RT ACCIDENT

[Firefly]

Very glad they're okay!

Now that we have much better information, it's pretty clear this *may* have had nothing to do with the DPS. The other important thing mentioned was that he hit a curb. I've yet to hear of a Spyder flipping over without the assistance of something like a curb.

I personally don't see a spyder being able to flip at such a slow speed without some external influence (curb).

And with all due respect to the rider - (and I'm not saying this was the case here as I wasn't there and don't know the riders experience level) - most accidents are due to operator error - not equipment malfunction.

We all need to be prepared for equipment failure at all times. Something as simple as a flat tire could instigate an accident such as this one.

Practice the various maneuvers in the owners manual. Practice emergency shutdowns, etc.

------

One other thing I noticed that might be a typo Desert Spyder-- you mentioned a 10-15 second gap between riders. This seem really really excessive for a 'group' ride IMO.

Thanks for keeping us all posted. Glad they have a good attitude about it all.

[Desert Spyder]

Very glad they're okay!

Now that we have much better information, it's pretty clear this *may* have had nothing to do with the DPS. The other important thing mentioned was that he hit a curb. I've yet to hear of a Spyder flipping over without the assistance of something like a curb.

I personally don't see a spyder being able to flip at such a slow speed without some external influence (curb).

And with all due respect to the rider - (and I'm not saying this was the case here as I wasn't there and don't know the riders experience level) - most accidents are due to operator error - not equipment malfunction.

We all need to be prepared for equipment failure at all times. Something as simple as a flat tire could instigate an accident such as this one.

Practice the various maneuvers in the owners manual. Practice emergency shutdowns, etc.

------

One other thing I noticed that might be a typo Desert Spyder-- you mentioned a 10-15 second gap between riders. This seem really really excessive for a 'group' ride IMO.

Thanks for keeping us all posted. Glad they have a good attitude about it all.

You're right Firefly and it all depends of course on how fast you're going. A five second interval at freeway speeds is several car lengths away. Something every driver, no matter how many wheels they are on, should be practicing.

If I get any more factual information I'll be sure to relay it on to the community. I feel we will all have a sense of well being and safety with the knowledge.

BTW, have a Happy New Year all!

[Dudley]

One other thing I noticed that might be a typo Desert Spyder-- you mentioned a 10-15 second gap between riders. This seem really really excessive for a 'group' ride IMO. by Firefly

Years ago while riding with the GWRRA we were riding tight and staggered (2 seconds) on a 2-lane highway, doing the speed limit. Someone tried to pass all of us and had to squeeze a Goldwing to the far right of the lane to avoid a head on. I know what the professionals say about group riding, but even on muli-lane highways the cars will try and get between you for the next exit. They have no problem doing so. I am not one to argue with a 4-wheeled metal box. If I get hit, I lose. Period. That is why I will not ride with any group that rides tight. After one incident on I-5 a while back I was indirectly called at the meeting about someone coming between me and the Spyder in front of me. I had watched the driver in the car and his actions showed me that he wanted the space that was less than safe...I gladly gave it to him. If that is unsafe, count me out.

[Raptor]

If I remember correctly from a post awhile back, there are actually 2 fuses; one near the trunk and the other under the seat.

And you would be correct! Fuse number 4 on service panel in trunk and fuse number 5 under the seat. I pulled the latter so if I only pulled the first one... HMMM...

[Raptor]

One other thing I noticed that might be a typo Desert Spyder-- you mentioned a 10-15 second gap between riders. This seem really really excessive for a 'group' ride IMO. by Firefly

Years ago while riding with the GWRRA we were riding tight and staggered (2 seconds) on a 2-lane highway, doing the speed limit. Someone tried to pass all of us and had to squeeze a Goldwing to the far right of the lane to avoid a head on. I know what the professionals say about group riding, but even on muli-lane highways the cars will try and get between you for the next exit. They have no problem doing so. I am not one to argue with a 4-wheeled metal box. If I get hit, I lose. Period. That is why I will not ride with any group that rides tight. After one incident on I-5 a while back I was indirectly called at the meeting about someone coming between me and the Spyder in front of me. I had watched the driver in the car and his actions showed me that he wanted the space that was less than safe...I gladly gave it to him. If that is unsafe, count me out.

