Epiphany No7 - balance wheels with TPMS fitted

[askitee]

I undertook a 1500km ride over the last 3 days and decided to remove my TPMS sensors from the front wheels for the trip. I had a hunch they made some impact, but I had never insisted the wheels/tyres be balanced with the sensors fitted based on a comment by one tyre fitter, but will never ever make that mistake again.

I was stunned at how big a difference it made to vibration. As soon as my "fav" local tyre shop come back from holidays he has a job to re-balance the wheels/tyres with the sensors fitted.

After being on the hunt to get rid of as much vibration as possible I think I am finally at Nirvana.

[EdMat]

What TPMS are you using?

[askitee]

What TPMS are you using?

Sykik

[MONK]

Speaking of TPMS, has anybody ever tried an in wheel ("real") TPMS system instead of the usual aftermarket screw on cap style? I currently have a FOBO 2 (which works very well) but I'm going to change front tires in the spring which would be a great time to swap the front to an in wheel system.

[Possible]

Why? What does the in-wheel system do better than the cap type? Except be harder to service.

My TPMS cap-type system has worked without any issues for over 7 years on my toyhauler. And it's a snap to change
the batteries when necessary.

[EdMat]

Sykik

Those sensors seem to be pretty heavy so it might be best to have them in place when balancing. Good catch.

[Peter Aawen]

Why? What does the in-wheel system do better than the cap type? Except be harder to service.

My TPMS cap-type system has worked without any issues for over 7 years on my toyhauler. And it's a snap to change
the batteries when necessary.

There is that, but then, the cap style jobbies have been known to provide spurious signals due to their exposure to the sun &/or wind; they can flop around on the valve stem, sometimes being damaged in the process and occasionally even being ripped off; they are far more exposed to damage in general, just thru use & the weather they get to operate in; they are far more exposed to environmental temp variations & road hazards etc; if they are over tightened during any removal/change air pressure/replacement process, they can jam their internal rubber seal so far down into the valve stem that from there on in they will only return temp & pressure readings that reflects whatever's going on IN the valve stem itself, which might or might not have little to do with anything that's going on inside the tire re temp & pressure..... and there's a whole bunch more besides!! Been there, done that, tested many, many different makes of valve cap mounted TPMS sensors, and so far, they've ALL eventually exhibited one or more of these issues &/or failures!!

At best, the externally mounted valve cap style TPMS senders are pale imitations of the internally mounted jobbies, imitations that might sometimes work OK; while the internally mounted units usually outlast the cap style units by a significant factor (I'm still using one set I purchased in the late 1990's!!) they'll usually outlast a tire between any necessary servicing; they are rarely bothered by any addition/release of pressure from inside the tire; they are well protected from external environmental changes &/or hazards; and overall, they are far more reliable & consistently 'accurate' than the cap type jobbies.....

That said, the valve cap jobbies are certainly better than nothing - most of the time!! But while you may have been lucky (so far! ) Possible, I wouldn't recommend that you trust them exclusively to always tell you what you should know & need to know about what's happening inside your tires... in fact, I don't!! I run internally mounted sensors on my own Spyder wheels, but I do use the valve cap jobbies whenever I'm running a set of 'loaners' &/or test rims & tires and I STILL check my tire pressures with a known reliable tire pressure gauge before I fit them; and if the TPMS starts telling me the tire's temp &/or pressure is acting up or varying beyond what I've come to expect, then I confirm that change with my 'known reliable' instruments before getting too carried away - and funnily enough, more often than not, it's likely to be a 'cap sensor' issue or failure rather than a 'real problem'!! And yet with the internally mounted sensors (well, since the early days of running the internal TPMS sensors when there were a few 'initial set-up' issues anyway) I just don't EVER get them!

A TPM System & either style of sensor are part of the latest & greatest range of Handy tools that can improve our ryding safety, but they're still just tools - and the cap style sensors are fairly 'cheap' tools at that! The good quality internally mounted sensors are a much better quality tool that not only does the job better, but they usually last longer, work longer, work better, and often provide you with a bunch more & better info too! But I'll still use the cap style sensors whenever circumstances makes that the easiest option to save me having to crawl around on the ground checking tire pressures!

[Possible]

Sorry, I simply and totally disagree. It's very possible that the cheapest TPMS cap sensors have issues, but a good quality set, I have the TST
system, will simply work as it should with no issues. Visit any RV forum, and you'll find no issues with most of the major cap mounted sensor type
TPMS.

As far as trouble with the valve stem, yes, the sensor should absolutely be mounted on a solid valve stem. Using them on a rubber/flexible valve
stem can lead to problems. But other than that, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Peteoz]

Sorry, I simply and totally disagree. It's very possible that the cheapest TPMS cap sensors have issues, but a good quality set, I have the TST system, will simply work as it should with no issues. Visit any RV forum, and you'll find no issues with most of the major cap mounted sensor type TPMS.
As far as trouble with the valve stem, yes, the sensor should absolutely be mounted on a solid valve stem. Using them on a rubber/flexible valve
stem can lead to problems. But other than that, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Not sure what you are “simply and totally” disagreeing with, Possible . All Peter was pointing out were some possible failure points in the external vs internal systems, as per a prior question, and that he had first hand experience trying quite a few and they had all failed. There really isn’t anything there to “totally disagree” with.

Re your statement that “the sensor should absolutely be mounted on a solid tyre stem. Using them on a flexible valve can lead to problems”,
I would like to comment that I and at least 4 mates are running our sensors on rubber tyre stems, and have been for at least 5 years, and none of us have experienced any kind of problem

Pete

[Possible]

This statement is what I totally disagreed with:

"Been there, done that, tested many, many different makes of valve cap mounted TPMS sensors, and so far, they've ALL eventually exhibited one or more of these issues &/or failures!!"

