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Very Active Member
WIRES - ETC.
Originally Posted by cuznjohn
does anyone know how many wires go to the dess module. i am sure a electronics shop could figure out how to jump it out if they knew what it consisted of
.......There are TWO plugs into the MODULE, with TWO wires in each PLUG........Mike
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Very Active Member
I would say that its high time for BRP to come out and tell everybody that there is a problem with the 2014-2016 bikes and tell us they are working on a solution But no, BRP is so secretive about things they aren't saying a thing or even saying there is a problem. I would hate to even count how many modules have be replaced and as everybody knows, it's not the FIX. I would hate people to experiment on there bikes and start cutting wires to help bypass the key DESS problem. This would cause no telling what problems to our Spyders. I have a 2015 RTS and haven't been bitten by the dreaded DESS failure, but with all the DESS failures being reported , it sure doesn't give you peace of mind when you get on your Spyder to take a trip.
2017 F3 Limited in Intense Red Pearl
2008 Triumph Rocket (SOLD)
2002 Honda VTX 1800 C ( SOLD)
2014 Triumph Thunderbird Commander
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Very Active Member
Just looked on the BRP parts site, looks like the DESS module is not for sale. My thought was to get one and find a shop to find out what makes it tick. 515 |
710004190 |
D.E.S.S.TM (Digitally Encoded Module) |
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Not Available |
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911
.......There are TWO plugs into the MODULE, with TWO wires in each PLUG........Mike
well that sounds to me like one set of wires power the module, and the other set are on a open contact that closes when the key is found. so then if the open relay is jumped out, it closes the circuit and the bike will start
NO BIKE AT THIS TIME
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Very Active Member
I like the direction this thread is going. Only other thing I can think of is that BRP may get the message if they were looking at a class action lawsuit.
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by cuznjohn
well that sounds to me like one set of wires power the module, and the other set are on a open contact that closes when the key is found. so then if the open relay is jumped out, it closes the circuit and the bike will start
Think of it like a phone line. It's not just the connection that's important. It's the information that is passed back and forth is also important. The bank manager calls the bank and tells them to open the safe and give them the combination. The combination can only be used once and never can be used again. They open the safe and the bank is in business for the day. So if you cut the phone line that's is only 2 wires and jumper them together. That does nothing. The bank manager cannot talk to the bank. No one at the bank knows the combination. They can't open the safe. Out of business.
Last edited by billybovine; 05-11-2016 at 12:19 PM.
2018 F3 LIMITED
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Very Active Member
Well it looks like the DESS module is available for the 2016's I had previously looked at the 2014
248 |
710004916 |
Dess Module |
$132.99 USD |
Available |
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I'll spring for the cost of the module if we can find someone that can figure it out.
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Just A Thought
Any chance that Pitbull/Lamonster have an answer, or a work around, to this problem?????????
2021 Marsala Red Metallic RT Limited
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Very Active Member
LESS COST MODULE HERE
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DESS 4th go around
My dealer just told me that their BRP tech told them they are NOT even working on the problem because once you have the latest and greatest module the problem is fixed unless you have another source of RFI causing the problem...
If it ever stops raining here, the next trip on my Spyder I will put my cell phone and vehicle keys back in the right saddle bag in my cooler and see if the problems returns or not...
JUST MAKES ME PROUD TO BE AN OWNER OF SUCH A FINE MACHINE...
PS I have a GREAT dealer and they are trying to help in any way possible...
larryd
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Very Active Member
REALLY
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DESS issue
Originally Posted by cuznjohn
well that sounds to me like one set of wires power the module, and the other set are on a open contact that closes when the key is found. so then if the open relay is jumped out, it closes the circuit and the bike will start
That is unlikely. It is more likely that one plug is power to the module and the other is connected to the CANbus network.
Given the amount of computerisation of these machines, I would be surprised if it was a simple as a relay. More likely it sends a message to the starter control circuit that the correct key is inserted, an it is OK to start.
Keep in mind that this is just a guess, but 40+ years working in industrial automation and control makes me think it is very likely.
