ISCI Hand Brake Stopping Distance?

[P8ICSPM]

New to this forum and Spyder. Recently upgraded from 2005 Harley Road King with Champion IRS rear end to 2015 RT SE6 with ISCI hand brake. Hand brake was installed by local, reputable Spyder dealer with top Spyder mechanic in our area. Rode standard RT (foot brake only) once, have incomplete paralysis in leg so very difficult to use. After less than 100 miles have the distinct impression that stopping distance on RT is farther than prior trike even when I use full force on hand brake. Could be that I'm decelerating more (i.e. initiating stop from higher speed?) but expected the RT with ABS to have significantly shorter stopping distance than previous trike. Wondering if the ISCI hand lever activating the foot lever is part of the issue? Assumed "or" operation of hand and foot brake but understand from sales guy the ISCI brake is serial?

[Omcge]

New to this forum and Spyder. Recently upgraded from 2005 Harley Road King with Champion IRS rear end to 2015 RT SE6 with ISCI hand brake. Hand brake was installed by local, reputable Spyder dealer with top Spyder mechanic in our area. Rode standard RT (foot brake only) once, have incomplete paralysis in leg so very difficult to use. After less than 100 miles have the distinct impression that stopping distance on RT is farther than prior trike even when I use full force on hand brake. Could be that I'm decelerating more (i.e. initiating stop from higher speed?) but expected the RT with ABS to have significantly shorter stopping distance than previous trike. Wondering if the ISCI hand lever activating the foot lever is part of the issue? Assumed "or" operation of hand and foot brake but understand from sales guy the ISCI brake is serial?

Does the hand brake lever bottom out ?Do you have a solid feel on the lever ? If not you may need to bleed the system. Just a little air in system and it will be mushy.
I was having a problem with mine not stopping and changed pads to fully sintered from Baha Ron, a sponsor and now can easily
activate the ABS system. I spent a lot of time working on mine and discovered the main braking system needs to be in great shape for the Hand Brake to work properly. My foot brake would work ok but had a little more travel than needed for the hand brake to work properly. I had more than one problem. I also have limited use of my right leg and totally rely on my hand brake. You can PM me if you have any questions.

Larry

[jimsturges]

I have the ISCI hand brake as well and I rely totally on it to stop as I am a double amputee. I have the same issue as you do, my stopping distance is close to double and at speeds over 40 there is no way I could stop to avoid a collision if someone pulled out in front of me. I took it to a local dealer and they refused to work on it because it wasn't factory equipment. Funny enough at the same visit they installed my non factory aftermarket trailer hitch without a problem. Still scratching my head on that.
I'm not sure what the answer is but would love to know myself.
Good luck!


Jim

[gypsy_100]

Assumed "or" operation of hand and foot brake but understand from sales guy the ISCI brake is serial?

I don't know what you mean by "serial". The ISCI brake simply pushes on the OEM pedal system just as though you were stepping on the pedal. Squeeze the handbrake and watch the pedal move. The ISCI has no hydraulic connection to the OEM system which is a very good thing. It just mechanically pushes on the pedal OEM system when you squeeze the lever. You can do both at the same time to get maximum force. If you can push at all with your leg, that force will just add to the force coming from the lever. I use both all the time.

Does the hand brake lever bottom out ?Do you have a solid feel on the lever ? If not you may need to bleed the system. Just a little air in system and it will be mushy.
I spent a lot of time working on mine and discovered the main braking system needs to be in great shape for the Hand Brake to work properly. My foot brake would work ok but had a little more travel than needed for the hand brake to work properly.

Larry

I agree with Larry. On my 2011RT I could never get rid of all the air in the ISCI system and it was mushy. ISCI re-designed the slave cylinder to make it easier to get all the air out. I think I also had less than perfect bleeding in the OEM system. My 2014 has the new ISCI system on it and bled out much better. Since you just got yours, you should also have that new system so it should bleed OK if the tech installed it properly. I went 'round and 'round with the tech's from ISCI as I was installing it to make sure I got it right. The brake line fitting for the slave cylinder should be on the top and the bleeder valve is on the side facing outward from the bike. That's counterintuitive and not the way I would have done it but ISCI assured me that is correct and they have internal passages in the new slave cylinder that assure air will not get trapped in there above the level of the bleeder. Also note that the new ones comes standard with a "speed bleeder" on the slave cylinder to make the bleeding process much easier.

