Overheated 2013's

[Magdave]

Dave - the PCV completely replaces the OEM FI logic and map. I'd have to look at the installation instructions for the Spyder as to whether it uses the OEM O2 sensor, but I know that if you add the Auto Tune, it comes with its own O2 sensors which at that point I think would take BRP completely out of the picture. On top of that, you have the PCV software to tune it / tweak it any way you want. I had the PCV on my VFR and it completely replaced Honda's FI unit which included the O2 sensors. When I get a chance, I'll see if I can research it a little further to confirm.

I hear ya and have looked at it. Now how about my 5yr warranty and BRP's opinion of using it?

[stewartj239]

I hear ya and have looked at it. Now how about my 5yr warranty and BRP's opinion of using it?

Does the wording explicitly say that you can't? On the VFR forum, I never heard of this as a problem or concern. It was a comon upgrade.

[Bob Denman]

Stew,
You mentioned the potential for different maps...
Keeping in mind that BRP has to stay 100% EPA compliant with everything that they do; we would have FAR more leeway in the tuning options that we have...
Additionally...
Do we know if they have the same mapping in all of the bikes? Does location matter?
A bike in Denver MIGHT be mapped differently than one snet to New York State... or Michigan.
Temperature and altitude factors...
The higher you go, or the hotter you are; the leaner the mixtures will be (can be) set...
Char's bike in Texas: HOT!HOT!HOT! Temperatures; not necessarily the bike!
If a map for Michigan was available???

[Bob Denman]

Oh! I almost forgot this one...
Doc posted a chart with the leakdown test results for the Vee-Twins... It showed them to be blowing a lot of stuff right past the rings...
My question(s):
If they have to figure that "stuff" into the equation when dealing with pollutants; would it make sense to spend money trying to tighten these babies up a bit? It would seem that you could run a richer mix if you've got less crap in the system from other sources?

[stewartj239]

Stew,
You mentioned the potential for different maps...
Keeping in mind that BRP has to stay 100% EPA compliant with everything that they do; we would have FAR more leeway in the tuning options that we have...
Additionally...
Do we know if they have the same mapping in all of the bikes? Does location matter?
A bike in Denver MIGHT be mapped differently than one snet to New York State... or Michigan.
Temperature and altitude factors...
The higher you go, or the hotter you are; the leaner the mixtures will be (can be) set...
Char's bike in Texas: HOT!HOT!HOT! Temperatures; not necessarily the bike!
If a map for Michigan was available???

Your comment about having to stay 100% EPA compliant was one of the suggestions on the VFR forum for why the OEM mapping was so bad. Honda had to make it that way so it could pass. Once you took possession of the bike, you added to the PCV to make it right. I would assume that BRP has the same obstacle that they need to deal with.

As far as different maps for altitude and average temps, you would think that ultimately there would be different maps, but then during production, they'd have to load the right map for the dealer it was going to - more of a build to order. I would guess that they just make what they're going to make and they're built to stock - where they would just get a generic map not knowing where they will end up.

Also, your comment about the blow-by with the rings is interesting, I guess that would explain why I use 1/2 quart of oil every 4K miles

[Bob Denman]

...And if they need to lean things out due to all of that oil sneaking past the rings...

[Dan McNally]

Really? You spend $30k on a machine and then countless dollars farkling it out with all kinds of other junk and your bitching about having to spend $600 to make it perfect and comfortable with no heat issues??



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I just don't understand what appears to be a desire to belittle someone else in a public forum. It isn't what rational, mature adults do. I don't have "countless dollars" worth of farkles . . . and if I did, that is my right. As for "bitching about spending $600 to make it perfect", please tell me how $600 will guarantee the heat issue will go away, because I'll be writing the check, tonight. To date, no one knows for sure why the heat issue is occuring, nor what the fix is. There is just a lot of conjecture. Another poster in a heat related thread suggested we take our Spyders to "a competent dealer" and get them fixed . . . he never did reply to my question that asked him what it was the "compentent dealer " could do to fix the problem. Please, if you have something to add to the conversation that will help resolve the problem, share it with us . . . that is why we are discussing the issue. If you just feel the need to be abusive or chastise us us, just say it out loud and don't bother typing it. It does no one any good and just ramps up the agravation and hostility.