I know they say 2 seconds, but the way some people drive their cars a wider gap seems better to me as well. 15 seconds might be a bit much, but if the group is OK with it, no problem for me!

[bone crusher]

I just got my new DPS installed, steers much easier than before, almost too easy. Before it used to understeer, now it seems to oversteer slightly. It seems like it would be able to dodge a pothole or something in the road much better at speed than before, seems to have more assist at higher speeds, seemed a little sluggish before. I was happy with the old DPS, but the new one is much better, I'm happy. Had both updates done, that went well also, and seems to shift much easier. They said i need to keep a closer watch on the oil level, that i was 2 quarts low, i said "i don't think so" when i got home and looked at the oil stick it was 1.5" above the full mark!

I'm totally with you...the steering is very loose to me...I'd prefer it to be much tighter at higher speeds...I'd even be happy without much of any assist, but that's just me...

[bikeguy]

One other thing I noticed that might be a typo Desert Spyder-- you mentioned a 10-15 second gap between riders. This seem really really excessive for a 'group' ride IMO. by Firefly

Years ago while riding with the GWRRA we were riding tight and staggered (2 seconds) on a 2-lane highway, doing the speed limit. Someone tried to pass all of us and had to squeeze a Goldwing to the far right of the lane to avoid a head on. I know what the professionals say about group riding, but even on muli-lane highways the cars will try and get between you for the next exit. They have no problem doing so. I am not one to argue with a 4-wheeled metal box. If I get hit, I lose. Period. That is why I will not ride with any group that rides tight. After one incident on I-5 a while back I was indirectly called at the meeting about someone coming between me and the Spyder in front of me. I had watched the driver in the car and his actions showed me that he wanted the space that was less than safe...I gladly gave it to him. If that is unsafe, count me out.

Dudley, I absolutely agree with you. I'm not much for riding in large groups anyway but I always believe in leaving enough room between riders that a cage can get in between us. I know that can't always be managed in freeway traffic but, when it can, I feel safer.

As far as this accident is concerned, I'm glad the two riders are doing okay and pray they continue to mend just fine. From all I've read in this thread, I doubt anyone knows the exact cause of the accident. I expect we will all be glad if the dealer or BRP can actually determine a cause for the accident. However, I will be surprised if we ever know the exact cause. I know from personal experience that things happen so fast in a crash that it's hard for a rider to reconstruct exactly what happened in his/her memory. It is almost as hard for someone watching the crash to reconstruct it. I expect that's why we have seen some slightly conflicting versions of the crash. I pray that the couple who crashed continues to mend and that the time will come when they feel confident enough to get back on their RT and enjoy the ride again.

Cotton

[NancysToy]

I really don't believe in the two second rule, even in staggered formation. There are too many incidents of bikes in this tight of a group hitting each other in case of a problem, and there is no room for the inevitable intrusion...even with a small group. I have been converted to the 3-5 second interval...in good weather. 15 seconds is way too much, however. That is over 1,500 feet at 70 mph! If you leave more than a quarter mile between bikes, you will lose the group, have endless intrusions, and lose the visibility advantages that group riding affords. You may as well be riding alone. Leave enough space to avoid trouble and stop safely, but don't stretch it out so far that you become visually distinct from the group. Just my humble opinion.

