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  1. #26
    Very Active Member IGETAROUND's Avatar
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    Had not read that BRP engineering published that statement. That makes all the difference to me. BRP must love you for saying 99% of Spyders are out of spec from the factory.

    Turns out my local dealer has a laser unit.

    Ah but the question is how many have they done!!!!!

    Any mechanical procedure is refined and the error rate is reduced the more that you perform it. I want my alignment performed by a skilled and trained individual who does them on a regular basis.
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  2. #27
    Active Member 007james's Avatar
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    Default Toe in by eye?

    If the Spyder handles well, and tracks straight, yet one tire only, wears on the inside, then that appears to be Toe Out on that one wheel. Question: Any one ever try loosening the 2 nuts on the adjusting rod, and just guessing with a few turns of the rod, retightening, and watching if the tire Keeps wearing on the inside.? I now have 19,000 miles on my front Kendas, with only one wearing on the inside. I think I can get another 3-4,000 miles on it. With out doing nothing.
    To me, the Lazar cost is not worth it, considering I can buy 2 tires for the cost of the alignment by the only Dealer in my area who has a captive audience. As for my Khumo rear tire, I will be replacing it next week. It has over 14,000 miles on it, and will have more by then. I am very pleased with the Khumo, and will be replacing with the same. I have a pair of Bridgstones for the fronts.

    Quote Originally Posted by IGETAROUND View Post
    Had not read that BRP engineering published that statement. That makes all the difference to me. BRP must love you for saying 99% of Spyders are out of spec from the factory

    Turns out my local dealer has a laser unit.

    Ah but the question is how many have they done!!!!!

    Any mechanical procedure is refined and the error rate is reduced the more that you perform it. I want my alignment performed by a skilled and trained individual who does them on a regular basis.
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  3. #28
    Very Active Member SteveLaoyster's Avatar
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    Default TWO BY FOUR??!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by akspyderman View Post
    The original "factory" alignment required the use of a 2 x 4 and a ruler. And--that to fix a highly technical

    I guess your alignment this way will only be as good as the board is straight. I can think of better straight edges then a 2x4. Even a string tied between 2 points will be straighter!
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptjam View Post
    Because the factory engineering staff published a bulletin for all dealers stating that the Rolo laser alignment system is the best way to align Spyders. Because the inventor, Mike Loescher, has a patent on the device. Because thousands of people have had it done and are totally satisfied. Because the lasers connect to the center of the wheel. Because it is based in math. Why not read up on it? See Spydercomfort.com. Click on NY dealers. Find one near you. Most check it for free. We do. If it is within spec, it is free. If not, it is plain to the naked eye how far off it is. Get it aligned. Go ride it. Feel the difference! Three of the most knowledgeable men I know (Lamont, Spyderpops, Len) all have and use this system. In fact, I asked them if I should get one. All agreed: it is the best way to align a Spyder. Less than 1% are within spec, from the factory, in my experience.
    You must be a salesman as none off those reasons mean anything other than thousands of people have done it and are satisfied. I heard that BRP now uses this method to align Spyders during assembly.

  5. #30
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    I have no clue what the official alignment specs are, but there are quite few of us that have done our own shade tree alignment with 2 lengths of angle iron attached to the wheels and 2 tape measures.
    We shoot for 1/16" toe in with the weight of the rider on the Spyder. Personally, I've gone closer to 1/8" because I like the feel a bit better.
    However, all of these machines had NO issues before the alignment with tire wear or pull. All of the ones I've seen have all had considerable le toe OUT.
    Has worked great for us. I did have the dealer reset the sensors later on....nothing changed.

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by saber504 View Post
    You must be a salesman as none off those reasons mean anything other than thousands of people have done it and are satisfied. I heard that BRP now uses this method to align Spyders during assembly.
    No they don't use this method during assembly that is why they are all still out of spec. BRP told their dealers that this was the proper method to use. I'm not understanding why you have such a problem with it? Statistics don't lie.

