Why would you want an asymmetrical rear tire?

[SpyderAnn01]

I run Federal Formoza tires on the front of my F3T, these have an asymmetrical tread pattern, which makes sense for front tires. But would someone please explain how an asymmetrical tread pattern is good for the rear?

I have read your reviews of the Vredestein Quatrac but I did not realize it was asymmetrical until we took one off a customer’s Spyder today. Those of you that run one which side did you mount the Inner Side to?

I would never recommend an asymmetrical tire for the rear of a Spyder.

[jcthorne]

You do NOT want an asymmetric tread tire on the rear of the Spyder. In the event of hydroplane, the forces of the water exiting the tire are not equal and will cause the tire to skid to one side rather than straight ahead. Easily causing a spin if the tire experiences hydroplane. Not a safe application at all and we would refuse to mount it. Wrong application.

This is also why we have avoided the Michelin Defender that replaced the excellent HydroEdge a few years ago. The Michelin is a great tire, just not appropriate for the Spyder rear.

[Wahrsuul]

So what do you recommend? And in what sizes?

[Mikey]

Here we go again!

[SpyderAnn01]

You do NOT want an asymmetric tread tire on the rear of the Spyder. In the event of hydroplane, the forces of the water exiting the tire are not equal and will cause the tire to skid to one side rather than straight ahead. Easily causing a spin if the tire experiences hydroplane. Not a safe application at all and we would refuse to mount it. Wrong application.

This is also why we have avoided the Michelin Defender that replaced the excellent HydroEdge a few years ago. The Michelin is a great tire, just not appropriate for the Spyder rear.

I agree. When I saw this tire yesterday I thought it had to be the wrong tire because who would recommend that.

[BoilerAnimal]

Pretty much what my local tire dealer told me when I had my rear tire replaced. I was going to go with a Cooper tire that had a asymmetric design and he explained why it was a poor choice for a rear tire. I don't know if he would have mounted it had I insisted.

That's when I decided to go with a Yokohama Avid Touring, been very happy with it. I had a couple of instances where the front Kendas floated and made me pucker to a very high degree, but the Yokohama stayed in good contact with the road.

[Highwayman2013]

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I'd run it.

[BajaRon]

I am not sure how big a deal it actually is. But I'm with JC. The Spyder is already rear wheel hydroplane prone. You don't want to add to that propensity. On 4 wheels (or, for the 2 front wheels on a Spyder/Ryker) I think they would be fine. I can just about guarantee you that the manufacturer would not recommend an asymmetrical tire on a 1 wheel application like the Spyder.

[h0gr1der]

I'm still in test pilot mode with the asymmetrical Vredestein on the back. So far I have not noticed anything unusual in normal rain, but need to find a puddle deep enough to cause a rear only hydroplane (ruts). The asymmetrical nature was very much on my mind when I received the tires, but as I had already spent the money I figured I'd run them to see. I figure if they pull during hydroplane, then the RT43 on the back with the Vredesteins on the front.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I'm still in test pilot mode with the asymmetrical Vredestein on the back. So far I have not noticed anything unusual in normal rain, but need to find a puddle deep enough to cause a rear only hydroplane (ruts). The asymmetrical nature was very much on my mind when I received the tires, but as I had already spent the money I figured I'd run them to see. I figure if they pull during hydroplane, then the RT43 on the back with the Vredesteins on the front.

I did some research a few years back, and from what I read the difference between an Asymmetrical and any other Radial tire is so small it's almost un-measurable..... it might have an effect at 200 + mph, but not in normal in normal use..... I have found that when tires are tested, whatever the tread design doesn't matter in the results..... ie. if the tire pulled 1G, it was 1G …. to me that's what counts.... jmho ….. Mike

[Peter Aawen]

At least for the 'mildly asymetrical' tires like the Vredestein Quatrac pictured...... & some of the Kumhos, Bridgestones, Continentals, & Hankooks et al that've been mostly successfully run & 'beta tested' extensively on the Spyders of many of us for tens if not hundreds of thousands of miles in all sorts of weather conditions.

The major factor in the hydroplane resistance of most tires & tread patterns is in the large circumferential channels running all the way around the tire and the rest is in how the channels between the side blocks push water out from under - and as you can see in the pic, the Vredestein Quatrac has both & uses both pretty well!

[Spyderlass]

I think the notion that if the tyre aquaplanes there may be an issue is a misunderstanding of aquaplaning. In this situation the tyre will have completely left the road surface and it will be on top of the water. For all intents, there will be almost zero drag and zero friction; imagine the bottom of the water layer being on the road and the tyre on the top of the water layer then the only grip is water on water so very little friction or drag.