Many more RV owners/users than Spyder or motorcycle owners have TPMS mounted with few issues such as described. IME the cap mounted TPMS is a very reliable setup, with few
of the issues that Peter has asserted will, not may, but will, occur with a cap mounted TPMS. It's obvious that he dislikes them, while they are almost universally praised by the RV crowd.

As I said, we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

[Possible]

Not sure what you are “simply and totally” disagreeing with, Possible . All Peter was pointing out were some possible failure points in the external vs internal systems, as per a prior question, and that he had first hand experience trying quite a few and they had all failed. There really isn’t anything there to “totally disagree” with.

Re your statement that “the sensor should absolutely be mounted on a solid tyre stem. Using them on a flexible valve can lead to problems”,
I would like to comment that I and at least 4 mates are running our sensors on rubber tyre stems, and have been for at least 5 years, and none of us have experienced any kind of problem

Pete

I was mainly referring to auto/truck tire valve stems. The stems on the Spyder tires tend to be shorter and probably less of an issue than
the longer valve stems used in large truck and RV tires. The sensors on those valve stems can cause serious flex issues unless you're using
a solid valve stem.

[2dogs]

Crowding 50k with 3 FOBO's on my spyder. No issues yet.

[askitee]

There is that, but then, the cap style jobbies have been known to provide spurious signals due to their exposure to the sun &/or wind; they can flop around on the valve stem, sometimes being damaged in the process and occasionally even being ripped off; they are far more exposed to damage in general, just thru use & the weather they get to operate in; they are far more exposed to environmental temp variations & road hazards etc; if they are over tightened during any removal/change air pressure/replacement process, they can jam their internal rubber seal so far down into the valve stem that from there on in they will only return temp & pressure readings that reflects whatever's going on IN the valve stem itself, which might or might not have little to do with anything that's going ......

Cant say I've encountered any of the issues you refer to here. The TPMS on our cars are close to 6 yrs old and have not missed a beat, and are fitted to rubber valve stems. What brands did you try, for how long and under what conditions?

My only gripe with mine is that the new valve stems fitted at my last tyre change have the valve seated lower in the stem, preventing the plunger from pushing the valve head down to allow it to pressurize the TPMS

I did see a few people comment on them getting damaged on 4wd's mainly due to mud running/rocks and the like which is understandable.

[Peter Aawen]

...... What brands did you try, for how long and under what conditions?

....

IIRC askitee, when I was one of the drivers involved in specifically testing these things, there were about 30 'different brands' (or at least 'offerings', some could've been the same basic product but with different stickers etc); they were all tested under 'normal road conditions' (however, those conditions were on a test track & 'manufactured & controlled' to replicate 'normal road use' in a way that covered just about everything you'd 'normally' expect to encounter out there on the roads in Oz, albeit in a fairly controlled & concentrated way, but there was certainly nothing untoward involved.... ) and each 'set' was tested to failure....

And since then, I've also used quite a few other sets on a variety of vehicles in a wide range of conditions; sets with different names, labels, &/or brands on them - and in my experience, the valve cap mounted sensors are all far more prone to issues &/or failure than the internally mounted jobbies that are protected from most of the conditions & hazards that eventually contribute to those failures &/or spurious readings. There's some fairly clear reasons to sorta expect that result tho - lightweight & relatively cheap valve cap sized units packed with a battery & electronics that are exposed to wide range of envirònmental conditions & hazards vs better sealed units that are more robustly built and mounted AND THEN better protected and shielded from almost all of those adverse conditions & hazards the valve cap jobbies are exposed to?! It's not hard to see why one type tends to work better/last longer than the other, even if there are a few people/outliers out there that might be lucky enough to get a set that lasts a bit longer...

But once again, as I said earlier, whatever type of TPMS you use, they are just one more HANDY TOOL; and the valve cap jobbies are still gonna be better than nothing - just don't necessarily believe that they are always telling you truly what's going on in your tires!

[PMK]

IIRC askitee, when I was one of the drivers involved in specifically testing these things, there were about 30 'different brands' (or at least 'offerings', some could've been the same basic product but with different stickers etc); they were all tested under 'normal road conditions' (however, those conditions were on a test track & 'manufactured & controlled' to replicate 'normal road use' in a way that covered just about everything you'd 'normally' expect to encounter out there on the roads in Oz, albeit in a fairly controlled & concentrated way, but there was certainly nothing untoward involved.... ) and each 'set' was tested to failure....

And since then, I've also used quite a few other sets on a variety of vehicles in a wide range of conditions; sets with different names, labels, &/or brands on them - and in my experience, the valve cap mounted sensors are all far more prone to issues &/or failure than the internally mounted jobbies that are protected from most of the conditions & hazards that eventually contribute to those failures &/or spurious readings. There's some fairly clear reasons to sorta expect that result tho - lightweight & relatively cheap valve cap sized units packed with a battery & electronics that are exposed to wide range of envirònmental conditions & hazards vs better sealed units that are more robustly built and mounted AND THEN better protected and shielded from almost all of those adverse conditions & hazards the valve cap jobbies are exposed to?! It's not hard to see why one type tends to work better/last longer than the other, even if there are a few people/outliers out there that might be lucky enough to get a set that lasts a bit longer...

But once again, as I said earlier, whatever type of TPMS you use, they are just one more HANDY TOOL; and the valve cap jobbies are still gonna be better than nothing - just don't necessarily believe that they are always telling you truly what's going on in your tires!

Tools they are, however, with many owners using beads or liquid sealant, an internal pressure transmitter could present greater problems than externally mounted pressure transmitters. Then again, if what you mention about mechanical failures at the valve stem exists, then it seems that rubber valve stems should be avoided.