read further down).

It would be nice if it were that easy. And honestly, it should be. But honesty is part of the problem. You have to understand, the job of the oil manufactures is not to make oil, it is to SELL oil, and in doing so, make a profit. Bigger profit is better.

If you read down a little further in the excellent article posted by Clueless, you'll find that synthetic is not necessarily synthetic. In fact, the United States is the only country in the world that allows Group III based oils to be marketed as 'Full Synthetic' (which they are not).

Amsoil and Mobil 1 are the only Group IV based oils (True Synthetic) that I know of (thought it's been sometime since I checked this).

Group IV is a more expensive base than Group III. And if you can sell the cheaper Group III as Synthetic (and make more money) then....

Group III based oils must have the same modifiers to get multiple viscosities as do so called Dyno oils. The greater the spread between numbers, the more modifiers are needed. These modifiers tend to break down, especially when you add a transmission to the equation.

As they break down, so does your effective viscosity and protection.

Group IV based oils do not need these modifiers so they maintain original specs much longer.

That is why, in my opinion, it is a shame to pass over a great product like Amsoil, or Mobil 1 for that matter, because of a 5w/10w difference. But, of course, this is just my opinion and it's always worth what it costs.

I am not saying that everyone should rush out and get Amsoil or Mobil 1. Or that other oils used by Spyder owners aren't going a great job. But knowing as much as you can will always lead you to the best choice for what you are trying to accomplish.

You are right on, my friend!!

[IWN2RYD]

Man a lot of great info...

I hope we get even more and someone can answer the multiple rating question for us...

[BajaRon]

from Page 22 = "Motul and Royal Purple meet the JASO MA specification"

Meets BajaRon requirement = CHECK


the rest of most of the oil websites including the one I posted if from is AMSOL marketing cr$p. like BajaRon said they (in this case AMSOL) can spin it to make their best features (i.e. what they test) as listed in their report and bury what they suck at by not showing that graph or chart.

I don't have any requirements, other than personal!

[Campverdefela]

Here is an oil that is Truly Synthetic rating in multiple countries. Made in France.

Motul 300V 4T

http://www.motul.co.jp/eg/product_line_up/4stroke/4stroke09.html

SAE/DOT Standard 5W40 Specification API SL & JASO MA

Weight meets BRP Requirements = CHECK

Specs meets BRP Requirements = CHECK




(disclaimer) I do not work for an oil company, marketing company, nor a supplier for any brand of oil. I am not a FanBoy of one brand or another ... LOL

I do like Mobile 1 V-TWIN oil for my Harley and I run Mobile 1 Gear Oil in the Transmission of my Harley Fatboy.

Just they do not make 5W40 and now their rating has changed.

Thats what I use, also the only double ester oil on the market.

[BajaRon]

Man a lot of great info...

I hope we get even more and someone can answer the multiple rating question for us...

As I said, the job of oil companies is to SELL as much oil as they can. These days, many brands are actually the same exact oil in a different container (and with different pricing depending on how good their marketing program is).

This can be amusing as someone will swear by brand X and say brand Y sucks. And they are identical except for the container, which you throw away. The marketing guys must be laughing all the way to the bank!

As for multiple ratings. Again, the idea is to SELL. The customer comes in, looks for the recommended rating on the bottle. If he sees it he buys, if he doesn't he moves on to another brand.

The more hooks in the water, the better chance of catching fish!

So, what to do about the SM rating and wet clutch applications? To me it's an easy solution because there is another rating specifically designed to test wet clutch slippage. If you don't get clutch slippage, what difference does the SM rating mean to us? (Other than the warranty thing which to me is bogus unless you're using a non-recommended oil which I understand brings us back full circle).

But here is where I choose to get off this bus!

The JASO rating tells you (basically) if your clutch will silp or not, regardless of any other rating listed on the bottle.

