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Can Am - Great Ideas vs. Poor Execution. What are your thoughts?
Does anyone else think that Can Am has the smartest ideas in motorcycling? And then wrecks them with poor execution and poorer dealers?
Chip
2020 RTL
"Stella by Starlight"
UltraGard Full Cover, Front & Rear Cup Holders, Elka Stage 2 Rear Shock, TC & Dave Signal Button, Spyder Extras Sway Bar
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When I was working in the heavy truck building industry I saw a lot of great ideas over the years and most of them never were implemented or were implemented poorly. Why? Money. EVERYTHING you buy is built to a price point, especially a vehicle. Can Am is perfectly capable of building a Spyder with the best tires, suspension, sound system, etc, etc. Are you capable of paying twice the price for one? Engineers have some great ideas, but the bean counters get the last word.
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As Peter Aawen stated in another post the safety police (BRP lawyers ) have these machines so coddled it's pathetic to a true biker like myself, If the Can Am side by sides and off road machines can have 200 + HP why can't we.
Oh I know, because we all can ride and those that never have would kill themselves before they even got the machine home.
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Originally Posted by Navydad
When I was working in the heavy truck building industry I saw a lot of great ideas over the years and most of them never were implemented or were implemented poorly. Why? Money. EVERYTHING you buy is built to a price point, especially a vehicle. Can Am is perfectly capable of building a Spyder with the best tires, suspension, sound system, etc, etc. Are you capable of paying twice the price for one? Engineers have some great ideas, but the bean counters get the last word.
Navydad, I agree in every respect. Because of my own background, I can see where the BRP engineers cut corners to hold down the price. And it was necessary because if they couldn't undersell Brand H they wouldn't sell at all. Despite having a superior product. None of this keeps me from getting steamed up when I have to take all the plastic off the left side of the cycle bec. the mechanic couldn't be bothered to put Loctite on the ACS bolt on the swingarm.
Chip
2020 RTL
"Stella by Starlight"
UltraGard Full Cover, Front & Rear Cup Holders, Elka Stage 2 Rear Shock, TC & Dave Signal Button, Spyder Extras Sway Bar
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Originally Posted by SLICE
As Peter Aawen stated in another post the safety police (BRP lawyers ) have these machines so coddled it's pathetic to a true biker like myself, If the Can Am side by sides and off road machines can have 200 + HP why can't we.
Oh I know, because we all can ride and those that never have would kill themselves before they even got the machine home.
I think that an ECU reflash will restore some of the missing pep. At the expense of always requiring premium fuel. Besides, my wife and I are a couple of real Heck's Angels who find 115 HP more than adequate.
Chip
2020 RTL
"Stella by Starlight"
UltraGard Full Cover, Front & Rear Cup Holders, Elka Stage 2 Rear Shock, TC & Dave Signal Button, Spyder Extras Sway Bar
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Very Active Member
From somebody that rode a homebuilt Harley Sportster trike for about 25 years, because nobody was mass producing a decent trike, I find the Spyders to be fairly well designed, have adequate power, and excellent handling for a a trike. They are a bit over complicated, but so is everything else that has to comply with government regulations these days. If some one (dealer or aftermarket) will just keep the repair parts available for a number of years, I can live with the dealership problems. Mine never been back since I picked it up, in 2019.
Don't see anything better becoming available any time soon either.
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Always felt the BRP spyder dealer network would ultimately be their undoing. One other observation. In all my travels on my spyder or in my car, I may only see another spyder once a month, if that. However, I see two wheelers of all kinds multiple times a day, every day. They are everywhere. The bottom line, spyders are way overpriced and BRP knows it. There are a ton of new high power/quality two wheelers out there on the market for $10k and less. So unless you are an aging geezer or just can't ride a bicycle why would you buy a spyder? I certainly wouldn't, but then, I'm one of those aging geezers with bad knees, hips, shoulders, and so on. LOL
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Seeing as how BRP has the reverse trike market cornered, they really have no incentive to build Spyders to what Spyders can and truly would be if there were serious competition, say Honda for example. If/when they ever build a reverse trike based on the Gold Wing engine and architecture, BRP will be in serious trouble. I would most likely buy one, if for no other reason than their extensive parts and dealer network. but also the reputation that Honda has for their products being "Bulletproof". I for one would take a really hard look at one before I bought another Spyder. And yes, the BRP dealer network by and large is pretty sucky and geographically thin, there are some pretty good ones out there. When I lived in Connecticut, there were three dealers within a short ride from where I lived. The one I bought my 2013 RTL from was a small family business, the owner of which was a BRP Master Tech. He knew Spyders inside and out, you could get an appointment in a reasonable amount of time, and he didn't keep your bikes for week at a time. They closed their doors in 2016. Another was substandard, to say the least, and they really only wanted to sell Spyders, not service them. The third one was so bad that BRP took Spyders, Sea-Doos, and Ski-Doos away from them, although they continue to sell off roads. Regardless of the fact that Spyders are finicky, can be difficult to work on, hard to get serviced, and are stupid expensive, we keep buying them since they are the only game in town. So for now, BRP pretty much has us in a box that for now we can't get out of.