2012 RT Limited Pearl White
Baja Ron anti sway bar, BRP trailer hitch, BRP Comfort seat and Back rest,
SpyderPops Bumpskid, Vertika Floorboards, High mount Stop/Run and Turn signals,
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More to come.
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Very Active Member
Maybe Steve will get back to us if he reads this post, I just put in an inquiry with the Dept. of Transportation about who I need to talk to about this issue. Figure I paid enough for the machine and I paid my fair share of taxes so I'll let BRP and the Gov have at it. Owning a $20,000 plus machine that you can't trust is BS.
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Very Active Member
i am sure it is simple to have BRP turn off the unit through software, but i doubt they will because it will cost them money to have the dealer do it. so my suggestion would be, if a bike goes in with the problem and the module needs to be changed, then the dealer should be able to turn off the function if the owner want it done. OR if a person like me who has not had the problem wants it done, i would pay a reasonable service charge to be hooked up to the BUDS system to have it turned off
NO BIKE AT THIS TIME
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Very Active Member
I know this is the internet and it's easy to TYPE, SEND and THINK.
But here is reality folks.
As soon as a corporation, any corporation hears "Class Action Law Suit" this is what happens:
Wagons get circled.
Law Firms, already on retainer, get called.
Their advice DO NOTHING UNTIL WE STUDY THIS.
Then guess what?
Time passes.
and passes.
and passes.
Plus here's the icing on the cake:
BRP does respond to their product's shortcomings.
They usually take more time than anyone likes but they come through.
Alright, my flame suit is on.
Have at it.
Last edited by spyderCodes; 05-11-2016 at 03:31 PM.
Reason: making it more like English
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by cuznjohn
i am sure it is simple to have BRP turn off the unit through software, but i doubt they will because it will cost them money to have the dealer do it. so my suggestion would be, if a bike goes in with the problem and the module needs to be changed, then the dealer should be able to turn off the function if the owner want it done. OR if a person like me who has not had the problem wants it done, i would pay a reasonable service charge to be hooked up to the BUDS system to have it turned off
How much is it costing them to replace the modules? Gotta be more than plugging in the BUDS and reprograming the system.
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by spyderCodes
I know this is the internet and it's easy to TYPE, SEND and THINK.
But here is reality folks.
As soon as a corporation, any corporation hears "Class Action Law Suit" this is what happens:
Wagons get circled.
Law Firms, already on retainer, get called.
Their advice DO NOTHING UNTIL WE STUDY THIS.
Then guess what?
Time passes.
and passes.
and passes.
Plus here's the icing on the cake:
BRP does respond to their product's shortcomings.
They usually take more time then anyone likes but they come through.
Alright, my flame suit is on.
Have at it.
Just to be clear I'd much prefer to see BRP just correct to problem. But after reading all the post's about this problem I don't see any positive action on BRP's part. I have no intention of flaming you and you bring out an important point. I'm hoping that BRP will promptly rectify this issue once and for all.
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Active Member
Originally Posted by rcturner
Jheck sent this link to BRPCare a few days ago.
Thanks Jheck
I also sent the other DESS thread to them also. Steve at BRP CARE says they always monitor their e-mail. So if that is true, they have been notified of our concerns.
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Very Active Member
here is another question for the people having the problem. do any of you have another key that is chipped for the bike in your pocket or hidden on the bike. could it be that the reader is reading both keys and causing the problem
NO BIKE AT THIS TIME
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Very Active Member
2013 STL SE5 BLACK CURRANT
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SmoothSpyder: dualmode back rest
T r * * LED:foam grip covers, Tricrings, FenderZ,
brake light strips, wide vue mirrors
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sawblade mowhalk fender accents
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Lid lox
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FLO (Frunk Lid Organizer)
BRP fog lights, trailer hitch
SENA 20S EVO
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by cuznjohn
here is another question for the people having the problem. do any of you have another key that is chipped for the bike in your pocket or hidden on the bike. could it be that the reader is reading both keys and causing the problem
I just tried this. With the second key next to the one in the ignition a DESS error comes up. One inch or more away, no error. This again is verification that the transmit signal from the key is pretty weak. That's why BRP says "unless there is other RFI" causing a problem. The weak signal from the key can be easily overpowered by some other RFI.
