500cc Spyder

[Pogo]

Hi all.

My Spyder has started it's running on one cylinder trick again. Last time it did this, we replaced the 'Y' pipe gaskets (with Honda ones, thanks Ken), and the problem went away.

The Honda ones were presumably junked with a few hundred km on them after the motor seized before Christmas, and standard gaskets fitted, which have failed in about 5000km.

I'd like to know why the Spyder runs on one pot when there is an air leak upstream of the O2 sensor.

My thinking is that this would make the ECM run the motor rich, but surely not so rich that one pot would not fire? Also, I note that it doesn't smell rich to me.

Can anyone help clarify this for me?

[boborgera]

Hi all.

My Spyder has started it's running on one cylinder trick again. Last time it did this, we replaced the 'Y' pipe gaskets (with Honda ones, thanks Ken), and the problem went away.

The Honda ones were presumably junked with a few hundred km on them after the motor seized before Christmas, and standard gaskets fitted, which have failed in about 5000km.

I'd like to know why the Spyder runs on one pot when there is an air leak upstream of the O2 sensor.

My thinking is that this would make the ECM run the motor rich, but surely not so rich that one pot would not fire? Also, I note that it doesn't smell rich to me.

Can anyone help clarify this for me?

Could be that the ECM is is ready to crash, My 08 GS was doing the same thing[no air leak] I was lucky to get it home. It didn't even have enough power to to get up a ramp on to my trailer. Had to push it up! Towed it 80 miles to my dealer,Over a week ago, He worked on it right away, but The ECM is on back order, might be in by the end of July.
Also my exhaust was black with soot.

[Pogo]

Could be that the ECM is is ready to crash, My 08 GS was doing the same thing[no air leak] I was lucky to get it home. It didn't even have enough power to to get up a ramp on to my trailer. Had to push it up! Towed it 80 miles to my dealer,Over a week ago, He worked on it right away, but The ECM is on back order, might be in by the end of July.
Also my exhaust was black with soot.

Thanks for the cheery thoughts. I'm sorry to hear that you are in back-order limbo. I hope that they come good soon (especially if I need one too).

[SpyderWolf]

Please let us know what your dealer finds out the problem is.

What will be even more interesting is to see if the same part is required for repair will it be back ordered in Australia as well.

[krb1945]

If your spyder is indeed eating the Y gaskets I would suspect the clamps are loosening up. I check the torque on these clamps everytime I change the oil and filters. I find they are always a little loose. Probably the heating and cooling effect. See if you can find a "wider" version of the same clamp at one of your "nut and bolt shops". A wide heavy duty version of this same clamp doesn't stretch as much as these thin light weight narrow ones that are installed by the factory/dealers. Now in saying this be sure and use the same amount of torque. Just because you use a heavy duty clamp "do not" use more torque on the clamp. "Y" Exhaust pipe upper gasket band Torque "159 INCH Lbs" "Y" Exhaust pipe lower gasket band Torque "24 FOOT LBS"


As soon as I get back to "home base" in Florida I'm going to send you a new set of the honda gaskets because they don't go bad in just a few hundred miles even if your miles are in kilometers. Now tell me that isn't funny. Have a great week and ride 'em safely. Ken krb1945

Forgot one thing... doesn't running rich make the engine, not motor... motors are electric, I could not stand it... I had to put that in there... run cooler and sluggish and if it is running cooler and sluggish it shouldn't be burning out the gaskets... only loose clamps would burn them out when running normal. Is this a correct thought or am I all wet? Ken krb1945

[Pogo]

...
As soon as I get back to "home base" in Florida I'm going to send you a new set of the honda gaskets because they don't go bad in just a few hundred miles even if your miles are in kilometers. Now tell me that isn't funny. Have a great week and ride 'em safely. Ken krb1945

Thanks Ken. I was going to order a couple of sets from you to get me going after the warranty ends in November. PM me when you get back, and I'll get you to make up a pack with some oil change bits as well.

Yeah, 5000km is a bit short for an item that has a 20000km service interval, but there might be extenuating circumstances. The left mounted foot brake on my Spyder makes it hard to get to the clamp, so they rotated it. It might not have been torqued properly. I'll see what I can find out.

Forgot one thing... doesn't running rich make the engine, not motor... motors are electric, I could not stand it... I had to put that in there... run cooler and sluggish and if it is running cooler and sluggish it shouldn't be burning out the gaskets... only loose clamps would burn them out when running normal. Is this a correct thought or am I all wet? Ken krb1945

Yep, kinda like what I was wondering. If I mess with a feedback loop (which I do for a living), it should try to undo what I mess up. In this case, if a leaking gasket adds oxygen to the exhaust, then the loop should add fuel, making the mix rich. There's somethin' scwewy about this enginebike ...

Cheers;

Pogo.

[boborgera]

Forgot one thing... doesn't running rich make the engine, not motor... motors are electric, I could not stand it... Ken krb1945

I guess from now i'll have to start calling My Motocyle a
Enginecyle.

