To Steve (BRPcare) about DESS issues

[rcturner]

I have experienced the DESS code for the first time today on my 2014 RT-S with 3180 miles on it. After reading your information about the problem I think it could have been caused by my Nissan Rogue key fob that was in my pocket at the time. My question is: Is the replacement of the module and reprogramming of the keys a real fix or simply a feel good response to something that is functioning properly but not the way we would like? I am sure that my dealer will replace any and all parts associated if necessary but, I really don't want them to take the bike apart just to do something that isn't going to fix something that isn't really malfunctioning.

Thanks

See post #7 for additional info about my bike.

[WEB-WVR]

Will be nice to know.....

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I have experienced the DESS code for the first time today on my 2014 RT-S with 3180 miles on it. After reading your information about the problem I think it could have been caused by my Nissan Rogue key fob that was in my pocket at the time. My question is: Is the replacement of the module and reprogramming of the keys a real fix or simply a feel good response to something that is functioning properly but not the way we would like? I am sure that my dealer will replace any and all parts associated if necessary but, I really don't want them to take the bike apart just to do something that isn't going to fix something that isn't really malfunctioning.

Thanks

...........In case you don't get an answer, I just had my MODULE re-placed.....Total time to do it 10 minutes.......IF - the frunk isn't on the Spyder..............Otherwise it takes about 2 hrs. @ shop rate time ........If you look in your frunk at the Battery cover......the upper left corner ......go over an inch and up 2 inches .......that's where the MODULE is .....( two plugs - two bolts ) ........I'll bet they either move it somewhere else more accessible or put in a door ............BECAUSE A PERMANENT FIX - DOESN'T SEEM TO BE AN OPTION..... Sorry for the sarcasm................................Mike

[waytootall67]

My wife's 2014 st 11500km had this happen 115km from home $531 tow.

[pitzerwm]

IMO another key/cell phone/ghost/lightening storm/God hates you excuse from BRP is just that an excuse, to cover up that they have no clue, or that they figure its cheaper to just replace parts until you go away. When I was a tech, and we had intermittent problems (F4 radar systems (1968)) we used Freon and a heat gun to make the module fail. Usually, it was a under sized part and we would replace with a "larger/better" part. We had a war to win, so our job was to keep the plane in the air and the radar doing its job. These modules were a lot more complicated than any DESS box.

If they got these from the cheapest Chinese source, then you know that they used the cheapest parts/chips. Either way a poor design or cheat parts, if they wanted to solve it, they could.

[Don in E Texas]

Had this issue a couple of times:

1. Drove to work - parked - would not start 5 minutes later when I went to move the bike. 4 hours later - started right up. Replaced module.
2. Stop for lunch. After lunch, would not start. Towed home where it started the next day. Replaced module.
3. Parked in its 'normal' spot here at the house. Would not start the day after a nice ride. Waited until the next day and started right up. Replaced module.

Hope the 3rd time is a Charm and no more issues. Biggest problem it leaves you stranded; if Limp Mode at least you could power up and move the machine.

Don

[rcturner]

I checked with my dealer this AM. When the bike was in demo service, it had the recall done and all relevant parts replaced. He also said their experience with the original system showed that once the problem started, it continued to get worse. Until I hear more from someone from BRP, I will continue to monitor and hope for no repeat of my problem from yesterday. The dealer said they would be glad to replace everything again but, I am going to wait and see. If I have to walk, I will know who to blame.

[Jheck]

BRP's lack of response to these problems has me thinking maybe it's time to move on back to Honda. I really like my Spyder, but the concern of being left beside the road is very unnerving. And BRP just does not seem to care. 500.00 dollars for a tow home- that's total BS! BRP should should be covering that money, this is a known problem that they are not responding to. It's to bad that something like this has to put such a black mark on an otherwise great bike because the company won't stand behind their product.
Come on BRP!
Either do a recall and fix this or let us owners be given the choice to have this system disconnected.

[missouriboy]

Had this issue a couple of times:

<snip>
Biggest problem it leaves you stranded; if Limp Mode at least you could power up and move the machine.

Don

But wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose? (Which is to prevent theft, right?).

[missouriboy]

My wife's 2014 st 11500km had this happen 115km from home $531 tow.