If we knew what the frequency is that the key transmits on it would be easier to do meaningful testing with other devices that use that same, or nearby, frequency.
2014 Copper RTS
Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by Imagestealer
That is unlikely. It is more likely that one plug is power to the module and the other is connected to the CANbus network.
Given the amount of computerisation of these machines, I would be surprised if it was a simple as a relay. More likely it sends a message to the starter control circuit that the correct key is inserted, an it is OK to start.
Keep in mind that this is just a guess, but 40+ years working in industrial automation and control makes me think it is very likely.
One plug is power. The other goes directly to the ECM, not CANbus.
I think some of you missed my earlier explanation, "In 2014 it was changed and the ECM gets the key ID number from the DESS and checks the list of authorized keys. If it matches then OK to run." All the DESS does is reads the digital key number from the key and transmits it to the ECM. The ECM makes the decision if the key is authorized. If the key code get mucked up for whatever reason, the ECM will not find it in its list of authorized keys and gives the DESS error. I can readily understand the idea that other RFI signals can mess up the code the DESS sends to the ECM. That is something that BRP has no control over.
Those of you who get repeated DESS errors, have you tried leaving ALL your electronic stuff behind to see if maybe something you have is causing the problem? Or, if you need to have that stuff with you put it inside a lidded steel can in the trunk. That should trap the RF coming from them. If you then have no DESS errors that will be a strong indicator that something external to the Spyder is causing the problem.
Now, what I haven't seen anyone mention is having the ECM changed out, at least for a test. If, by some chance, there is a glitch in the ECM in the key verification part of the software, then that will create an error, I'm sure.
2014 Copper RTS
Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
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Very Active Member
Looks like it's not just Spyders that have DESS problems it seems to be a problem with most of the Can Am product line, check this out.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...not+recognized
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder
One plug is power. The other goes directly to the ECM, not CANbus.
I think some of you missed my earlier explanation, "In 2014 it was changed and the ECM gets the key ID number from the DESS and checks the list of authorized keys. If it matches then OK to run." All the DESS does is reads the digital key number from the key and transmits it to the ECM. The ECM makes the decision if the key is authorized. If the key code get mucked up for whatever reason, the ECM will not find it in its list of authorized keys and gives the DESS error. I can readily understand the idea that other RFI signals can mess up the code the DESS sends to the ECM. That is something that BRP has no control over.
Those of you who get repeated DESS errors, have you tried leaving ALL your electronic stuff behind to see if maybe something you have is causing the problem? Or, if you need to have that stuff with you put it inside a lidded steel can in the trunk. That should trap the RF coming from them. If you then have no DESS errors that will be a strong indicator that something external to the Spyder is causing the problem.
Now, what I haven't seen anyone mention is having the ECM changed out, at least for a test. If, by some chance, there is a glitch in the ECM in the key verification part of the software, then that will create an error, I'm sure.
I think changing out the ECM as a test would be quite an involved process. What I'd love to be able to do is sniff the canbus and see what the DESS is sending to the ECM. If it's the correct number (no idea how to determine what is correct or not) then it could be a software glitch in the ECM. If garbage is being sent on the bus, then it could be the DESS. By swapping out DESS modules it seems BRP thinks it's garbage on the bus (or a bad read) rather than a glitch in the ECM.
The two times I've gotten a DESS error there were no other electronic doodads anywhere near the key or the module. Both times, taking the key out and waiting a few minutes cleared up the problem.
Trb-- (Roger)
2014 Cognac STL:Ultimate Seat, Nelson Rigg Tail Pack, Nelson Rigg RS/ST Half Cover, TL fender lights, Squared Away Laser Alignment, BajaRon sway bar and links, Akropovic Sport Silencer
2022 White Pearl F3T
Gone but not forgotten: 2019 F3S Special Series Liquid Titanium
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by Trbayth
What I'd love to be able to do is sniff the canbus and see what the DESS is sending to the ECM. If it's the correct number (no idea how to determine what is correct or not) then it could be a software glitch in the ECM.
It's not on the CANbus. It plugs directly into the ECM.
2014 Copper RTS
Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
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