[Desert Spyder]

I really don't believe in the two second rule, even in staggered formation. There are too many incidents of bikes in this tight of a group hitting each other in case of a problem, and there is no room for the inevitable intrusion...even with a small group. I have been converted to the 3-5 second interval...in good weather. 15 seconds is way too much, however. That is over 1,500 feet at 70 mph! If you leave more than a quarter mile between bikes, you will lose the group, have endless intrusions, and lose the visibility advantages that group riding affords. You may as well be riding alone. Leave enough space to avoid trouble and stop safely, but don't stretch it out so far that you become visually distinct from the group. Just my humble opinion.

Maybe I overestimated the interval timing but one thing isn't overestimated: highway statistics. Group ryding requires discipline and the road captain must insure every ryder is aware of the rules on the road. Bike clubs (most of them) are very good at this and hot dogging is not allowed. But most Spyder owners have never been part of a club I wager.

I've been on Spyder runs where we divide into Hounds and Hares. The Hares are up in front and the Hounds are in back at a slower pace. But everyone must know where they are going or it will be a disaster. A good Road Captain or Run Leader will wait at several intervals to allow everyone to regroup.

Speed and fun are secondary to safety.

[Questions]

Too sore to write much - will post more when I can move. I do want to make a couple of points, We really appreciate everyones' prayers and well wishes - please keep us in your thoughts. Second point - Spyderflyer is a great American! We often speak of others as "brothers & sisters" during the course of our daily lives, he acted as if we were his brother and sister. There is a huge difference in talking and doing. We cannot thank Spyderflyer enough for being a doer. We will be forever thankful he was on wing duty when this happened. Last point, when the spyder went hard right it hit a concrete curb. I had no control I could discern in the less than a second between fault occuring and hitting the curb. We have about 14K miles on the spyder; all recall work dealer is aware of is completed.

Desertspyder - thanks for inviting us on the ride -- as soon as we heal up and get another spyder, we will be back! Spydervet06

[NancysToy]

Maybe I overestimated the interval timing but one thing isn't overestimated: highway statistics. Group ryding requires discipline and the road captain must insure every ryder is aware of the rules on the road. Bike clubs (most of them) are very good at this and hot dogging is not allowed. But most Spyder owners have never been part of a club I wager.

I've been on Spyder runs where we divide into Hounds and Hares. The Hares are up in front and the Hounds are in back at a slower pace. But everyone must know where they are going or it will be a disaster. A good Road Captain or Run Leader will wait at several intervals to allow everyone to regroup.

Speed and fun are secondary to safety.

[SpyderWolf]

Too sore to write much - will post more when I can move. I do want to make a couple of points, We really appreciate everyones' prayers and well wishes - please keep us in your thoughts. Second point - Spyderflyer is a great American! We often speak of others as "brothers & sisters" during the course of our daily lives, he acted as if we were his brother and sister. There is a huge difference in talking and doing. We cannot thank Spyderflyer enough for being a doer. We will be forever thankful he was on wing duty when this happened. Last point, when the spyder went hard right it hit a concrete curb. I had no control I could discern in the less than a second between fault occuring and hitting the curb. We have about 14K miles on the spyder; all recall work dealer is aware of is completed.

Desertspyder - thanks for inviting us on the ride -- as soon as we heal up and get another spyder, we will be back! Spydervet06

Glad to have you posting here, and hope you heal up quickly.

Was your Spyder damaged beyond repair in this accident? I can also understand if you no longer trust this one and just want to get a different one.

Please continue to rest up and heal, and pass my well wishes on to your wife for her healing as well.

[glynnk]

I really don't believe in the two second rule, even in staggered formation. There are too many incidents of bikes in this tight of a group hitting each other in case of a problem, and there is no room for the inevitable intrusion...even with a small group. I have been converted to the 3-5 second interval...in good weather. 15 seconds is way too much, however. That is over 1,500 feet at 70 mph! If you leave more than a quarter mile between bikes, you will lose the group, have endless intrusions, and lose the visibility advantages that group riding affords. You may as well be riding alone. Leave enough space to avoid trouble and stop safely, but don't stretch it out so far that you become visually distinct from the group. Just my humble opinion.