Asymmetric treads are used for a number of reasons, one is; since the outer edge of the tyre carries higher load when cornering a more suitable tread pattern can be present at the outer side to better deal with that load. Secondly, the unequal drag will cause the tyre to attempt to turn and this loads up the steering so a steering input from the driver gets a faster response from the tyre, obviously two tyres are necessary for this so it plainly lends itself particularly to front wheel application. Thirdly, some asymmetric tyres actually have asymmetric construction under the tread to impart better handling and steering response.

Plainly a single asymmetric tyre is going to try to make a turn but whether this offset force will be noticeable to a rider when it is applied so close to the centreline of a bike is up for debate. Perhaps on a smooth, level surface it may be but on most road surfaces I suspect it will be lost in the forces caused by the general road surface imperfections. imho, of course.

[PMK]

I think the notion that if the tyre aquaplanes there may be an issue is a misunderstanding of aquaplaning. In this situation the tyre will have completely left the road surface and it will be on top of the water. For all intents, there will be almost zero drag and zero friction; imagine the bottom of the water layer being on the road and the tyre on the top of the water layer then the only grip is water on water so very little friction or drag.

Asymmetric treads are used for a number of reasons, one is; since the outer edge of the tyre carries higher load when cornering a more suitable tread pattern can be present at the outer side to better deal with that load. Secondly, the unequal drag will cause the tyre to attempt to turn and this loads up the steering so a steering input from the driver gets a faster response from the tyre, obviously two tyres are necessary for this so it plainly lends itself particularly to front wheel application. Thirdly, some asymmetric tyres actually have asymmetric construction under the tread to impart better handling and steering response.

Plainly a single asymmetric tyre is going to try to make a turn but whether this offset force will be noticeable to a rider when it is applied so close to the centreline of a bike is up for debate. Perhaps on a smooth, level surface it may be but on most road surfaces I suspect it will be lost in the forces caused by the general road surface imperfections. imho, of course.

Overall agree, and based on your words, would you consider the difference in performance critical for the single rear tire?

A while back, a friend purchased a new rear tire that I helped him mount and balance. The tire he purchased was labeled for placing one side of the tires tread pattern to the outside. Being a single rear tire, we obviously had one of the tires sidewalls outside as recommended, and the side that should have been inside became an outside also. Any specific thoughts beyond your post regarding this.

A very long while back, several of us here discussed these concerns. It was agreed by some of us, myself included, to utilize a tire that could be rotationally directional, but having tread symmetry that was mirrored on each side of the tires rotational centerline.

At the time, it was common to run the Yokohama s.Drive on the rear. Back then, General offered, but has since discontinued the Altimax RT HP, which had mirrored tread also. There have been a few other tire brands / models that have come and gone that also had balanced tread symmetry.

I have always been very skeptical about the use of tire tests posted here on SL. For those tests, that are fair when comparing similar intended uses against similar intended use, say touring vs touring, there is no true way to compare a touring tire against say a performance tire. A lower rated performance tire could easily outperform the best touring tire, but the test comparison numbers by say Tire Rack will not indicate this.

Add in, that many people do not understand the true meanings of the tire sidewall ratings adds further confusion. Treadwear, Traction and Temp, are not all in regards to a tire running in dry conditions. Is it better to have a treadwear value twice the average thinking you will get more miles per dollar. I suspect most high treadwear tires will be aged out before worn out, while compromising grip in dry conditions. The traction ratings, based on wet grip, are less important if you never ride in the rain.

Is tire symmetry super critical. It could be. Like anything you drive, as you push the performance envelope, you may need a higher performance tire and tread design may be a factor of that.

[jcthorne]

So what do you recommend? And in what sizes?

Yokohama S-Drive 205/55R15 or its newer replacement that is available in some areas the Advan Fleva same size and nearly identical tire.

[SpyderAnn01]

Overall agree, and based on your words, would you consider the difference in performance critical for the single rear tire?

A while back, a friend purchased a new rear tire that I helped him mount and balance. The tire he purchased was labeled for placing one side of the tires tread pattern to the outside. Being a single rear tire, we obviously had one of the tires sidewalls outside as recommended, and the side that should have been inside became an outside also. Any specific thoughts beyond your post regarding this.

A very long while back, several of us here discussed these concerns. It was agreed by some of us, myself included, to utilize a tire that could be rotationally directional, but having tread symmetry that was mirrored on each side of the tires rotational centerline.

