2016 USB Fault

[SpyderNeil]

Hi All,

I have been getting a USB fault quite often on my 2016 RTE6.

Talked to the dealer about it and was emailed this:

"So I have looked into this issue and you are not the only one experiencing
this problem!

They have been informed of the issue at BRP and are working on a software
update to resolve this issue! Only solution at this time is to disconnect
and reconnect USB.

I will most definitely keep my eyes open and as soon as I hear anything I will give you a shout!I will most definitely keep my eyes open and as soon as I hear anything I will give you a shout!"

I will let you all know when I hear anything else.

Neil

[Cruzr Joe]

Is this when you plug in a USB device such as a zip drive for music??

Not sure what overcurrent means???? too large of a device??

Cruzr Joe

[spyderCodes]

USB protocol limits current, in most cases to 500mA or 2.5Watts at 5V.
An attempt to plug in a device that draws more than that causes the error,
A connector or wire that is faulty will also cause the error.

[Highwayman2013]

Probably drawing too much current to charge the device.

[SpyderNeil]

Is this when you plug in a USB device such as a zip drive for music??

Not sure what overcurrent means???? too large of a device??

Cruzr Joe

Yes it's for music. Most of the time it works great, but every once in a while it faults when you start the trike. Unplugging and then re-inserting the drive always gets it working again. Also re-starting the trike will work.
This happens on 3 different drives: 4GB 8GB and 32GB sticks of two different makes.

Neil

[billybovine]

Obviously an internal error in the system. Since USB sticks will not draw more than 500ma.

Does anyone know what spec the USB port in the 2016 Spyder is. USB 2 will be 5V with a 500ma limit. USB 3 will be 5V with a 900ma limit. Likely one of those 2. Would be very nice if they could incorporate the Qualcomm charging port spec. 5V, 9V or 12V at 2000ma

[finless]

Obviously an internal error in the system. Since USB sticks will not draw more than 500ma.

Does anyone know what spec the USB port in the 2016 Spyder is. USB 2 will be 5V with a 500ma limit. USB 3 will be 5V with a 900ma limit. Likely one of those 2. Would be very nice if they could incorporate the Qualcomm charging port spec. 5V, 9V or 12V at 2000ma

So this came up on facebook and some of us think we know what it is....
A guy posted a spec from a service manual or some BRP documentation. It is USB 2.0.
Now some of these new sticks that support USB 3.0 can draw on the edge of 500ma.
Some discussion about heat to the stick causing resistance to rise and the memory chips to get hotter thus making it draw more current.
Typical ohms law. Increase resistance and current draw goes up! Heat causes resistance to increase in any circuit. In the old days we use to call this thermal runaway.
So as a test the guy put on a USB extension cable and moved the memory stick to another location where it could get air and stay a little cooler.
He has not had the error since.

Bob

[spyderCodes]

...
Typical ohms law. Increase resistance and current draw goes up! Heat causes resistance to increase in any circuit...

Bob

Uh Bob....
As The last time I looked I really don't think that's what Mr. Ohm said.
E is IR
E/R is I
I is E/R
If you increase R then I decreases.
Or was that so long ago that I forgot ?

[SpyderNeil]

So this came up on facebook and some of us think we know what it is....
A guy posted a spec from a service manual or some BRP documentation. It is USB 2.0.
Now some of these new sticks that support USB 3.0 can draw on the edge of 500ma.
Some discussion about heat to the stick causing resistance to rise and the memory chips to get hotter thus making it draw more current.
Typical ohms law. Increase resistance and current draw goes up! Heat causes resistance to increase in any circuit. In the old days we use to call this thermal runaway.
So as a test the guy put on a USB extension cable and moved the memory stick to another location where it could get air and stay a little cooler.
He has not had the error since.

Bob

Hi Bob, coincidentally:

Yesterday I added a short (6") extension cable just to limit the re-inserts, didn't want to damage the trike's cable. After doing this I had no more faults, I'm riding today and will report the faults (or lack of).
BTW I have only use USB 2.0 sticks.

Neil

[billybovine]

So this came up on facebook and some of us think we know what it is....
A guy posted a spec from a service manual or some BRP documentation. It is USB 2.0.
Now some of these new sticks that support USB 3.0 can draw on the edge of 500ma.
Some discussion about heat to the stick causing resistance to rise and the memory chips to get hotter thus making it draw more current.
Typical ohms law. Increase resistance and current draw goes up! Heat causes resistance to increase in any circuit. In the old days we use to call this thermal runaway.
So as a test the guy put on a USB extension cable and moved the memory stick to another location where it could get air and stay a little cooler.
He has not had the error since.

Bob

So it's USB 2, good to know. By the way when was Ohm's Law changed. Should they not have sent out a press release or something.

[finless]

Heat causes resistance to go up. Even in a wire.
If a device needs to draw a certain amount of power like 500ma to operate, then if it gets hotter resistance will go up and thus current will go up. As current goes up more heat and thus increasing resistance even more.