Seems like that would be covered by the warranty, here in the States. Doesn't yours? Of course, you'd have to call the number on your warranty card, not just any towing service.

[jcthorne]

Seems like that would be covered by the warranty, here in the States. Doesn't yours? Of course, you'd have to call the number on your warranty card, not just any towing service.

The roadside service number on the warranty card provides VERY limited tow distance coverage. If you ride outside of that limited area you are well advised to have private roadside service coverage.

There is a provision in the BUDS software to disable the DESS. Perhaps BRP should send out a tech bulletin to dealers advising them of how to use this option for customers that want it until such time the DESS can be re-engineered to work reliably.

From a personal stand point, I would rather take the risk of the bike being stolen (I rarely leave it any where that would be an issue) than the current risk of it not starting when I am away from home. In the first instance it would be Geico's problem.

BRP really does need to pony up and provide a real world work around while the re-engineer this.

[WEB-WVR]

The roadside service number on the warranty card provides VERY limited tow distance coverage. If you ride outside of that limited area you are well advised to have private roadside service coverage.

There is a provision in the BUDS software to disable the DESS. Perhaps BRP should send out a tech bulletin to dealers advising them of how to use this option for customers that want it until such time the DESS can be re-engineered to work reliably.

From a personal stand point, I would rather take the risk of the bike being stolen (I rarely leave it any where that would be an issue) than the current risk of it not starting when I am away from home. In the first instance it would be Geico's problem.

BRP really does need to pony up and provide a real world work around while the re-engineer this.

First what does DESS do exactly and does disabling it effect anything negatively ??? I like the idea of disabling it !

[WEB-WVR]

BRP's lack of response to these problems has me thinking maybe it's time to move on back to Honda. I really like my Spyder, but the concern of being left beside the road is very unnerving. And BRP just does not seem to care. 500.00 dollars for a tow home- that's total BS! BRP should should be covering that money, this is a known problem that they are not responding to. It's to bad that something like this has to put such a black mark on an otherwise great bike because the company won't stand behind their product.
Come on BRP!
Either do a recall and fix this or let us owners be given the choice to have this system disconnected.

They need to own up and FIX IT !!!! or pay for tow bills IN FULL....until they do have a FIX for it. Thx for your comments.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

First what does DESS do exactly and does disabling it effect anything negatively ??? I like the idea of disabling it !

The DESS verifies that the key in the ignition is authorized to operate the Spyder. The only disadvantage that I can think of is any key with the proper cut would operate the bike.

I don't know it can be disabled in 2013 and earlier Spyders as the entire verification process takes place in the DESS module and a run signal is sent to the ECM. In 2014 it was changed and the ECM gets the key ID number from the DESS and checks the list of authorized keys. If it matches then OK to run.

If in fact the DESS can be disabled as JCThorne says, the instructions on how to do so are in specialized or detailed service manuals available only to dealers. It is not in the service manual available online to us.

[finless]

The reports of DESS failures are far less here than I have seen on Facebook or other places. So it is a much larger problem out there than what you see here.

Bob

[billybovine]

The ability to disable DESS is not in the dealer version of BUDS. It is an advertised extra feature of aftermarket versions. So you can't ask your dealer to do it because they can't. BRP has to give them that ability.

Being able to detect other keys with a passive transponder chip at an arm's length sound like a unlikely guess to me. The range I was able to find in the few tech writing on the topic, for motor vehicles, was 1 cm to 10 cm. For those of you metric challenged that is less than 1/2 inch to 4 inch. I don't know about you but I don't know anyone with a 4 inch long arm. Only keys that are attached to your Spyder key should be a problem. So what is the range for real. I know from my own testing on 2013 the range is about an inch. I know the transponder chip changed in 2014 but the technology for inducing a voltage in a passive chip is the same. So I don't expect much difference. But it would be interesting for those with 2014 models and later to test it for yourself. Those of you that have made a spare key that does not have a transponder chip in it, X270 or similar. Use it to turn on your ignition. Then see how close the chipped Spyder key has to be to the ignition switch to work. Report back the results. A video of your test would be excellent.