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  7. #32
    Very Active Member jcthorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saber504 View Post
    You must be a salesman as none off those reasons mean anything other than thousands of people have done it and are satisfied. I heard that BRP now uses this method to align Spyders during assembly.
    You heard wrong. Have done 2 2016s recently and they were both way off from the factory.

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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by IGETAROUND View Post
    Had not read that BRP engineering published that statement. That makes all the difference to me. BRP must love you for saying 99% of Spyders are out of spec from the factory.

    Turns out my local dealer has a laser unit.

    Ah but the question is how many have they done!!!!!

    Any mechanical procedure is refined and the error rate is reduced the more that you perform it. I want my alignment performed by a skilled and trained individual who does them on a regular basis.
    Yes that's what you should do when you lack the mechanical skill set to understand alignment.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderAnn01 View Post
    No they don't use this method during assembly that is why they are all still out of spec. BRP told their dealers that this was the proper method to use. I'm not understanding why you have such a problem with it? Statistics don't lie.
    I got that information from a BRP representative. They started in 2014. I doubt they use the exact equipment you have as it would be too slow for a assembly line. all technology can be modified and improved on.

    Never trust a sales person on technical issues. Their motives are tainted by money and generally are technically ignorant. Just use them for clues to the true answer.

    I have never seen a forum being used so obviously to generate sales.
    Last edited by saber504; 05-27-2016 at 07:28 AM.

  10. #35
    Very Active Member jcthorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saber504 View Post
    I got that information from a BRP representative. They started in 2014. I doubt they use the exact equipment you have as it would be too slow for a assembly line. all technology can be modified and improved on.

    Never trust a sales person on technical issues. Their motives are tainted by money and generally are technically ignorant. Just use them for clues to the true answer.

    I have never seen a forum being used so obviously to generate sales.

    I have never seen one new user join the group and so steadfastly refuse to acknowledge real world evidence rather than trust what some BRP talking head told them in a passing conversation.

    The facts are simple. They do not come from the factory properly aligned. It does not matter the method they supposedly use, what ever it is, it does not work and they arrive at dealerships incorrectly set. Most dealers do not have the tools or the training to fix the problem. As a result of all this, the aftermarket came up with a very real and working system to fix the problem. Its been proven several hundred times over. To the point that BRP themselves now recommend the aftermarket solution to their own dealers. There are other ways to do the alignment other than the TruLaser tools. Its just that this particular set of tools is specifically and precision machined to work on the Spyders and Slingshots and it works well, is very repeatable and accurate in the right hands. It may not be the 'only' way. But it is a way that is proven and repeatable and recommended by the OEM.

    Strangely enough (or perhaps not so strange) the same sequence of events has transpired on the Slingshot side.....with the exact same solution and results. (the TruLaser adaptors are slightly different and the Slingshots have camber to deal with so a bit more complex but still works the same.)

    If you do not want your bike aligned, fine, no one is holding a gun to your head. Most of the alignment dealers that know what they are doing will all offer to check the alignment for free and no charge if its correct. They do this because its exceedingly rare for one to be correct from the factory. Far less than 1%. The pricing changed for the service is very much in line with the labor involved and the investment in tools needed. No one is getting rich off laser alignments.

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by saber504 View Post
    I got that information from a BRP representative. They started in 2014. I doubt they use the exact equipment you have as it would be too slow for a assembly line. all technology can be modified and improved on.

    Never trust a sales person on technical issues. Their motives are tainted by money and generally are technically ignorant. Just use them for clues to the true answer.

    I have never seen a forum being used so obviously to generate sales.
    In 2013 Mike Loescher pitched his True Laser Track system to BRP and in January of 2014 BRP made the recommendation to their dealers that this was the technique to use, it is not in use by the factory. You must have misunderstood what the rep was telling you. If your Spyder was aligned at the factory with the equipment as you state then why do you even ask about alignment at all? My guess is that your Spyder is ill handling but you are just too cheap to take it to be laser aligned by one of us with the True Laser system.