Like I said... it's know as thermal runaway. It's rare in today's electronics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_runaway

"Thermal runaway refers to a situation where an increase in temperature changes the conditions in a way that causes a further increase in temperature, often leading to a destructive result. It is a kind of uncontrolled positive feedback.

In other words, "thermal runaway" describes a process which is accelerated by increased temperature, in turn releasing energy that further increases temperature. In chemistry (and chemical engineering), this risk is associated with strongly exothermic reactions that are accelerated by temperature rise. In electrical engineering, thermal runaway is typically associated with increased current flow and power dissipation, although exothermic chemical reactions can be of concern here too. Thermal runaway can occur in civil engineering, notably when the heat released by large amounts of curing concrete is not controlled. In astrophysics, runaway nuclear fusion reactions in stars can lead to nova and several types of supernova explosions, and also occur as a less dramatic event in the normal evolution of solar mass stars, the "helium flash".
"

Bob

[PaladinLV]

You are right on the money!
But if the current is compensating for the increase in R . . .
That's what Bob is saying ergo the thermal runaway

AJ

Uh Bob....
As The last time I looked I really don't think that's what Mr. Ohm said.
E is IR
E/R is I
I is E/R
If you increase R then I decreases.
Or was that so long ago that I forgot ?

[billybovine]

There is no thermal runaway here. Read all the OP's post. It only happens on startup, when it happens. He is using USB 2 sticks so draws about 100 to 150ma.

[SpyderNeil]

There is no thermal runaway here. Read all the OP's post. It only happens on startup, when it happens. He is using USB 2 sticks so draws about 100 to 150ma.

Yes, Billy, the fault never occurs while the USB stick is "running", only on startup.
But it has never faulted on Initial startup (in the garage) only after I have been riding for a while, stop and re-start a few mins. later. Sorry, I never thought to include this in the original post, so heat Could be a factor.

Neil

[spyderCodes]

huh?
This shouldn't turn into a discussion of thermal runaway
Generally speaking wires get hot when whatever they are connected to has a decreased resistance generally due to a short or a component fault and their current conduction capacity is exceeded.

The wires themselves are merely victims of the real fault.

Plus if you accept that a lightbulb is really just a wire then measure the resistance of that wire before you light it then after it gets hot.

I think you will find the bulb's wire has a lower resistance before it gets hot.

[spyderCodes]

here's a graph of relative wire resistance versus heat,
It seems to contradict the "as wires get hot their resistances decreases" school of thought.

[finless]

So I guess super conductors don't really need to be cooled to almost eliminate resistance

Who said a wire getting hot decreases resistance? I said it increases...

Anyway I was sharing an experience from another person about the USB stick getting hot and causing the USB fault.
Not my theory just what he experienced and did. If it doesn't help your problem so be it..

Bob

[spyderCodes]

So I guess super conductors don't really need to be cooled to almost eliminate resistance

Who said a wire getting hot decreases resistance? I said it increases...

Anyway I was sharing an experience from another person about the USB stick getting hot and causing the USB fault.
Not my theory just what he experienced and did. If it doesn't help your problem so be it..

Bob

You are right you said higher resistance cause the current to go up and in my warped universe that can only happen if resistance goes down because I subscribe to the old ohm's law.

[SpyderNeil]

Anyway I was sharing an experience from another person about the USB stick getting hot and causing the USB fault.
Not my theory just what he experienced and did. If it doesn't help your problem so be it..

Bob

Hi Bob, just got back from a 300Km ride and I still got the fault, only once but still faulted. I'm going to try moving the stick around the trunk and see if that makes any difference.

Neil

[Synthetic]

I'd contribute to this discussion but I have no idea what you all are talking about! hehehehhee

[Belrix]

Just a note that it's happening to me, too, on my mini-usb stick. It's probably not USB 3.0, I'm too cheap for that and it's overkill anyway for a music stick. I'll try the extension cable thing. Thanks!

[pitzerwm]

I think that you are missing the info that the dealer said that BRP knows about it and is making a software change. I'm thinking that its measuring too close to min/max and displaying the code, they will just change the amount/parameter read and no more codes.

[SpyderNeil]

Just a note that it's happening to me, too, on my mini-usb stick. It's probably not USB 3.0, I'm too cheap for that and it's overkill anyway for a music stick. I'll try the extension cable thing. Thanks!

This issue SEEMS to be heat related. On cooler days I get very few faults, but yesterday it was in the mid to high 80s and every time I stopped and re-started the fault occurred. Tried moving the stick around in the trunk, but it's pretty warm everywhere in there.
NEVER had the USB fault while it's running, just on re-starts and only when it's warm.
I hope BRP comes up with a solution, but I'm not holding my breath!

Neil

[SpyderNeil]

I spoke to the dealership service righter today. She checked BRP's site and told me:

"There will be a software update this fall, and the issue will be addressed then"


Neil

[bcer960]

I've had it a few times too, only on start-up. I'll be checking the fall for an update...
Thanks guys

Ray