[cuznjohn]

i can remember a buick park avenue i owned. it would lose the key chip all the time. buick kept trying to fix it, but it just kept happening. then one day i was stuck in Monroe NY and had to spend the night up there because everything was closed. the next day, i called a dealer and they came out and the car got started. when i got home, i went to a car stereo place i know, and asked him if i could eliminate it. he added a resistor and my problem was solved. I WONDER IF THIS CAN BE DONE ON THE SPYDER. i would do it just to have piece of mind of not being stuck somewhere. yea it is a theft deterrent, but that is why i carry insurance

[Jheck]

[QUOTE=finless;1126926]The reports of DESS failures are far less here than I have seen on Facebook or other places. So it is a much larger problem out there than what you see here.

Bob[/QUOTE
I agree % wise this is a big problem. You figure over 10 yrs just over 100,000 spyders have been built, that's a small number. Especially when you compare it to to Hondas marysville plant that built 1 million motorcycles the 25 yrs that it was open. Than you figure that this problem affects 14's. 15's and 16's, thats 10,000 or more maybe, I have to think that most of them have had or will experience this problem.
If BRP does not step up to the plate and take care of this they are going to start losing sales. I mean my Spyder draws it share of attention at filling stations, and people ask questions. How shall I respond? Gee it's a really great bike!, if it doesn't leave you beside the road.

[Jheck]

The roadside service number on the warranty card provides VERY limited tow distance coverage. If you ride outside of that limited area you are well advised to have private roadside service coverage.

There is a provision in the BUDS software to disable the DESS. Perhaps BRP should send out a tech bulletin to dealers advising them of how to use this option for customers that want it until such time the DESS can be re-engineered to work reliably.

From a personal stand point, I would rather take the risk of the bike being stolen (I rarely leave it any where that would be an issue) than the current risk of it not starting when I am away from home. In the first instance it would be Geico's problem.

BRP really does need to pony up and provide a real world work around while the re-engineer this.

Me too. 50 years, 17 motorcycles, haven't lost one yet.

[Bob Denman]

But it would be interesting for those with 2014 models and later to test it for yourself. Those of you that have made a spare key that does not have a transponder chip in it, X270 or similar. Use it to turn on your ignition. Then see how close the chipped Spyder key has to be to the ignition switch to work. Report back the results. A video of your test would be excellent.

Done!!
The Chipped key had to almost be touching the dummy key in the switch, for the bike to start...

[Jheck]

I sent this thead link to BRP care. Hoping to get some response. We will see. I will post any response from them about this problem.

[WEB-WVR]

I sent this thead link to BRP care. Hoping to get some response. We will see. I will post any response from them about this problem.

Thanks... .... it will be interesting to see what they say.

Thanks to all those that educated me and others on what DESS does.

[waytootall67]

Seems like that would be covered by the warranty, here in the States. Doesn't yours? Of course, you'd have to call the number on your warranty card, not just any towing service.

In fairness to brp the best warranty covered the first $200, but we still need to get it the dealership.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Done!!
The Chipped key had to almost be touching the dummy key in the switch, for the bike to start...

I tried having the tech enter a new key into the ECM with BUDS with a non-chip in the ignition and the new key right against it. Didn't work. Had to put the new key into the ignition before BUDS could see it. Obviously the signal from key to antenna is pretty weak. Both keys were cut.

[PMK]

In convenience to us as owners, loss of profits to BRP, loss of repeat customers over time and the lack of good customer service at all levels will take it's toll if and when Honda or another manufacturer releases their version of a trike.

Seems you can have almost the worst machine, but good customer service can help overcome the problems. The best manufactured or best performing machine with poor customer service will always have weakness.

If you were buying a car, truck, or motorcycle and the dealer told you as they were selling it to you that the machine can randomly fail to start at any time, anywhere, and we rally do not have a proper fix for it. So we simply replace a few parts and when it fails again, replace those same parts, but don't worry, it's not that bad since we can keep fixing it as long as you are under warranty and don't mind waiting a couple weeks each time while we have the machine apart. Would you have purchased the vehicle?

Maybe this DESS failure was supposed to arrive in 2013 as an inferno safety device.

Found the definition of BRP. Business Recovery Plan.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...nning-BRP.html

So much of the Can Am Spyder is starting to retrace footsteps of the Can Am motorcycle and it's demise from the 70's and early 80's. The Canadians have gotten our money, maybe they are smarter than we think and have no intentions to fix an of it.