The Brembo brakes on the 2013's - 2015's are incredible. That bike will stop much faster than you can believe. I personally am not sure the ISCI by itself will come up to the same force as the pedal but based on the comments of others here, it seems that it will do pretty darn good. As I said, I always use both. My two-wheel motorcycle muscle memory always goes for that hand lever. I don't want to "unlearn" that for when I hop back on my two-wheelers.

[P8ICSPM]

Sorry, haven't figured out yet how to insert your posts for response.
Larry "Does the hand brake lever bottom out ?Do you have a solid feel on the lever ?"
Hand lever feels solid, only goes to bottom if I apply extreme force but does not feel like it's bottoming out.
gypsy_100 "I don't know what you mean by "serial"." Meant hand brake and foot brake is series, one on top of the other.
May opt for comfort seat which gives me 2" more for easier foot pedal access then use foot and hand for hard stopping.
Had hoped to loan my RT for local wounded warriors at Camp Pendleton but am reluctant if hard braking requires foot + hand.
Jim - You may want to contact Road Warrior Foundation to understand their RT solution for amputees:
http://www.roadwarrior.org/rider-profiles/

[gypsy_100]

[QUOTE=P8ICSPM;1008639]Sorry, haven't figured out yet how to insert your posts for response.

Click on the right-hand bottom "Reply with Quote". That will reproduce the entire quote in your reply. You can delete or highlight parts of it as you need.

To draw on multiple posts, click on the "+ symbol to the right of "reply with quote". Click on the "+ symbol of each post you want to include in your reply. When you get to the last post you want to include, click on "reply with quote" and it will bring all the posts you have designated into your reply. Hope this helps.

gypsy_100 "I don't know what you mean by "serial"." Meant hand brake and foot brake is series, one on top of the other.

Hope my response was clear. They are additive -- use either one or both. Squeezing the lever just pushes on the pedal, same as your foot.

[P8ICSPM]

I have the ISCI hand brake as well and I rely totally on it to stop as I am a double amputee.
Jim

You could consider something similar to what Dave Barr (double amputee, right ATK) did when setting his world records on two wheel Harley ... adapting prosthetic to foot brake pedal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Barr_(motorcyclist)

[Chupaca]

Has anyone tried an emergency stop using each one seperately..?? Does the hand system need more leverage..?? Those I know that have it say it does not do well but they have the ability to use their foot as well. They should have a model for hand use only that works better. After all it is a three wheel brake system with a 70%/30% split so you won't do a nose dive...

[P8ICSPM]

Has anyone tried an emergency stop using each one seperately..?? Does the hand system need more leverage..?? Those I know that have it say it does not do well but they have the ability to use their foot as well. They should have a model for hand use only that works better. After all it is a three wheel brake system with a 70%/30% split so you won't do a nose dive...

Braked hard on each separately, BIG difference between foot only and hand only. Think part of the issue is SE6 auto down shifting. Engine appears to rev higher on down shifting with hand only. Hand brake alone works better with manual down shift but that is NOT an option in an emergency.

[jimsturges]

Has anyone tried an emergency stop using each one seperately..?? Does the hand system need more leverage..?? Those I know that have it say it does not do well but they have the ability to use their foot as well. They should have a model for hand use only that works better. After all it is a three wheel brake system with a 70%/30% split so you won't do a nose dive...

ISCI says with the hand brake you should receive the exact same braking ability as with the foot pedal however I've spoken to no one who agrees.


