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  1. #26
    Very Active Member Dan_Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
    True, there can be low quality fuel with high octane and vise versa. I tend to only use tier one gas, 91 octane or higher. My GT has a definite preference for Chevron but in the Spyder I cannot tell any difference between the tier one brands and all are 93 octane in these parts.

    None of our vehicles get Exxon products, fuel or lubricants for business and ethical reasons. They are not a tier one gasoline anyway.
    My ex-wife drove gas tankers. She said all the gas comes out of the same spigot at the refinery.
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    Very Active Member Tango's Avatar
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    My buddy ran a tank farm. All of the tankers filled up from the same tank. When his companies truck came in, they went to the fill that was separate from the others. When I asked what was the difference? Our farm, our trucks don't wait in the line to fill up. Mobil, Sunoco, Shell, etc.. All filled up from the same tank. Tom
    Baloo is my name. Spyders are my game. Well, it's a doo-bah-dee-doo, yes, it's a doo-bah-dee-doo, I mean a doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee-dee-doo. And, well, now. Ha ha! What have we here?



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    Very Active Member jcthorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Ashley View Post
    My ex-wife drove gas tankers. She said all the gas comes out of the same spigot at the refinery.

    So then there is no difference between 85, 87, 89, 91, 93 or 101 octane or diesel fuels by your statement. It simply is not true. Did you ever see all the different storage tanks and the distribution yard?

    And while fuel from one refinery may meet another brands standards, it may not meet all or the reverse may not be true.

    I can tell you open market gas that is sold at mom n pop convenience stores is NOT the same gas as Chevron premium. Unless there was excess premium inventory sold to the spot market. The reverse is NEVER true.

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  4. #29
    Very Active Member Tango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
    I can tell you open market gas that is sold at mom n pop convenience stores is NOT the same gas as Chevron premium. Unless there was excess premium inventory sold to the spot market. The reverse is NEVER true.
    JC that is exactly what happens! The tank farms operate on contracts. It may be 7 days, 15 days, 30 days. They may have a million gallons of Chevron to sell. The Chevron branded trucks fill up. So do the independent stations. Mom and Pop, 7-11's so forth. They just can't advertise they are selling Chevron. Additives can also be added in after the fill up. There is also a term that no one wants to talk about, "lay it over". If a station owner orders a load of 10,000 gallons of regular. But they only take 9,900 gallons. They still have to pay for the full amount! The driver has to dump the gas somewhere. Want to guess where it goes? They "lay it over" to another tank. The regular gas gets dumped into the mid grade, or worse the premium. Legal? No! But it gets done many more times than anyone wants to admit. Tom
    Baloo is my name. Spyders are my game. Well, it's a doo-bah-dee-doo, yes, it's a doo-bah-dee-doo, I mean a doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee-dee-doo. And, well, now. Ha ha! What have we here?



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    While i always try to run 91+, IMHO the age of the gas station, condition of the equipment, and presumed fuel turnover, is WAY more important than the name on the sign/brand of fuel.
    If I have to I'll choose 87 from a newer, busy station that's in good repair vs. 93 from an old, crusty, run down station that sees little fuel turnover.

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    Very Active Member jcthorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tango View Post
    JC that is exactly what happens! The tank farms operate on contracts. It may be 7 days, 15 days, 30 days. They may have a million gallons of Chevron to sell. The Chevron branded trucks fill up. So do the independent stations. Mom and Pop, 7-11's so forth. They just can't advertise they are selling Chevron. Additives can also be added in after the fill up. There is also a term that no one wants to talk about, "lay it over". If a station owner orders a load of 10,000 gallons of regular. But they only take 9,900 gallons. They still have to pay for the full amount! The driver has to dump the gas somewhere. Want to guess where it goes? They "lay it over" to another tank. The regular gas gets dumped into the mid grade, or worse the premium. Legal? No! But it gets done many more times than anyone wants to admit. Tom
    You actually agreed with my point. Yes, excess tier one gas is sold to mom n pop stations. Spot market low spec gas is NOT sold at the tier one stations. Lets not talk about stations selling regular through the premium pump. As you said its illegal and they do get caught. It happens FAR less at company owned and operated stations. They have too much to loose.

    So yes, you MIGHT get great gas at the local stop n rob. You can KNOW you are getting 93 Octane Top Tier gas from the premium pump at the Chevron station.

    Enough of this. If you want to fill up at the wally world and buy regular gas for your spyder, have at. I won't be riding or buying your bike anyway. Mine runs great on Chevron or Shell premium. Spyder runs fine on other brands too, its not nearly as fuel quality sensitive as my GT. In that, I can tell the difference within 5 miles of the station when its not running Chevron Premium or if the gas is less than spec.

