Gasoline Tank Failure

[BajaRon]

If the gas tank is so hot that cool gasoline will make it collapse, consider this.

Putting gasoline into a tank that hot is not only DANGEROUS! But it is going to immediately vaporize (boil) the gasoline probably spewing fuel out the fill hole. I would think the person doing the filling might notice this!

But in any case, this reaction of hot tank/cool fuel will create ADDITIONAL pressure, not a vacuum. They really need to think these preposterous conclusions through a little better.

This entire scenario is so ridiculous that I'm a bit embarrassed to even be discussing the possibility.

The vent system failed, plain and simple. Ray Charles could see that. The sooner they admit this the sooner you can get to a solution.

[billybovine]

If the gas tank is so hot that cool gasoline will make it collapse, consider this.

Putting gasoline into a tank that hot is not only DANGEROUS! But it is going to immediately vaporize (boil) the gasoline probably spewing fuel out the fill hole. I would think the person doing the filling might notice this!

But in any case, this reaction of hot tank/cool fuel will create ADDITIONAL pressure, not a vacuum. They really need to think these preposterous conclusions through a little better.

This entire scenario is so ridiculous that I'm a bit embarrassed to even be discussing the possibility.

The vent system failed, plain and simple. Ray Charles could see that. The sooner they admit this the sooner you can get to a solution.

Well said Ron!!!

[Lamonster]

No, BRP has not been contacted. The foreman states that he is trying to keep from contacting them because they will claim the exhaust caused the failure and I would definitely have to pay for the tank and repairs. The tank is $500.00. I know, it sounds like he is trying to cya. If he still comes back with the exhaust as the issue, then I will contact BRP myself.


Thanks,
Steve

Sent from my Galaxy Note Pro 12.2

You do know BRP reads these type of post right?

It was not your pipe, you had/have a vent issue that's it. Find that and your problem is fixed.

[satownsendsr]

You do know BRP reads these type of post right?

It was not your pipe, you had/have a vent issue that's it. Find that and your problem is fixed.

Yes, I was aware that BRP read these posts. The shop is checking the entire fuel system to ensure it is operating correctly. He wanted to do some checks before he contacted BRP, not that he was trying to keep something from them. He felt if he notified them now, they would want the tank back before he had a chance to do his tests. He is going to notify them what he finds. I am betting it will be the vent system also. When I talked to him yesterday he was speculating and told me he was since he had never seen this before.

[garb55]

Sounds like the dealer is trying to collect twice
First he said BRP wants the tank back
Then he said he did not contact BRP yet do to after market exhaust
Sounds like he wants you to pay then he will send tank back to BRP and collect from them too
If you pay you keep old tank

[satownsendsr]

Sounds like the dealer is trying to collect twice
First he said BRP wants the tank back
Then he said he did not contact BRP yet do to after market exhaust
Sounds like he wants you to pay then he will send tank back to BRP and collect from them too
If you pay you keep old tank

I don't think it is going to come to that. The exhaust didn't have anything to do with the failure. I believe he will find the vent system malfunctioned and all this is covered under warranty. I know a few RTL owners that have put Spyder Attitude exhaust on their machines far longer than I have had it on mine and they have had no issues of any kind with their fuel system. Remove the exhaust and the obvious thing left is the venting. I'm no mechanic, but this is JMO.
I'll know soon enough. I find it interesting and somewhat frustrating that I happen to be the only one that this has happened to from the people that have read these posts and the ones I've talked to personally. The dealer has never had this happen before. Just lucky I guess.
Now my wife is afraid to ride on it. She thinks it is going to catch on fire and burn us up. [emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji107] [emoji107] [emoji107]

Thanks,
Steve

Sent from my Galaxy Note Pro 12.2

[cuznjohn]

i can understand your wife's fears but it could happen to any one of us. just because your bike happened to have the problem it doesn't mean it might not happen to anyone else. any one of us can buy something and right out of the box there is a problem. just don't let them bs you, ask every question and any part the replace look at the old one

[jcthorne]

The gas cap on the Spyder is not vented. Agree that the venting system must be fully tested to find the root cause. It is certainly not the gas tank's fault.