[Bob Denman]

Guys...
There's a problem here; folks are kicking around ideas for solutions...
Can we pu-LEEZE try to keep this on track?
Thanks!

[NancysToy]

.....If a map for Michigan was available???

I'm guessing that you don't mean the one you get by looking at your right palm?

[DrewNJ]

I just don't understand what appears to be a desire to belittle someone else in a public forum. It isn't what rational, mature adults do. I don't have "countless dollars" worth of farkles . . . and if I did, that is my right. As for "bitching about spending $600 to make it perfect", please tell me how $600 will guarantee the heat issue will go away, because I'll be writing the check, tonight. To date, no one knows for sure why the heat issue is occuring, nor what the fix is. There is just a lot of conjecture. Another poster in a heat related thread suggested we take our Spyders to "a competent dealer" and get them fixed . . . he never did reply to my question that asked him what it was the "compentent dealer " could do to fix the problem. Please, if you have something to add to the conversation that will help resolve the problem, share it with us . . . that is why we are discussing the issue. If you just feel the need to be abusive or chastise us us, just say it out loud and don't bother typing it. It does no one any good and just ramps up the agravation and hostility.

I'm honestly at the point where I don't care anymore. I tried to help with first hand info that I actually have a bit of knowledge and experience with, and steps to take to get this problem licked correctly. Seems like everyone is dead set on getting a fix for free from BRP and in the meantime crying about it. Fine. I sincerely wish everyone the very best.

[DrewNJ]

Guys...
There's a problem here; folks are kicking around ideas for solutions...
Can we pu-LEEZE try to keep this on track?
Thanks!

Sorry Bob, but unless the fix includes the words "BRP", "Dealer", and "Free" it isn't going to happen with this group...It's sad really...

[Dan McNally]

I'm looking for a fix . . . not a "spend $600 and maybe it will fix it." If I knew that spending $600 would fix the problem, I'd spend it in a heartbeat.

[Bob Denman]

Okay... But if that's the fix that some folks are willing to try??
Raining on somebody else's party is just a bit...

[flamingobabe]

we have tossed around several different avenues to fix the ST.....I would be willing to spend $600 for a fix....I have about...a lot $$$$$ in extras......but there are so many different problems going on...every time we go to the shop..get the bike back seems fine...then new problems arise....BRP has asked me to keep it stock and I will do that for now...we shall see

I appreciate all suggestions....I copy and paste the ones I like for future reference...thanks you guys

[3 Wheel Addict]

Really? You spend $30k on a machine and then countless dollars farkling it out with all kinds of other junk and your bitching about having to spend $600 to make it perfect and comfortable with no heat issues??

My stock seat on my RS is pure crap. It's the same crap seat that's been on the RS/GS since 08'. It hurts my ass so much that I could not go more than 100 miles on the seat. My back pain got SO bad that I went to the doctor. The professional doctor told me that the seat I'm riding on is ergonomic ally crap and causing me pain. To add, everyone I've talked to with the same seat has the same problem. this problem has caused me to spend several hundred dollars to make the Spyder rideable.
Now, should I just come on here and bitch and expect BRP to make me a nice comfy seat like the RT has? No, of course not. You fix it so it works best for you and move on.

Remember, all BRP would have to do to totally fook all of you is to simply say the machine is operating the way they designed it, replace any melted parts under warranty until it out of warranty and tell you to piss off.

Sometimes it's easier to do something yourself, even if it costs you a bit, then to be miserable. Be done with this peeps and be happy!...jeesh.


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I agree with you on a lot of this... I'm real tall at 6'4" and for me the seat on my RT/S was just terrible. However I have had to buy a custom seat for almost every bike I have ever owned because of my size, but on the flip side I have never had to buy "things" to make the bike tolerable to ride. I think if you poke around here enough you will find that we (hot bike owners) are doing just that, within reason. I have removed and wrapped my exhaust pipes and that indeed has helped, but i'm not going to do anything that could kill my 5 year warranty. It may come to that if we don't get results, like my front shocks... they suck! But will BRP get me different ones just because i'm a big guy, no, will I have to do that on my own, yes.