The MA2 JASO rating is the best, (most clutch friction, least slippage). Next comes MA (some list it as MA1, same thing). A little less clutch friction and a little more chance for slippage. And you want to stay clear of oils with a wet clutch rating of MB. You will very likely get slippage with the MB rated oils.

So, if the oil is MA or MA2 rated, who cares if it is also SM rated? That just means they have found a way to chemically engineer the oil to meet the SM standard without a negative impact to wet clutch applications.

Few oils have the MA2 rating. There are more with the MA rating. But here again, there is a range of slippage allowed to qualify for the MA rating. So just because your oil is MA rated does not necessarily mean it provides the same wet clutch performance as another MA rated oil. And some oils are labeled MA but don't actually meet the requirement in testing.

So, take two asprin and call me in the morning!

[IWN2RYD]

As I said, the job of oil companies is to SELL as much oil as they can. Totally understand that



So, what to do about the SM rating and wet clutch applications? To me it's an easy solution because there is another rating specifically designed to test wet clutch slippage. If you don't get clutch slippage, what difference does the SM rating mean to us? (Other than the warranty thing which to me is bogus unless you're using a non-recommended oil which I understand brings us back full circle). Exactly!!! hahahahaha

But here is where I choose to get off this bus! Please do not go! We need you!!

The JASO rating tells you (basically) if your clutch will silp or not, regardless of any other rating listed on the bottle. Ok.. this is where the rubber meets the road. Phew!!! So the oil I am using will be just fine... Or even the Mobil 1 or Motul (That I use in every offload ride I have had the past five years ish)



So, if the oil is MA or MA2 rated, who cares if it is also SM rated? That just means they have found a way to chemically engineer the oil to meet the SM standard without a negative impact to wet clutch applications. Check

Few oils have the MA2 rating. There are more with the MA rating. But here again, there is a range of slippage allowed to qualify for the MA rating. So just because your oil is MA rated does not necessarily mean it provides the same wet clutch performance as another MA rated oil. And some oils are labeled MA but don't actually meet the requirement in testing. Good Lord... Not another circle!!!!

So, take two asprin and call me in the morning! .... I will add one shot of my favorite Rum and call it a day.... lol

Thank you!

[IWN2RYD]

I didn't have much luck with Rotella
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=6390

Oh man I completely missed this post.. Ok.. I am selling off the newer T6 and just start over on the 2011...

[NancysToy]

Here's another to throw in the mix-

CASTROL POWER RS RACING — Ultimate Power & Performance
SPECIFICATIONS

• API SERVICE: Exceeds API SL
• JASO (T903): JASO MA-2
• VISCOSITY: SAE 5W-40 // 10W-40 // 10W-50

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/secti...tentId=7040544

I would love to use this oil, but the only way I can get it is mail-order, which I am reluctant to do. The dealers don't carry it here, and they say they can't order it. Apparently the area distributor doesn't stock it.

[IWN2RYD]

Please take this with a grain of salt...

I just got off the phone with a BRP Rep in Canada. He was very helpful and informative.

As was my dealer of choice Clem's in Enumclaw...

As a personal decision based off of all this information. I will only be buying BRP's version and call it a day.

Scotty and I think a lot alike when it comes to warranties and I will just leave it there.

If this was a $6000-12,000 bike.... well I may not care and would just use my Motul stash. But these are not even close to that price category and I will run BRP oils till the B.E.S.T. runs out and the landscape is easier to maneuver through (Yeah right, but I can hope right! )

I greatly appreciate all of the input offered up by all the members and for the OP starting this thread. Otherwise I would have started off with our new 2011 on the wrong foot...

[clueless]

Here's another to throw in the mix-
CASTROL POWER RS RACING — Ultimate Power & Performance Castrol Power RS Racing with Trizone Technology is a full synthetic 4-stroke motorcycle oil designed to ensure maximum power and performance, even under the most demanding riding conditions. Its anti-friction formulation is proven to increase acceleration compared to conventional motorcycle oils.