You gotta it right! Agree 100%.

Glynnk

[SpyderFun]

Glad to hear you guys are healing up!

First, it sounds like the steering "locked-up" which could be caused by the DPS and/or a "faulty sensor" input. Only investigating the components and putting them thru bench testing will likely determine a faulty component.

Second, BRP is heavily involved in the aviation community and is familiar with "electronics" and the potential of having an airplane of theirs making an "uncommanded control input" due to a faulty autopilot (ie: DPS) or a component of that system (ie: sensor).

Finally, I think patience is the path we all need to be on here BEFORE the finger pointing begins as to which course of action is not only necessary, but required.


Just my 2-cents....

[Firefly]

Glad to hear you guys are healing up!

First, it sounds like the steering "locked-up" which could be caused by the DPS and/or a "faulty sensor" input. Only investigating the components and putting them thru bench testing will likely determine a faulty component.

Second, BRP is heavily involved in the aviation community and is familiar with "electronics" and the potential of having an airplane of theirs making an "uncommanded control input" due to a faulty autopilot (ie: DPS) or a component of that system (ie: sensor).

Finally, I think patience is the path we all need to be on here BEFORE the finger pointing begins as to which course of action is not only necessary, but required.


Just my 2-cents....

Our BRP is no longer in the aviation business -- we are now a separate entity.


I see no reason to report to the NHTSA until a determination of whether there was a malfunction of any of the systems.

[bone crusher]

Too sore to write much - will post more when I can move. I do want to make a couple of points, We really appreciate everyones' prayers and well wishes - please keep us in your thoughts. Second point - Spyderflyer is a great American! We often speak of others as "brothers & sisters" during the course of our daily lives, he acted as if we were his brother and sister. There is a huge difference in talking and doing. We cannot thank Spyderflyer enough for being a doer. We will be forever thankful he was on wing duty when this happened. Last point, when the spyder went hard right it hit a concrete curb. I had no control I could discern in the less than a second between fault occuring and hitting the curb. We have about 14K miles on the spyder; all recall work dealer is aware of is completed.

Desertspyder - thanks for inviting us on the ride -- as soon as we heal up and get another spyder, we will be back! Spydervet06

Glad to hear your injuries are not as serious as they could've been...I really hope someone gets to the bottom of this...it sounds like a totally different type of problem!

[Bob Denman]

[QUOTE=bone crusher;275580]Glad to hear your injuries are not as serious as they could've been...QUOTE]


There are always isues with group rides and the spacing of its riders... 2 seconds might be too close, but some bonehead in a cage will STILL try and force their way in! 3 seconds seems a bit long and probably invites even more intruders into the line... It's just my own opinion, but I'd rather see many groups of fewer riders gapped out over several miles... Bandits seem kess likely to jump into the midst of a smaller group of riders...
(Off the soapbox and back in line now...)

[ARtraveler]

RE: Group riding. At Last Frontier MCC we ride in staggerd formation (left side of center, right side of center--no two by two riding), two second intervals, close up the formation at stops, and in groups of no more than 8-10 in a pack. We feel the interval does not invite cars to pull into the pack. However, we still get the occasional cager who wants in--we let them since they are bigger than we are, and in most cases they just want to access an off ramp.

Some additional information a day later. The above group has been in operation for 13 years. I have ridden with them for 10 years. We average over 20 organized rides a year. In over 200 rides, we have never had an accident or incident where anyone crashed into another bike or vehicle. We practice stringent safety regulations. There is an experienced leader and a sweep for each pack. Communication between the two insures that we are aware of all the members in the pack. No one is allowed to ride with us unless they have proved they are capable riders. We have a beginner pack (meaning new to group riding)--of which I am the leader. All newbies must ride with the beginner pack until we determine they are ready for a faster group. The newbie group rides slower than the rest of the pack--which rides limit + 5 max. Our club offers training sessions on group riding. Newbies are briefed and bikes are inspected for safety issues before each ride. I have also ridden with newbies on unorganized rides to give them training in group riding--so they are more comfortable with group riding.