At the time, it was common to run the Yokohama s.Drive on the rear. Back then, General offered, but has since discontinued the Altimax RT HP, which had mirrored tread also. There have been a few other tire brands / models that have come and gone that also had balanced tread symmetry.

I have always been very skeptical about the use of tire tests posted here on SL. For those tests, that are fair when comparing similar intended uses against similar intended use, say touring vs touring, there is no true way to compare a touring tire against say a performance tire. A lower rated performance tire could easily outperform the best touring tire, but the test comparison numbers by say Tire Rack will not indicate this.

Add in, that many people do not understand the true meanings of the tire sidewall ratings adds further confusion. Treadwear, Traction and Temp, are not all in regards to a tire running in dry conditions. Is it better to have a treadwear value twice the average thinking you will get more miles per dollar. I suspect most high treadwear tires will be aged out before worn out, while compromising grip in dry conditions. The traction ratings, based on wet grip, are less important if you never ride in the rain.

Is tire symmetry super critical. It could be. Like anything you drive, as you push the performance envelope, you may need a higher performance tire and tread design may be a factor of that.

Paul, the tire you mounted for your friend was an asymmetrical tire if it had an Inside and Outside label. Also, the General Altimax RT43 is readily available, the Yokohama S Drive is not.

[h0gr1der]

I'll be the first to say I'm not in the racer category. I go on simplistic terms, like how does it do in moderate rain, etc. I won't push the envelope in the rain unless it's a matter of life and death. I didn't notice much different handling with the Vredesteins in the rain compared to dry pavement, so much so that it worries me. Tires that grip this well in the rain have a tendency to let go really abruptly and more so than a tire that give you some early warning signs.

I looked at the Yokohamas, but the rollout per mile is small and will make the engine work harder. The General RT looks good as a rear.

[UtahPete]

I'll be the first to say I'm not in the racer category. I go on simplistic terms, like how does it do in moderate rain, etc. I won't push the envelope in the rain unless it's a matter of life and death. I didn't notice much different handling with the Vredesteins in the rain compared to dry pavement, so much so that it worries me. Tires that grip this well in the rain have a tendency to let go really abruptly and more so than a tire that give you some early warning signs.

I looked at the Yokohamas, but the rollout per mile is small and will make the engine work harder. The General RT looks good as a rear.

What do you mean about the Yokohama rollout per mile?

[Mikey]

At the end of the day, you can chase that needle in the hay stack all you want!! Like a person on here has said a lot, ride to live, live to ride!! I understand that you guys are trying to get the biggest and the best bang for your buck, and have the best safest set up you can get. But wear the rubber hits the road, you may say is that do any of you go out in the driving rain and run the crap out of your ride, hit every puddle like your in a Indy race?? Of course not, I would hope you all drive the conditions and keep your head screwed on straight! This is one topic that we run up the flag pole ALOT, and often come up with the same outcome! The Blueknight has the handle on this subject, and a lot of you have come to that same conclusion also! God knows is you still have any doubt search the couple thousand post on it, with a big bottle of your favorite juice and get lost in the mud! Do what works for you!! Good Luck, ride to live, live to ride

[h0gr1der]

What do you mean about the Yokohama rollout per mile?

I know each manufacturer is different as to how they measure the tires, but the specs give a little insight as to the tires. In example, Vredestein's UTGQ is 400, but that may be equivalent to some other brand rating their tires at 300, or 500. Diameter measurements are probably more exacting as published, but there are still slight differences.

Published numbers:
Vredestein- Hard to find specs on these tires. (Discounttirezone) 205/60R15- Diameter is 25.1" Circumference is 78.85", Math is 1 mile @ 63360 Inches / 78.85 (single roll out of tire) = 803 revs per mile. ± 4.6% larger than OEM.

Yokohama (Tirerack) 205/55R15- Diameter is 23.8". Circumference is 74.77". Same math yields 847 revs per mile. Minutely smaller than OEM.

Kenda has no published data that I have found.
Generic 225/55R15 Size from Tacomaworld Tire Size calculator. Diameter 23.86" Circumference is 74.95" 845 revs per mile
Tape I pulled on OEM Kenda 225/55R15. Diamaeter is 24.00" Circumference is 75.39" 840 revs per mile

So I was interested in correcting the built in speedometer error while also minimizing sizing differences between front and rear (new tires vs OEM), and couldn't get there with the same size or smaller tire. My opinion only mind you, I'm sure others will think I'm an idiot.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I know each manufacturer is different as to how they measure the tires, but the specs give a little insight as to the tires. In example, Vredestein's UTGQ is 400, but that may be equivalent to some other brand rating their tires at 300, or 500. Diameter measurements are probably more exacting as published, but there are still slight differences.