    Yes, I am in the business of selling alignments but I will check your Spyder and if it is in spec you would not be charged.

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  12. #37
    Active Member Michaelscs's Avatar
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    Ann, do you have plans to come to Minnesota?
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michaelscs View Post
    Ann, do you have plans to come to Minnesota?
    We are heading to Michigan in June and we are trying to figure out a way to stop in Bemidji to see Seth O's new baby so we could possibly stop in your area.

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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    I did my own, not a big deal in my opinion since it is a basic toe adjustment. Yes there are other considerations such as the centering the steering and electronics. We had no obvious pull, or centering concerns, simply the machine was crap apexing corners. The front end is similar to a race kart and it felt like an ill handling kart.

    I did not use angle iron, but had the inexpensive tools already for doing my own alignments on other vehicles. Sat my friend on the bike that weighs the right amount, about my weight in gear. And set it up, works fine. Used specs that Drew mentioned.
    I was thinking along the same lines. Seems that in your setup, it is critical that the jig's tape measure points plane be perfectly parallel to the plane of the wheel contact points.

    I use something similar for cars. As long as the spyder is not pulling, do you adjust the tie rods on both sides an equal amount so as to not change the handle bar position? is 1/8 inch adjust significant to the nanny in your experience.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderAnn01 View Post
    In 2013 Mike Loescher pitched his True Laser Track system to BRP and in January of 2014 BRP made the recommendation to their dealers that this was the technique to use, it is not in use by the factory. You must have misunderstood what the rep was telling you. If your Spyder was aligned at the factory with the equipment as you state then why do you even ask about alignment at all? My guess is that your Spyder is ill handling but you are just too cheap to take it to be laser aligned by one of us with the True Laser system.

    Yes, I am in the business of selling alignments but I will check your Spyder and if it is in spec you would not be charged.
    That system is not suitable for an assembly line. Principles probably are, which is what I suggested they are doing.

    Actually we are pretty happy with our spyder right out of the box (its really my wife's ride). However I rarely find a mechanical device that I can not visualize an improvement to. Forums provide a quick way to educate one self on the issues and the possible resolutions. Using a hands on approach just furthers one's understanding so when a real problem hits you can resolve it quicker. Paying people to solve your problems teaches you little. All the press in the forums certainly lead me the follow the alignment threads. Sure sounds like the early machines had their issues.

    When one of the bays clears out in my shop, I'll design and fab up a jig to check alignment. Right now no unusual tire wear and tracks straight on a level surface, but still worth a closer look.

  16. #41
    Active Member Michaelscs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    I did my own, not a big deal in my opinion since it is a basic toe adjustment. Yes there are other considerations such as the centering the steering and electronics. We had no obvious pull, or centering concerns, simply the machine was crap apexing corners. The front end is similar to a race kart and it felt like an ill handling kart.

    I did not use angle iron, but had the inexpensive tools already for doing my own alignments on other vehicles. Sat my friend on the bike that weighs the right amount, about my weight in gear. And set it up, works fine. Used specs that Drew mentioned.
    PMK, How did you determine the length of you horizontal bars? That would greatly effect your measurements.

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  17. #42
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michaelscs View Post
    PMK, How did you determine the length of you horizontal bars? That would greatly effect your measurements.

    Thanks
    I didn't, that entire setup is available from QuickTrick or something like that. I bought it for aligning the cars and trucks we own. Tried it on the Spyder and it works fine.

  18. #43
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saber504 View Post
    I was thinking along the same lines. Seems that in your setup, it is critical that the jig's tape measure points plane be perfectly parallel to the plane of the wheel contact points.

    I use something similar for cars. As long as the spyder is not pulling, do you adjust the tie rods on both sides an equal amount so as to not change the handle bar position? is 1/8 inch adjust significant to the nanny in your experience.
    This entire setup is for cars and what I bought it for.

    As for the mention about the toe bars contact points, yes and no. Obviously there are things that could vary your results, but overall the Spyder is a pretty docile alignment since by design, inherently there is a lot of bumpsteer.