Jim

[Peter Aawen]

Bearing in mind that I don't know many who use a handbrake like this on their Spyders & so have limited exposure, it seems to me the problem is quite simply an issue of pressure.... stomping a foot on the brake pedal provides waaaaayyyyy more pressure to activate the brake mechanism/hydraulics than ANYONE is going to be able to apply by squeezing a lever with their hand & having that directly applied to the existing brake activation mechanism! And to generate the same sort of pressure via just a lever type arrangement would probably require a cam/pulley/cog/gear system that would likely be far too bulky to attach to the handlebars!!

I suspect that the only real solution for those people who can't use the foot pedal to augment the pressure they can apply to the hand lever will eventually be resolved by a 'vacuum power assist' system similar to that used on cars, and I don't think any of the 'add-on' hand brake lever systems provides that.... yet, anyway!?

Ps: the pressure applied by the ISCI system would probably be equal to that of the foot brake, IF the activation pressure applied by the hand to the lever was equal to that applied by the foot to the pedal, and that it ain't & is never likely to be without some form of boost.

[ARCTIC]

Has anyone tried an emergency stop using each one seperately..?? Does the hand system need more leverage..?? Those I know that have it say it does not do well but they have the ability to use their foot as well. They should have a model for hand use only that works better. After all it is a three wheel brake system with a 70%/30% split so you won't do a nose dive...

I can get 95%(ish) just judging by feel of the hand brake versus stomping on the pedal. If you apply quick sharp pressure with the handbrake it seems to be more effective than pulling in partially and then going for full braking pressure. When I'm hard on the brakes with the handbrake and then stomp on the pedal I always get more braking power that you can feel once the pedal is applied.

Bearing in mind that I don't know many who use a handbrake like this on their Spyders & so have limited exposure, it seems to me the problem is quite simply an issue of pressure.... stomping a foot on the brake pedal provides waaaaayyyyy more pressure to activate the brake mechanism/hydraulics than ANYONE is going to be able to apply by squeezing a lever with their hand & having that directly applied to the existing brake activation mechanism! And to generate the same sort of pressure via just a lever type arrangement would probably require a cam/pulley/cog/gear system that would likely be far too bulky to attach to the handlebars!!

I suspect that the only real solution for those people who can't use the foot pedal to augment the pressure they can apply to the hand lever will eventually be resolved by a 'vacuum power assist' system similar to that used on cars, and I don't think any of the 'add-on' hand brake lever systems provides that.... yet, anyway!?

Ps: the pressure applied by the ISCI system would probably be equal to that of the foot brake, IF the activation pressure applied by the hand to the lever was equal to that applied by the foot to the pedal, and that it ain't & is never likely to be without some form of boost.

You're thinking about it as if it's a mechanical linkage. It's a hydraulic brake system. You can create leverage by having more throw on the master cylinder than what the slave cylinder has but there is a sweet spot between minimizing effort and getting enough travel out of the slave cylinder.

[Peter Aawen]

I take your point, Arctic, and maybe my choice of the word 'pressure' wasn't appropriate & didn't quite convey exactly what I was trying to get out - sorry, that's my bad.

So I'll have another go (still bearing in mind what I said about not seeing/having access to many ISCI set-ups) From what I can see, the OE foot pedal has a (mechanical) link to the brake hydraulic system via a lever & pivot arrangement, and the total pedal throw or travel is what determines how 'hard' the brakes are applied via the extent of that travel transferred to the OE Master cylinder piston (the rubber pedal bit being on the long end of the pedal lever) - with the added feature on some models of a 'drop down' footboard so that you can get extensive pedal movement if you really stomp on that pedal in an emergency!! The ISCI handbrake system has a lever with a similar sort of mechanical link to its own hydraulic system (albeit with a significantly smaller/shorter lever throw due to the shorter lever & pivot distances that will fit into the available space) and the ISCI lever & hydraulic system is connected to the activation/hydraulic end of the OE pedal mechanism via another lever & pivot linkage and a (correspondingly short piston length) slave cylinder....