[jcthorne]

I'm looking for a fix . . . not a "spend $600 and maybe it will fix it." If I knew that spending $600 would fix the problem, I'd spend it in a heartbeat.

I think there are quite a number of 2013 owners in this predicament. $600 is a lot to spend to try and see if it works. If it was a known fix, I and many others would likely go ahead and spend the bucks.

I do believe the lean run condition is a leading cause of the hot running 2013 bikes. My theory on why some are worse than others is that BRP has them running about as lean at low throttle and idle as they dare push, the difference is in the manufacturing tolerance of the O2 sensors. Where these bikes are running, it would not take much error to make 200 or more degrees of exhaust temp change. I think this anomaly and how best to account for it and still remain EPA legal is the quandary BRP is trying to solve.

The factory PCM is reflash programmable if one had the software tools to do so. If a 'leak' occurred where the encryption for reprogramming the PCM were to become available, the aftermarket would solve this problem very quickly. A simple dyno tune session would fix the bike up. No replacement of parts would be needed. This is exactly what occurs in the Ford aftermarket tuning and many other brands.

[Magdave]

I think there are quite a number of 2013 owners in this predicament. $600 is a lot to spend to try and see if it works. If it was a known fix, I and many others would likely go ahead and spend the bucks.

I do believe the lean run condition is a leading cause of the hot running 2013 bikes. My theory on why some are worse than others is that BRP has them running about as lean at low throttle and idle as they dare push, the difference is in the manufacturing tolerance of the O2 sensors. Where these bikes are running, it would not take much error to make 200 or more degrees of exhaust temp change. I think this anomaly and how best to account for it and still remain EPA legal is the quandary BRP is trying to solve.

The factory PCM is reflash programmable if one had the software tools to do so. If a 'leak' occurred where the encryption for reprogramming the PCM were to become available, the aftermarket would solve this problem very quickly. A simple dyno tune session would fix the bike up. No replacement of parts would be needed. This is exactly what occurs in the Ford aftermarket tuning and many other brands.

BUDS is the only communication software with the PCM available. I am not sure how the PCV comms work but I am guessing they are using the canbus system to deliver info to the PCM may be fake (adjusted O2) readings to richen the injector pulse. As far as maps go there is 1 map...period. As you ride the bike it changes to adjust it just like the PCV would do, based on the O2 readings. I am not sure what it is called in BRP terms but in the Corvette world there is BLMs ( Block Learn Modes) that represent the value read and sent to the injector from the ECM. The normal number is 128. Higher is leaner, lower is richer and when you get a dyno tune that is what they are looking to get at different RPMs. At WOT ( or above a certain RPM ) the settings are ignored and the Injectors are pulsed to the max. I Hope this puts to rest the multi map concept there is only one. Now here is what can be wrong and what may be causing lean conditions. That 128 number depends on several inputs mostly O2s and RPMs and has a scaling factor built into the ECM maybe BRP like their bikes to run at 130 so the program tables are filled with BLMs for different RPMs that accomplish that and as it watches the O2 feedback it is looking for an "average" ( O2 sensors jump all over the place they are nowhere near static while an engine is running) return voltage form the O2 to confirm the 130 is what it is running at. If not the ECM will adjust the tables to adjust the injector pulse. All of this is why BRP may take some time to come up with a software fix. It is easier to do each bike than a mass change you have to find a happy medium that is one for all.

[jerpinoy]

Why should John or any of the Spyder owner's, with a HEAT ISSUES, have to purchase an aftermarket device to make it right.. If that might work.

I for one will not do that! It is BRP's issue to make the fix, not mine. To many people think they know how to fix the HEAT issues and are willing to spend their $$$$, if this type of fixes seems to work for them, good.

But then why would BRP make any effort to find a fix if the owners will are willing to do it for them...

and We are part of the BRP R&D
(R&D) Research and development.

[Bob Denman]

Trying to kick around worthwhile ideas; you guys still keep trying to pee in the pool...