Published numbers:
Vredestein- Hard to find specs on these tires. (Discounttirezone) 205/60R15- Diameter is 25.1" Circumference is 78.85", Math is 1 mile @ 63360 Inches / 78.85 (single roll out of tire) = 803 revs per mile. ± 4.6% larger than OEM.

Yokohama (Tirerack) 205/55R15- Diameter is 23.8". Circumference is 74.77". Same math yields 847 revs per mile. Minutely smaller than OEM.

Kenda has no published data that I have found.
Generic 225/55R15 Size from Tacomaworld Tire Size calculator. Diameter 23.86" Circumference is 74.95" 845 revs per mile
Tape I pulled on OEM Kenda 225/55R15. Diamaeter is 24.00" Circumference is 75.39" 840 revs per mile

So I was interested in correcting the built in speedometer error while also minimizing sizing differences between front and rear (new tires vs OEM), and couldn't get there with the same size or smaller tire. My opinion only mind you, I'm sure others will think I'm an idiot.

Nope not an Idiot …. valid questions …. But I dis-agree on the measurements thing they All use the same math & measurements ….. I do agree on the UTOG, but this isn't really a measurement - it's more of a Value & each manufacturer uses their own system to arrive at that Brands rating.... Mike

[Haikanko]

I have the standard Kendra tyre on the back and I can say what a crap tyre it is in the wet.... anything more than light throttle in low gears will get it spinning up!!! Not cool when you have a child on the back! Cannot wait for it to wear out to replace it with a car tyre!

[Spyderlass]

... The tire he purchased was labeled for placing one side of the tires tread pattern to the outside. .... Any specific thoughts beyond your post regarding this.

I can't recall a tyre marked 'outside' that didn't also have some form of asymmetric tread pattern but I don't doubt it existed. My guess would be it had an asymmetric construction which imparted a particular characteristic so the tyre would be marked to ensure correct fitment.

A very long while back, several of us here discussed these concerns. It was agreed by some of us, myself included, to utilize a tire that could be rotationally directional, but having tread symmetry that was mirrored on each side of the tires rotational centerline.

Yep, that's my thought too. The problem as I see it using an asymmetric rear tyre is that, unless one can find the design brief and final specification, it's an unknown quantity. I prefer to keep my odds stacked for me rather than agin me.

The traction ratings, based on wet grip, are less important if you never ride in the rain.

I think that's a very important point when we discuss some topics on the forum, where a person lives and rides will have a major bearing on their choices. For that reason I won't recommend a particular tyre. Here in Scotland we frequently have three seasons in one day weather wise so I guess my preferred tyre characteristics will be very different from someone who, for instance, lives in Texas or Arizona.

This afternoon I've been riding under black clouds and torrential downpours in full wet gear, now it's 8 in the evening and this is how it is at the moment...

[UtahPete]

I think that's a very important point when we discuss some topics on the forum, where a person lives and rides will have a major bearing on their choices. For that reason I won't recommend a particular tyre. Here in Scotland we frequently have three seasons in one day weather wise so I guess my preferred tyre characteristics will be very different from someone who, for instance, lives in Texas or Arizona.

This afternoon I've been riding under black clouds and torrential downpours in full wet gear, now it's 8 in the evening and this is how it is at the moment...

I ride mostly in the dry west, but can encounter heavy rain, even snow in the mountains particularly. I want a tire that does well in the wet, even though wet riding is probably only 5% of the time. I can put on a rain suit if I have to, but I can't swap tires out for conditions.

[Spyderlass]

I ride mostly in the dry west, but can encounter heavy rain, even snow in the mountains particularly. I want a tire that does well in the wet, even though wet riding is probably only 5% of the time. I can put on a rain suit if I have to, but I can't swap tires out for conditions.

Well that's pretty much how I feel too, though our rain/sun at the mo is more like 50/50. When in the mountains of Europe this time of year and onwards snow is also possible, erm...likely.

[MeudtPG]

Hi hogrider!
When you mounted the Vredestein Quatrac 5 on your 2018 RTL rear, which side did you mount the Inner Side to?
I see the original question was asked and appears it was mounted on the right side. It probably won't matter but I am curious. Thanks