To me & my understanding of how these things work, that means that the restricted & relatively short overall throw or travel allowed by the ISCI handbrake, it's linkages, & its correspondingly short slave cylinder is never going to be as long (or hard?) as that provided by the OE pedal with its drop down footboard that operates on the longer 'lever' end of the OE activation mechanism; or if you like, no matter how hard you squeeze on that hand brake lever, you simply cannot transmit the same length of travel or pressure to the OE hydraulic brakes as that provided by the OE pedal - or am I wrong??

I'm happy to be corrected if that's the case, but I have (reasonably carefully but not micrometer type accurately) measured the length of travel allowed by the OE pedal to activate the OE master cylinder, & (admittedly less carefully simply because the Spyder the handbrake was fitted to wasn't stripped down so I couldn't get my ruler all that close to the slave cylinder) measured & compared that to the total travel allowed by the ISCI handbrake, and as far as I can see, the ISCI handbrake will transmit a maximum throw or travel distance to the OE hydraulic master cylinder that is about 1/4 less than the maximum allowed by the OE pedal; & to me that means the ISCI handbrake is just not ever going to be able to apply the brakes as hard as the OE pedal - at least not unless something is done either up on the handle bar end or down at the slave cylinder end to increase the total length of travel transmitted to the OE master cylinder by applying the hand brake.

That make any more sense, or am I still barking up the wrong tree??

[Thump]

Just trying to help:
I installed my ISCI Handbrake this past Friday and it works the same as the foot break for me.
Possibly if you are not getting the same pressure as the foot brake you may need to look at the following installation step:

16. Loosen the two Jam Nuts at the rear of the slave cylinder so that the brake pedal is in its upmost position. Tighten the front jam nut against the mounting bracket until the brake pedal starts to move down and then back off that jam nut ½ turn. Check to make sure that the brake lights are not on. If they are on continue backing off the front jam nut ½ turn at a time until the brake lights are no longer on. At this time tighten the rear jam nut securely.

This takes out all play and ensures the Handbrake actuates the same as the foot break.
Hope this is helpful
Thump

[PaladinLV]

The problem is simple physics.

Being a mechanical link, there is no way possible one's hand can apply the same pressure (force) as one's leg and foot.

AJ

[msrider]

The problem is simple physics.

Being a mechanical link, there is no way possible one's hand can apply the same pressure (force) as one's leg and foot.

AJ

As an engineer, I absolutely agree that it is almost impossible to create the same braking pressure with the hand brake set up.

I ride a 2012 RT Limited with a ISCI hand brake. I have multiple sclerosis and have lost almost all control of my right leg and wear a KAFO (long leg brace). It would be impossible for me to operate a right foot brake. I have used the ISCI for over 2 yrs, but have almost crashed by not being able to stop fast enough. The problem is most noticeable when I have the additional weight of a passenger or my RT-622 trailer. I use the ISCI, downshifting, and common sense to manage most braking needs -- but I still worry about an emergency braking situation.

My right hand and arm have lost function/strength which has increased my concern. I have been considering a left foot brake conversion, but i just found this "brake - assist" device:



Has anyone ever tried it? I think they only sell mounts for a goldwing but I am sure it could be adapted to work on a spyder.

[msrider]

As an engineer, I absolutely agree that it is almost impossible to create the same braking pressure with the hand brake set up.

I ride a 2012 RT Limited with a ISCI hand brake. I have multiple sclerosis and have lost almost all control of my right leg and wear a KAFO (long leg brace). It would be impossible for me to operate a right foot brake. I have used the ISCI for over 2 yrs, but have almost crashed by not being able to stop fast enough. The problem is most noticeable when I have the additional weight of a passenger or my RT-622 trailer. I use the ISCI, downshifting, and common sense to manage most braking needs -- but I still worry about an emergency braking situation.

My right hand and arm have lost function/strength which has increased my concern. I have been considering a left foot brake conversion, but i just found this "brake - assist" device:



Has anyone ever tried it? I think they only sell mounts for a goldwing but I am sure it could be adapted to work on a spyder.

I forgot to ask if anyone is aware of a GOOD quality (like ISCI) kit to covert to a left foot brake.