BENEFITS

• Full synthetic 4-stroke motorcycle oil
• Race derived technology for maximum engine acceleration
• Extreme high temperature air-cooled and water-cooled engine performance
• Excellent shear stability to prevent viscosity breakdown

SPECIFICATIONS

• API SERVICE: Exceeds API SL
• JASO (T903): JASO MA-2
• VISCOSITY: SAE 5W-40 // 10W-40 // 10W-50

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/secti...tentId=7040544

This was the other Oil I looked at. my dealer actually stocks this stuff...

As a personal decision based off of all this information. I will only be buying BRP's version and call it a day.

Scotty and I think a lot alike when it comes to warranties and I will just leave it there.

I greatly appreciate all of the input offered up by all the members and for the OP starting this thread. Otherwise I would have started off with our new 2011 on the wrong foot...

Hey if you lived closer to me I would offer to buy your Motul if its 5W40 .... but you can not go wrong with the BRP. just not sure why they went with the summer SEMI SYNTH other then to make a less expensive oil. I would stick with the GOLD Full Synth.

but without any ratings or weight on their oil bottle it is hard to compare to the others. I feel that the Castrol mentioned above or the Motul 300V 4T (both full synth) is better then the BRP.

The easy way for warranty coverage is stick with BRP. I can easily justify if it comes to it with Motul 300V 4T as it meets all their requirements in the Shop Manual and the owners Manual.

[BajaRon]

Originally Posted by HDXBONES
Here's another to throw in the mix-

CASTROL POWER RS RACING — Ultimate Power & Performance



SPECIFICATIONS

• API SERVICE: Exceeds API SL
• JASO (T903): JASO MA-2
• VISCOSITY: SAE 5W-40 // 10W-40 // 10W-50

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/secti...tentId=7040544

I would love to use this oil, but the only way I can get it is mail-order, which I am reluctant to do. The dealers don't carry it here, and they say they can't order it. Apparently the area distributor doesn't stock it.

That oil looks very good to me too. Next time I'm out I will see if we have it around here. Not that I'm unhappy with Amsoil, but you never know when you'll need an ace in the hole!

I do know that Castrol cheats on some of their 'Synthetic' oils in the US. But it looks like this one is a true syhthetic. I've always liked Castrol products.

[retired1]

I just got back from my dealers Christmas party. His BRP oil arrives on Castrol pallets.

[BajaRon]

I just got back from my dealers Christmas party. His BRP oil arrives on Castrol pallets.

Well, you know BRP doesn't make oil, they purchase it from a manufacturer, and in this case it looks to be Castrol.

Which has been my real point all along. BRP and your dealer may tell you that only BRP oil is the correct product. But in reality, there is no such thing. There is only someone elses oil in a BRP container.

And it is a sure thing that if you purchase the idential oil in a Castrol container, it will cost you less.

[SpyderWolf]

Well, you know BRP doesn't make oil, they purchase it from a manufacturer, and in this case it looks to be Castrol.

Which has been my real point all along. BRP and your dealer may tell you that only BRP oil is the correct product. But in reality, there is no such thing. There is only someone elses oil in a BRP container.

And it is a sure thing that if you purchase the idential oil in a Castrol container, it will cost you less.

Ding, ding, ding. That is the correct answer all the way around. I too have seen the Castrol pallets with the BRP cases on them. I currently have Mobil 1 in our Spyders, but would be happy to try the Castrol Power RS oil if I can find it.

[Lamonster]

Well, you know BRP doesn't make oil, they purchase it from a manufacturer, and in this case it looks to be Castrol.

Which has been my real point all along. BRP and your dealer may tell you that only BRP oil is the correct product. But in reality, there is no such thing. There is only someone elses oil in a BRP container.

And it is a sure thing that if you purchase the idential oil in a Castrol container, it will cost you less.

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/secti...tentId=7040371