"A Wise Man Once Said, I Should Ask My Wife."
2017 Champagne Metallic RT-S SE-6 Rivco Dual Flag Holders; Slingmods Highway Pegs; (Hate Them) Airhawk Seat Cushion; Show Chrome Black Touring Rack w/ Risers & Touring Windshield; RAM X Mount For TXTAG; TackForm Phone Mount; Lidlox; Magic Mirror Mounts; Guardian Bells; WOLO "Bad Boy" Air Horn; Dual USB Power Outlet With Voltmeter; 12V outlet for misc. stuff; Spyderpops Full View Mirror Turn Signals; Large Brake Pedal; Kott Grilles; Large Mud Flap; BajaRon 3 Piece Sway Bar, Last But Not Least, Kuhmo Rear Rire, Vedrestien Fronts.
2017 RT-S , Brake pedal extender is twice the size of the stock pedal. Champagne Metallic
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Mostly great ideas. Definitely sketchy implementation. Reasons provided above explain it well. I'm not going to go into economic theory(s).
2015 ST Limited; Givi E52 Top Case; Baja Ron anti-sway bar; Cal Sci wind screen; Vredestein Quatracs (Front).
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Either you believe the free market system produces the best product at the lowest price, or you don't. Engineers, marketers, accountants and lawyers are just playing their respective roles in that system. No villains to see here folks.
2014 RTL Platinum
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I said it before and I will say it again.
Don't blame BRP, blame the government.
Anyone remember 427 tri carb, four speed Corvettes , dual four barrel 426 hemi's.
Then the feds gat involved and you got a 180 hp 350 Corvette and no hemi's.
If someone wants a 200hp Ryker, build it.
Find a wrecked Maverick and go from there.
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Originally Posted by Raven
I said it before and I will say it again.
Don't blame BRP, blame the government.
Anyone remember 427 tri carb, four speed Corvettes , dual four barrel 426 hemi's.
Then the feds gat involved and you got a 180 hp 350 Corvette and no hemi's.
If someone wants a 200hp Ryker, build it.
Find a wrecked Maverick and go from there.
What law or regulation caused that to happen?
2014 RTL Platinum
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Originally Posted by chipveres
... I can see where the BRP engineers cut corners to hold down the price.
Name 2 instances of "engineers cutting corners to hold down the price".
I don't think engineers do that. I think they design the optimum solution and then accounting costs that out, and Marketing figures out what the final machine will sell for. If the C-suite demands a greater gross profit margin, then it's back to engineering to figure out where they can use an acceptable alternative solution without compromising safety, performance or marketability.
I'd say they did a pretty good job of it. Which is why we 'love' our Spyders, right?
The dealer service after the sale is the problem, not incompetent dastardly engineers.
Last edited by UtahPete; 05-29-2023 at 10:42 PM.
2014 RTL Platinum
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Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 05-29-2023 at 08:19 PM.
2013 RT Ltd Pearl White
Ryde More, Worry Less!
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The only ones who can afford to accept no compromises in a machine, it seems, is the US military, and that comes at a horrendous monetary cost. Have you priced a Patriot missile lately?
2014 RTL Platinum
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Originally Posted by UtahPete
The only ones who can afford to accept no compromises in a machine, it seems, is the US military, and that comes at a horrendous monetary cost. Have you priced a Patriot missile lately?
I tried to order one, but Amazon website says "Not Currently In Stock"....................
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Originally Posted by oldguyinTX
Seeing as how BRP has the reverse trike market cornered, they really have no incentive to build Spyders to what Spyders can and truly would be if there were serious competition, say Honda for example. If/when they ever build a reverse trike based on the Gold Wing engine and architecture, BRP will be in serious trouble.