I mis spoke. Not vented, its a 'sealed' system for the evap emissions system.

What I meant to say was the cap incorporates a vacuum relief, sometimes known as a conservation vent. Anyway, the cap is designed not to allow a strong vacuum in the tank.

[WA5VHU]

Are you sure it is a vacuum that was preventing you from removing the cap? It it is a vacuum you have a Major problem with the tank vent system. I am more inclined to say the reason the cap wouldn't come off is the expansion of the tank due to the heat as you described. After it cooled for 45 minutes you could unscrew the cap. Next time this happens just pour some water around the cap to cool it down and see if it comes off. Also if you look under the front right side look at the vent hose and see if you can see vapor coming out of the end of the tube.

Pretty sure it was a vacuum both times. There was a large sucking sound when the cap finally released and there was not a rush of gasoline fumes around the opening. Before and after the cap came off I could hear the gas "boiling" in the tank.

[BajaRon]

Pretty sure it was a vacuum both times. There was a large sucking sound when the cap finally released and there was not a rush of gasoline fumes around the opening. Before and after the cap came off I could hear the gas "boiling" in the tank.

Gasoline boils in a lot of tanks. Cars included. People just don't realize it. It doesn't have to be all that hot for gasoline to boil. As bad as it sounds, for the most part, it isn't a big deal.

Now my wife is afraid to ride on it. She thinks it is going to catch on fire and burn us up. [emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji107] [emoji107] [emoji107]

Vent systems, like every other system, can fail. It isn't common but it happens. It's been happening since fuel pumps were introduced to the world. The real problem here is not so much that the vent system failed (which I realize is the physical problem). But that someone is trying to put the blame on components that have nothing to do with the issue.

I'm sorry your wife is now leery of the Spyder. I think we've all run into this kind of concern from our wives from time to time. I sold a van a few years ago because my wife had lost confidence in it. I could have fixed it to be as reliable as ever. But she would never have been happy so I got rid of it and got another vehicle.

But your Spyder is not going to catch fire and burn up. It just needs a new tank and the vent system set right. Then you'll be riding trouble free like the huge majority of Spyder owners. If you can talk her into giving this another chance I think you will both be glad you did.

[satownsendsr]

Gasoline boils in a lot of tanks. Cars included. People just don't realize it. It doesn't have to be all that hot for gasoline to boil. As bad as it sounds, for the most part, it isn't a big deal.



Vent systems, like every other system, can fail. It isn't common but it happens. It's been happening since fuel pumps were introduced to the world. The real problem here is not so much that the vent system failed (which I realize is the physical problem). But that someone is trying to put the blame on components that have nothing to do with the issue.

I'm sorry your wife is now leery of the Spyder. I think we've all run into this kind of concern from our wives from time to time. I sold a van a few years ago because my wife had lost confidence in it. I could have fixed it to be as reliable as ever. But she would never have been happy so I got rid of it and got another vehicle.

But your Spyder is not going to catch fire and burn up. It just needs a new tank and the vent system set right. Then you'll be riding trouble free like the huge majority of Spyder owners. If you can talk her into giving this another chance I think you will both be glad you did.

I'm not sure it is the Spyder Bike itself that she is afraid of but this particular bike. She test drove a 2014 STS and a 2015 F3 and grinned the whole time. I think she just wants her own bike now so there will be someone to put me out when I become the new Ghost Rider on a Spyder. LOL JK. We will get through this and get back to enjoying the outdoors on the Spyder. [emoji106] [emoji127] [emoji776]

[PMK]

We had a long discussion about his theory. He is going to run some test on the entire system to make sure everything is working properly. I believe he will find something malfunctioning, that caused this. I tried to explain to him the same thing about the exhaust making it run cooler, not hotter, but he kept going back to the "running lean" thing causing it to run hotter. I'm waiting to see what his tests show before elevating this. He is going to also check the gas/air ratio to make sure that the computer reset after the exhaust was changed. I believe he is trying to find the real failure mode because he understands that there are a lot of after market exhaust systems on Spyders out there.