[NancysToy]

with your assessment that your dealer missed the mark. Your situation needs further analysis. An air leak upstream of the sensor would trigger an overly rich condition if there is a large enough leak and enough vacuum for the leak to pull air into the pipe. If the gas velocity was insufficient to cause a vacuum and pull air into the pipe, or if the leak was huge, the sensor might not have much exhaust passing by it, and the accumulating gases could cause it to go lean on the mixture. This seems unlikely. Small exhaust leaks usually have little effect on the mixture, IMO.

In addition, a single O2 sensor in a combined pipe will not cause only one cylinder to go either rich or lean, it will affect both cylinders. Even if the leak is only in one of the cylinder's exhaust pipe, this is true, since the sensor reads the combined exhaust gas. It takes separate O2 sensors in separate pipes to affect a single cylinder or bank.

There are a lot of variables here, including the condition of the ignition system, the injector condition, and whether or not you have any mods. Tough to diagnose remotely, but they have jumped to conclusions, and they need to look a little further. What caused the previous engine seizing problem? If they did not isolate the cause, it could still be affecting your engine.

[Pogo]

with your assessment that your dealer missed the mark. Your situation needs further analysis. An air leak upstream of the sensor would trigger an overly rich condition if there is a large enough leak and enough vacuum for the leak to pull air into the pipe. If the gas velocity was insufficient to cause a vacuum and pull air into the pipe, or if the leak was huge, the sensor might not have much exhaust passing by it, and the accumulating gases could cause it to go lean on the mixture. This seems unlikely. Small exhaust leaks usually have little effect on the mixture, IMO.

The first time this happened, the mechanic commented on the noise of the exhaust (I thought that it was just getting a nice burble), and so went looking for an exhaust leak.

The next time was right after the rebuild, and I assumed that the gaskets had been damaged. I had bought some Honda gaskets the first time (because there was a six week back order queue for the standard parts). I read in another thread recently that the Honda parts are a bit tricky to fit, so they might have been damaged. They were replaced with genuine parts.

In addition, a single O2 sensor in a combined pipe will not cause only one cylinder to go either rich or lean, it will affect both cylinders. Even if the leak is only in one of the cylinder's exhaust pipe, this is true, since the sensor reads the combined exhaust gas. It takes separate O2 sensors in separate pipes to affect a single cylinder or bank.

There are a lot of variables here, including the condition of the ignition system, the injector condition, and whether or not you have any mods. Tough to diagnose remotely, but they have jumped to conclusions, and they need to look a little further.

Yes, BUT... Every time they replace the Y pipe gaskets, the problem goes away.

What caused the previous engine seizing problem? If they did not isolate the cause, it could still be affecting your engine.

Another kinda mystery, NancysToy. The story that I took away was that a tooth was broken on second gear, and that debris from this got caught in an oil gallery and starved the motor.

I was brought up to believe that that was the kind of thing that oil filters were meant to prevent. I suppose if there was a *lot* of debris, then the filter would have been blocked, and the bypass operated.

It happened soon (like about 1000km) after the 20000km service, and there was no mention of debris in the reservoir gauze or in the oil in the service report.

It was unusual enough for a visiting engineer from Can Am to take pics of the internals.

My concern with the current blipper malfunction is that not matching the engine speed to the wheel speed on downshifts could have caused the broken gear tooth, so it might have been a long standing problem, and it might well happen again before we get a fix.

[NancysToy]

I think you have a combination of problems. It sounds like you have a weak ignition (bad plug wire?) or some other weakness on one cylinder, like maybe low compression from the crud that went through your engine before. When the Y-gaskets go, in combination with any modifications and whatever weakness there is, the cylinder that is weak is unable to keep running, since it was already only running under marginal conditions. It will take a good technician, or your tech working closely with Kurt or another BRP tech wizard, to root out the real answer. Right now it sounds like you are repeatedly sticking Band-Aids on a deep wound.

[Pogo]

I think you have a combination of problems. It sounds like you have a weak ignition (bad plug wire?) or some other weakness on one cylinder, like maybe low compression from the crud that went through your engine before. When the Y-gaskets go, in combination with any modifications and whatever weakness there is, the cylinder that is weak is unable to keep running, since it was already only running under marginal conditions. It will take a good technician, or your tech working closely with Kurt or another BRP tech wizard, to root out the real answer. Right now it sounds like you are repeatedly sticking Band-Aids on a deep wound.

It's funny how ideas come together. I picked her up this afternoon, and within a couple of kilometres the misfire was back. This time I had time, so I turned back and was able to demonstrate the problem.

No codes showed up on the BUDS, just the engine running mostly on one pot.

My mechanic is reasonably cluey, and said that it would be the front cylinder that was missing, and that new plugs would fix it. He was right both times.

So, if there were a weak spark, then new plugs would help and the motor would run.

I can take that idea, swap the coils and wait. When the plugs start to wear, if the back pot goes out, then it's new coil time. If the front pot goes out, then it's new leads and boots time. And then wait, because it might be the ECU...