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    Very Active Member Tango's Avatar
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    I buy 90% of my gas at top tier stations. Usually BP. We have no Chevron stations anywhere near us. I also ran a couple tanks of pure gas 91 octane. It got better mpg. Don't think it's worth the extra 30 cents on top of the premium with corn juice in it. Tom
    Baloo is my name. Spyders are my game. Well, it's a doo-bah-dee-doo, yes, it's a doo-bah-dee-doo, I mean a doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee-dee-doo. And, well, now. Ha ha! What have we here?



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    it seems like some are missing the point. In our area, the refineries send 91 octane down one pipe and 87 down another pipe to a tank farm or manifold where the delivery trucks are loaded. Our delivery trucks have two tanks one for 87 and one for 91. They get filled, if the gas is going to Chevron they throw in a bucket of additives for Chevron, if it is going to Shell, it gets a bucket of something else. If its going to mom and pop, nothing is added. It is still the same original gas from the refinery. After it gets to the station and the gas is pumped into the correct holding tank and the customer comes in and decides they want 89 octane the pump blends 91 and 87 together.

    In Northern Calif, we have Chevron, Tesoro, Phillips and Valero located in the bay area. Which means that Shell, Texaco, Mobil, Sinclear, Arco get their gas from one of those refineries for their Northern Calif stations. Santa Maria has an independent refinery -- so that would lead me to believe all the stations in that area get their gas from it.

    So I don't know which one pumps to our tank/manifold -- but I can bet they all say they are tier one. refineries
    Last edited by OwnerOfHarriet; 02-22-2015 at 11:38 AM.

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    Very Active Member Tango's Avatar
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    Sinclair. Wow! Didn't know they were still around. Tom
    Baloo is my name. Spyders are my game. Well, it's a doo-bah-dee-doo, yes, it's a doo-bah-dee-doo, I mean a doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee-dee-doo. And, well, now. Ha ha! What have we here?



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  10. #35
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Default THE REAL POINT IS !!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by OwnerOfHarriet View Post
    it seems like some are missing the point. In our area, the refineries send 91 octane down one pipe and 87 down another pipe to a tank farm or manifold where the delivery trucks are loaded. Our delivery trucks have two tanks one for 87 and one for 91. They get filled, if the gas is going to Chevron they throw in a bucket of additives for Chevron, if it is going to Shell, it gets a bucket of something else. If its going to mom and pop, nothing is added. It is still the same original gas from the refinery. After it gets to the station and the gas is pumped into the correct holding tank and the customer comes in and decides they want 89 octane the pump blends 91 and 87 together.

    In Northern Calif, we have Chevron, Tesoro, Phillips and Valero located in the bay area. Which means that Shell, Texaco, Mobil, Sinclear, Arco get their gas from one of those refineries for their Northern Calif stations. Santa Maria has an independent refinery -- so that would lead me to believe all the stations in that area get their gas from it.

    So I don't know which one pumps to our tank/manifold -- but I can bet they all say they are tier one. refineries
    Unless you DRAG RACING the 1330 Ace engine,,,,, 87 Octane works just fine.......Mike

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    I was not talking about specific gas for the 1330. Only how fuel is delivered in our area.

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    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Default SORRY

    Quote Originally Posted by OwnerOfHarriet View Post
    I was not talking about specific gas for the 1330. Only how fuel is delivered in our area.
    ....I'm confused I thought this site was about things re-lated to SPYDERS ??????................ ......Mike

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    Very Active Member Orange Spyder Man's Avatar
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    I think the "reasoning" behind using "Chevron, Shell or any other major brand is all hooie.... GASOLINE IS THE MOST REGULATED COMMODITY ON PLANET EARTH..
    our gubberment emphatically dictates what refineries can and cannot add to gasoline.. because of emission standards...

    osm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    ....I'm confused I thought this site was about things re-lated to SPYDERS ??????................ ......Mike
    It is about gas for Spyders, just not whether you should run 87,89 or 91 octane. But rather the quality of the octane you choose.

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    Very Active Member Silvervette05's Avatar
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    Premium only here