Thanks,
Steve

Sent from my Galaxy Note Pro 12.2

Sorry to read about your failure. I started reading these posts a while back and honestly walked away from so much BS.

Something to consider. And others may correct me if wrong, but if the Spyder engine management could not bring the air fuel ratios into the correct range, whether with a stock exhaust or aftermarket exhaust, you would expect a fault code to show up and not clear itself.

I work with vacuum and pressure stuff almost daily.

Consider that if the fuel pump had created enough pull on the tank to develop a few inches of vacuum, and it is capable of a good amount, that is equal to a 1 psi of external pressure on the tank, the net surface area of the tank will crush since there will be hundreds of pounds net force crushing the tank from the outside based on surface area.

It was not heat, cold fuel, exhaust. Simply the vent system failed. As for the fuel cap, I just removed the cap on our 2014 RTs, the cap has no venting circuit at all. It is 100% a blocked cap and has no means to flow air at all.

You may want to see if mud dobbers built a nest in any of the hoses open ends, not the best place since there are gasoline fumes. But I have seen them build nests in fuel vents on other vehicles.

PK

[satownsendsr]

Sorry to read about your failure. I started reading these posts a while back and honestly walked away from so much BS.

Something to consider. And others may correct me if wrong, but if the Spyder engine management could not bring the air fuel ratios into the correct range, whether with a stock exhaust or aftermarket exhaust, you would expect a fault code to show up and not clear itself.

I work with vacuum and pressure stuff almost daily.

Consider that if the fuel pump had created enough pull on the tank to develop a few inches of vacuum, and it is capable of a good amount, that is equal to a 1 psi of external pressure on the tank, the net surface area of the tank will crush since there will be hundreds of pounds net force crushing the tank from the outside based on surface area.

It was not heat, cold fuel, exhaust. Simply the vent system failed. As for the fuel cap, I just removed the cap on our 2014 RTs, the cap has no venting circuit at all. It is 100% a blocked cap and has no means to flow air at all.

You may want to see if mud dobbers built a nest in any of the hoses open ends, not the best place since there are gasoline fumes. But I have seen them build nests in fuel vents on other vehicles.

PK

I agree, as others have stated on this thread I think that at the end of the day it will be determined that the vent system failed causing this failure. As I stated in an earlier posts, the shop foreman is planning on running tests on the vent system along with checking the fuel/air ratio on the exhaust. I have never received any fault codes of any kind on the bike, so I don't think the engine running too lean is the issue either. I didn't ask specifically, but I would think that they will check the computer to see if anything is or was amise and I just missed seeing it. It is just frustrating to have a practically new bike and it stay in the shop for so long instead of on the road with me on it. Not much I can do about it, so I'll just have to wait to see what the final outcome is and go from there.
I just hope it isn't one of those problems that comes and goes and they are unable to pin it down but I would think if the vent system failed and code was displayed even for a second or two they will find it through BUDS.


Thanks,
Steve

Sent from my Galaxy Note Pro 12.2

[mob133]

tell your dealer to contact BRP and get a claim started or get the spyder to another dealer.... end of story

[billybovine]

I mis spoke. Not vented, its a 'sealed' system for the evap emissions system.

What I meant to say was the cap incorporates a vacuum relief, sometimes known as a conservation vent. Anyway, the cap is designed not to allow a strong vacuum in the tank.

You made me look at my gas cap a second time. There still is no vent, vacuum relief designed or built into the cap.

[billybovine]

You may want to see if mud dobbers built a nest in any of the hoses open ends, not the best place since there are gasoline fumes. But I have seen them build nests in fuel vents on other vehicles.