[Windagetray]

I'm a former power lifter and my hands are large enough that I rarely find gloves (even 3X's) that fit me. I have bi-lateral neuropathy in both legs due to a lower back injury. I probably don't HAVE to have the ISCI hand brake but I tend to trust my upper body/hands more then my legs/lower body. The hand brake does a great job and I use it to "cover" the brakes any time I feel uneasy about hitting a deer or when I come to an intersection or any time it would be prudent to do so. I know there is no way even my hand can bring to bear the same stopping power with the ISCI brake as my foot can.

As a matter of fact while taking my 3-wheeler license test, my brakes had started fading a bit because we had "practiced" similar skills just before the test. SO to be sure I was able to stop in the required distance for the test, I used the foot brake HARD. The back wheel came up and the instructors looked at each other. I thought I had "blown it". I asked if everything was OK. They said it's all good. They later explained that I had stopped in less than HALF the distance they'd ever seen ANY vehicle stop during that portion of the test!! I know there is no way I could have done that with the hand brake alone especially after they pads/discs were heated up.

In closing, I suspect that re-engineering of the ISCI master/slave cylinder dimensions could add more "force" to the lower pedal BUT, as with any force leveraging system, it would necessarily add to the "throw" distance (distance the hand lever must move). My hands could probably accommodate that but not everyone could. I know they make differently shaped levers for smaller hands but, the distance would still have to be increased too much to allow it to work for most folks.

[pwpalmbay]

I had an ISCI handbrake installed 1.5 years ago. From the start it felt "funny" in that it was mushy and as time went on, it would bottom out. Took it back to the dealer and they bled it. Seemed to work ok but something was not right. Finally it got to the point where it bottomed out and I knew something was wrong. I called ISCI and they said I had a bad master cylinder. They sent me a new one, had it installed and Everything is good now. I can pull it as hard as I need and the stopping distance is, I feel, as short as can be. I never stepped on the brake pedal because I'm as para with no use of my legs so I have nothing to compare it to.

[mudcruiserman]

I had an ISCI handbrake installed 1.5 years ago. From the start it felt "funny" in that it was mushy and as time went on, it would bottom out. Took it back to the dealer and they bled it. Seemed to work ok but something was not right. Finally it got to the point where it bottomed out and I knew something was wrong. I called ISCI and they said I had a bad master cylinder. They sent me a new one, had it installed and Everything is good now. I can pull it as hard as I need and the stopping distance is, I feel, as short as can be. I never stepped on the brake pedal because I'm as para with no use of my legs so I have nothing to compare it to.

I also had a bad master cylinder from them last fall. They got a bad batch from Harley Davidson.
Yes the only Harley part on my bike failed. Great guys at ISCI sent one almost overnight.
I also am paraplegic and have nothing to compare it to as far as using foot brake.
I do think it could stop better with a hand Brake. My idea is to use a BRP clutch master to a second slave parallel with the ISCI unit. Then I can stop with both hands. The only custom
pieces would be at the ISCI pivot/interface and slave mount. Looks like a second parallel slave should be simple.
Found picture of used one on ebay. Second picture is from ISCI site. What do you all think?

[pwpalmbay]

I also had a bad master cylinder from them last fall. They got a bad batch from Harley Davidson.
Yes the only Harley part on my bike failed. Great guys at ISCI sent one almost overnight.
I also am paraplegic and have nothing to compare it to as far as using foot brake.
I do think it could stop better with a hand Brake. My idea is to use a BRP clutch master to a second slave parallel with the ISCI unit. Then I can stop with both hands. The only custom
pieces would be at the ISCI pivot/interface and slave mount. Looks like a second parallel slave should be simple.
Found picture of used one on ebay. Second picture is from ISCI site. What do you all think?

My thoughts are this: with the ISCI set up as is, there are too many mechanical pivot pts that lose some of the energy in the hand pull that is actually transferred to the caliper. Maybe if the braking system was more conventional (strictly hydraulic), it would work more effective.