    I also considered I have aligned much faster and more critical things in the past, the key word is tolerance. So unless you place the toe sticks on a raised white letter, the front / rear dimension are very accurately for what we are accomplishing...

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    This entire setup is for cars and what I bought it for.

    As for the mention about the toe bars contact points, yes and no. Obviously there are things that could vary your results, but overall the Spyder is a pretty docile alignment since by design, inherently there is a lot of bumpsteer.

    I also considered I have aligned much faster and more critical things in the past, the key word is tolerance. So unless you place the toe sticks on a raised white letter, the front / rear dimension are very accurately for what we are accomplishing...
    It looked like your contact was on the wheel but the above suggests it touches the tire. What does it contact?

  20. #45
    Active Member GearHd's Avatar
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    Why bother fabricating a jig when it only costs $130 to get the alignment done correctly? I could see if you had a bunch of buddies that needed there's done. But if I don't know you I'm sure not paying for some backyard fabricated alignment when I can pay $130 for a proven laser alignment. We just had our 14 ST-L laser aligned last week and it's night and day. The left front was toed out a mile.
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  21. #46
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saber504 View Post
    It looked like your contact was on the wheel but the above suggests it touches the tire. What does it contact?
    Depends, I have used them on the tire and also with small spacers against the tires bead.

    As I mentioned unless the bar is on a raised white letter the impact on alignment is minimal.

    I do like many things about the laser setup, one item that does make me wonder about accuracy since I have never heard mention of the laser being tracked while spinning the wheel / hub, is that since the mount spot on the hub is a small diameter, the accuracy of the mounting is less tolerant to any debris or mounting error since a tiny amount on the hub is huge at 10 feet out.

    The laser setup is a good method, with a proven following. Nothing wrong with that. Certainly better than how they do them when new at production.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHd View Post
    Why bother fabricating a jig when it only costs $130 to get the alignment done correctly? I could see if you had a bunch of buddies that needed there's done. But if I don't know you I'm sure not paying for some backyard fabricated alignment when I can pay $130 for a proven laser alignment. We just had our 14 ST-L laser aligned last week and it's night and day. The left front was toed out a mile.
    Because there really isn't a necessity to fabricate anything, and cost absolutely nothing to do but a bit of time with common materials found around most garages.
    Further, doing it yourself gives you the ability to dial in your own setup.
    The "alignment" changes constantly as you ride and the suspension cycles, rider weight, cargo, and riding 1 or 2 up. There is no exact setting that is perfect for everyone. Its a compromise. You'd be surprised at how little adjustments affect handling, especially if your more aggressive in the turns.

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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michaelscs View Post
    PMK, How did you determine the length of you horizontal bars? That would greatly effect your measurements.

    Thanks
    The length does affect the measurements considerably. That's why there is no real "magic number" anyone can post for the shade tree method.
    The laser system just allows for consistent specs firing the lasers to a set distance target.

    You could do the same with tapes and bars to, once you figure what works for length.
    My 1/16"-1/8" is based on the bars I use personally. I don't recall the exact length and to lazy to dig them out, but they are about 3'

    Don't be afraid of it. If your Spyder tracks straight just make sure you do equal adjustments to each side. Work smart or keep the tools in the box...[emoji106]

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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
    I have never seen one new user join the group and so steadfastly refuse to acknowledge real world evidence rather than trust what some BRP talking head told them in a passing conversation.
    Its been proven several hundred times over. To the point that BRP themselves now recommend the aftermarket solution to their own dealers. It may not be the 'only' way. But it is a way that is proven and repeatable and recommended by the OEM.

    If you do not want your bike aligned, fine, no one is holding a gun to your head. .
    You've come to this party with some pretty strong opinions...
    ...And you're not gonna let facts get in the way of them; are you?

    You'll learn...eventually!
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    We set are race cars at 0 to start and may add a little toe in if it gets squirmy on test laps.
    This thing is not a rocket ship, frame alignment works fine.

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