PK

Good thought but on the 2014 RT the vent to atmosphere ends in an air filter. This is different than previous models that end only in an open hose.

[Roadster Renovations]

As fuel is used, air must be added to the tank. Otherwise, it will collapse. Period. When they find what caused failure to that system that will be your culprit IMHO.

[tip]

Unless I have confused some of these posts - How can a fuel pump create a vacuum and leak at the same time??

[jcthorne]

Unless I have confused some of these posts - How can a fuel pump create a vacuum and leak at the same time??

pump fuel out, creates vacuum, colapse tank, then leak.

[Magdave]

pump fuel out, creates vacuum, colapse tank, then leak.

So that means the EVAP line is totally plugged? I have a hard time seeing how that happened unless it was pinched during assembly. Even then it seems to me a hot tank would blow it off when the fuel expands.I do not thin the tank would be the weak spot in this scenario Has the OP taken the cap off and notice an inward rush of air on refill?

[jcthorne]

You made me look at my gas cap a second time. There still is no vent, vacuum relief designed or built into the cap.

I should not have assumed the spyder cap was the same as all the spare and other caps I have arround. Went and pulled the cap from Louise bike and indeed you are correct. The hole where the spring and diaprham for the vaccum relief are located on my other caps (cars, bikes and stationary equipment) is blocked off solid on the Spyder.

Perhaps there should be. My old cap from a Mustang fits the Spyder fine and it does have a vacuum relief.

Also checked out the locking cap on my F3. It does have a vent port drilled bottom and side above the seal, but I cannot see what is inside. Its a much more robust all metal cap.

So it now seems a single point of failure (plugged vent) can cause this unless there is another vent in the system we are not aware of, say in the roll over valve.

[billybovine]

So that means the EVAP line is totally plugged? I have a hard time seeing how that happened unless it was pinched during assembly. Even then it seems to me a hot tank would blow it off when the fuel expands.I do not thin the tank would be the weak spot in this scenario Has the OP taken the cap off and notice an inward rush of air on refill?

No that does not mean the evap line is totally plugged. Maybe it is. Could be a plastic bag, road trash, covering the vent filter. Could be the rollover valve stuck shut. It is just a guess until the real root cause is found.

[Magdave]

No that does not mean the evap line is totally plugged. Maybe it is. Could be a plastic bag, road trash, covering the vent filter. Could be the rollover valve stuck shut. It is just a guess until the real root cause is found.

The EVAP system is an "open " system and can push or pull air into or out of the tank. The roll over valve could be the source of the plugged EVAP line if stuck in closed position and bad RO valves have occurred.

[satownsendsr]

So that means the EVAP line is totally plugged? I have a hard time seeing how that happened unless it was pinched during assembly. Even then it seems to me a hot tank would blow it off when the fuel expands.I do not thin the tank would be the weak spot in this scenario Has the OP taken the cap off and notice an inward rush of air on refill?

I have never noticed an inrush of air into the tank when taking the cap off. It has always come off with little effort and I have always put it back on until it clicked once. Also never noticed a gush of pressure excaping the tank when taking it off. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination on the Spyder, but I don't think the gasoline cap caused this, but I could be wrong. [emoji15]on't;know!


Thanks,
Steve

Sent from my Galaxy Note Pro 12.2

[PMK]

I should not have assumed the spyder cap was the same as all the spare and other caps I have arround. Went and pulled the cap from Louise bike and indeed you are correct. The hole where the spring and diaprham for the vaccum relief are located on my other caps (cars, bikes and stationary equipment) is blocked off solid on the Spyder.

Perhaps there should be. My old cap from a Mustang fits the Spyder fine and it does have a vacuum relief.

Also checked out the locking cap on my F3. It does have a vent port drilled bottom and side above the seal, but I cannot see what is inside. Its a much more robust all metal cap.

So it now seems a single point of failure (plugged vent) can cause this unless there is another vent in the system we are not aware of, say in the roll over valve.

What year Mustang please....

PK