[wyliec]

I see no reason to report to the NHTSA until a determination of whether there was a malfunction of any of the systems.

There may never be a determination. After tjfischer had the first (or maybe the first accident) where someone was hurt, I don't remember seeing any determination of what caused that accident. Like HDX said, if he is so inclined..............

[Desert Spyder]

Well Wayne (spydervet6) asked me pull his stuff off the bike after work today and while doing so I inspected the right front side. Unfortunately I had no flashlight with me to get a clearer view but clearly there was a catastrophic failure of the top mounting bolt/bracket on the right side. I saw no bolt holding the top of the shock. Whether this is what caused the accident or it happened during or after the accident is anybody's guess. But Wayne did describe a sudden drop of the right front immediately prior to the accident and most certainly the suspension failure could have caused this. When I first came up to the byke the right front was noticeably lower than the left and the bottom of the tire was significantly toed inside. The steering was still operational power on and power off with no error messages displayed. So the first unofficial explanation was suspension failure on the right side.

All I can say is Wayne is a lucky guy because he was only going 10 mph or so at the time. If this would have happened on the freeway at 70+ mph the results would have been disastrous.


Wayne and Sue are on the mends but in an unrelated accident that I believe I mentioned in an earlier post to this thread, a Blacksheep MC member was critically injured while enroute to the same destination as us. The rider just ahead of the injured party was trying to get to the shoulder of the road because of mechanical problems and the guy behind him struck him. He was flown out and has multiple skull fractures with bleeding around the brain. Not good. His name is Herb and his wifes name is Kim if you wish to say a prayer for them.

Our discussion on spacing between bikes certainly should be noted. I'm assuming the club was in a staggered formation. The bike in front may have slowed down suddenly (like we do going into Limp Mode) and there wasn't enough room and/or time to react safely.

Everybody, go check your shock bolts now.

[OldDog]

Am i correct in reading that BRP has been notified of this accident and will
acquire the Spyder for failure analyses?

[NancysToy]

Our discussion on spacing between bikes certainly should be noted. I'm assuming the club was in a staggered formation. The bike in front may have slowed down suddenly (like we do going into Limp Mode) and there wasn't enough room and/or time to react safely.

Thanks for the update. Continued prayers go out for Wayne and Sue, and also Herb and Kim.

I wouldn't assume that the group was in staggered formation. Many around here ride double file. It has caused a number of injuries or deaths, when a bike in the group has either swerved or slowed. Either way, this is a good lesson that a rider needs to be extra attentive during a group ride, and always maintain a sufficient interval to stop or take avoidance action. A rider with problems should signal, but that is not always safe or possible. It is the following rider's responsibility to avoid a collision.

[bone crusher]

Wayne and Sue are on the mends but in an unrelated accident that I believe I mentioned in an earlier post to this thread, a Blacksheep MC member was critically injured while enroute to the same destination as us. The rider just ahead of the injured party was trying to get to the shoulder of the road because of mechanical problems and the guy behind him struck him. He was flown out and has multiple skull fractures with bleeding around the brain. Not good. His name is Herb and his wifes name is Kim if you wish to say a prayer for them.

.

Wow...that's horrible...I'll assume that the person was not wearing a full face shield?

[Desert Spyder]

Am i correct in reading that BRP has been notified of this accident and will
acquire the Spyder for failure analyses?

I have no confirmation that BRP has been notified however they do read the major forums. Maybe Lamont knows.

[Desert Spyder]

Wow...that's horrible...I'll assume that the person was not wearing a full face shield?

I'm not sure what head/face protection he was wearing. The Blacksheep MC is a Christian Harley Davidson club. Most people I've seen on a Harley wear 1/2 helmets which offers very little protection, which could propel another discussion.