It's an aftermarket add-on, but it's available.
https://thekneeslider.com/r18-revers...l1800-and-f6b/
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HER ride:
2017 RT-S SE6 Pearl White
My rides:
2000 Honda GL1500SE
1980 Suzuki GS850G
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Originally Posted by UtahPete
What law or regulation caused that to happen?
Uh, maybe emissions requirements, which throttle horsepower, mileage requirements, which also throttle horsepower. Those good 'ole GM V8's & Mopar Hemi's sucked gas like crazy, and 5,00 pound land yachts got maybe 8-10 mpg going downhill with a tailwind. But hey, who cared? There were no emissions regulations, no CAFE regulations, and gas was stupid cheap. Getting the picture?
"A Wise Man Once Said, I Should Ask My Wife."
2017 Champagne Metallic RT-S SE-6 Rivco Dual Flag Holders; Slingmods Highway Pegs; (Hate Them) Airhawk Seat Cushion; Show Chrome Black Touring Rack w/ Risers & Touring Windshield; RAM X Mount For TXTAG; TackForm Phone Mount; Lidlox; Magic Mirror Mounts; Guardian Bells; WOLO "Bad Boy" Air Horn; Dual USB Power Outlet With Voltmeter; 12V outlet for misc. stuff; Spyderpops Full View Mirror Turn Signals; Large Brake Pedal; Kott Grilles; Large Mud Flap; BajaRon 3 Piece Sway Bar, Last But Not Least, Kuhmo Rear Rire, Vedrestien Fronts.
2017 RT-S , Brake pedal extender is twice the size of the stock pedal. Champagne Metallic
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by Steve W.
Yeah, that one and some others are out there, but stupid expensive. And who warranties what? What about dealer support? Not that BRP is great in that department. Just my opinion, but a ground up design beats a conversion kit.
"A Wise Man Once Said, I Should Ask My Wife."
2017 Champagne Metallic RT-S SE-6 Rivco Dual Flag Holders; Slingmods Highway Pegs; (Hate Them) Airhawk Seat Cushion; Show Chrome Black Touring Rack w/ Risers & Touring Windshield; RAM X Mount For TXTAG; TackForm Phone Mount; Lidlox; Magic Mirror Mounts; Guardian Bells; WOLO "Bad Boy" Air Horn; Dual USB Power Outlet With Voltmeter; 12V outlet for misc. stuff; Spyderpops Full View Mirror Turn Signals; Large Brake Pedal; Kott Grilles; Large Mud Flap; BajaRon 3 Piece Sway Bar, Last But Not Least, Kuhmo Rear Rire, Vedrestien Fronts.
2017 RT-S , Brake pedal extender is twice the size of the stock pedal. Champagne Metallic
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Originally Posted by oldguyinTX
Uh, maybe emissions requirements, which throttle horsepower, mileage requirements, which also throttle horsepower. Those good 'ole GM V8's & Mopar Hemi's sucked gas like crazy, and 5,00 pound land yachts got maybe 8-10 mpg going downhill with a tailwind. But hey, who cared? There were no emissions regulations, no CAFE regulations, and gas was stupid cheap. Getting the picture?
Yeah, I get the picture. When you don't understand why industry isn't producing the outdated product you lust after, blame government regulations.
2014 RTL Platinum
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Originally Posted by UtahPete
Name 2 instances of "engineers cutting corners to hold down the price".
I don't think engineers do that. I think they design the optimum solution and then accounting costs that out, and Marketing figures out what the final machine will sell for. If the C-suite demands a greater gross profit margin, then it's back to engineering to figure out where they can use an acceptable alternative solution without compromising safety, performance or marketability.
I'd say they did a pretty good job of it. Which is why we 'love' our Spyders, right?
The dealer service after the sale is the problem, not incompetent dastardly engineers.
In addition to what Peter Aawen already posted, plastic sway bar links? You have got to be kidding me.
Chip
2020 RTL
"Stella by Starlight"
UltraGard Full Cover, Front & Rear Cup Holders, Elka Stage 2 Rear Shock, TC & Dave Signal Button, Spyder Extras Sway Bar
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Originally Posted by chipveres
In addition to what Peter Aawen already posted, plastic sway bar links? You have got to be kidding me.
Have they failed? Are they causing issues? Why is this "engineers cutting corners to save money"?
2014 RTL Platinum
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