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    Very Active Member Dan_Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
    So then there is no difference between 85, 87, 89, 91, 93 or 101 octane or diesel fuels by your statement. It simply is not true. Did you ever see all the different storage tanks...
    That is not what she meant. ...but you already knew that, did't you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tango View Post
    Sinclair. Wow! Didn't know they were still around. Tom
    I see quite a few Sinclears in the midwest -- we just had 2 open up in the last year locally -- I love the dinosaur logo -- reminds of the Flying A logo from long ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangelmm View Post
    Gasoline Octane
    Let me just pull the pin and through this out there.
    A lot of the the new bike owners manuals will say that you have to have 94 octane which is a lie, if you believe this then you are just going into the game with half of the information, be realistic about your bikes.
    The standard hip pocket rule of thumb for octane is if your bike or car is not pre detonating then use the lowest octane available, octane to put it in gentleman's terms can be loosely called " The Resistance to Detonation of any fuel", and the best example I can give you is if you take a pie pan of gasoline that is 87 octane and a pie pan of gasoline that is 94 octane, you put them on the floor of your garage and you approach each one of them with a lit match, the 87 octane will detonate further away than the 94 octane, so gas is formulated to have a greater resistance to detonation the higher the number, and the number comes from an old thing that was called the "Anti Knock Index" because older cars over time would have the valves go out of adjustment, heads would leak, air would get into the motor.......and when the air would come in it would actually make your car run hotter, and to lower the temperatures in our cylinders we would put in higher octane gas, so if your car was knocking or running on after you turned the key off in the 50's, 60"s & 70's the solution for that was to put more expensive and higher octane gas in your tank.
    Lead was always in gasoline back then as a lubricant, but they would use things like seetane and later on toluane and other octane modifiers, and these octane modifiers were put in to artificially pump the octane number up on what the regular chemical composition of gasoline would be.
    Believe it or not one of the best octane boosters is water, and old trick used by old diesel mechanics, because of the hydrogen chain of water being H2O.....there is 2 hydrogens and 1 oxygen, if you have an old diesel engine that needs to have the heads cleaned, one of the Hail Maries was to spray some water through an atomizer bottle or spray bottle into the intake track of a diesel and what it would do is it would crank up the octane in the diesel fuel going in and it would burn out all of the carbon deposits inside the motor, but it is actually pretty dangerous and it can scatter a motor while your spraying it to explosive results.

    Only use 87 octane fuel in your motorcycles regardless of what the owners Manuel says, if you use any thing higher then the ethanol will chemically retard the timing of the engine which is actually alcohol poisoning.
    Higher octane does not burn cleaner as the petroleum companies would have you believe.

    It is not about the ethanol percentage because 94% octane does not contain more ethanol than 87% octane, it is about the ability to burn the gas versus the ethanol ratio in it.
    Ethanol is hydroscopic meaning it brings in more moisture.

    There are 2 methods of determining the octane number, one is the RON and the other is the MON, some countries use the RON exclusively and some countries use the MON exclusively. In the United States we use an average between the 2 numbers so the next time you are pumping gas for your bike or car look at the pump and it will say 87 octane RM/2 and what that means is that there adding the research number R+M/2 to the mechanical number and they are dividing it by 2, so they are giving you an average between the RON number and the MON number, now when you are looking at your owners manual for your Japanese or European motorcycle it is going to have a higher octane number and sometimes these manuals for bikes and cars specify a higher grade of gas because they have a higher cylinder compression and they are going to need 98 octane fuel, well 98 octane in the European system translates to our system in the United States to about 91 or 92 octane, so you are not buying the wrong gas and you are not going to damage your vehicle, the gas that is sold in Europe is the same gas that is sold here in the states they just have a different method of measuring the octane number.

    Every company that makes their money selling additives have tested out fuel, so if you use 87 octane in your motorcycle you will not get a single horsepower number higher on a dynamometer running 94 octane through your bike than you will running 87 octane it just does not work that way.
    If you are going to over build your motor, if you are going to run a high compression motor, if you are going to alter the timing to fire that spark plug at a point where the piston is higher and therefore the fuel is under higher compression then you do have to start using a higher octane fuel or you will pre detonate, so simply put if you've got a tuned motor or if your motor is under a high heat high stress application then it is ok to run a higher octane fuel to help counter the effects of cylinder pressure and heat.
    If you put a higher octane fuel in a bike that clearly does not need it you are doing your bike a disservice, and you are doing 2 things to it, 1 is you are making the oil companies really happy and we all know they need more money..... Right? But really what you are doing is chemically altering the timing of your bike, if you have points or fuel injection with a computer your spark is set to fire or go off at a certain time that is all based on the appropriate fuel for your vehicle and when you start changing the formulation of that and you start putting high octane fuel in then what you are doing is chemically retarding your timing because let's say now instead of that thing firing at 18 degrees before top dead center now in fact it is going to have to turn further, the crank will turn further, the pistons will go higher before it actually sets off the explosion because high octane gas has a greater resistance to detonation and compression, so now you have just messed with the timing of your vehicle.......spark will happen and ignition will happen but the time it takes because lower octane fuel burns hotter faster and higher octane burns slower and will take a longer amount of time before it lights up, spark and timing is the same but the flash over, the amount of time it takes to flash or fire up is changing and taking longer and is occurring later and that will give you the same effect as if you then further retarded your timing.

    With the current junk fuels blends they are selling us there is 20% less gas in your gas today than there was 10 years ago, between oxygenation and ethanol MTBE and all these things that are in the fuel they are taking the place that gas used to be and as we did that a lot of these components and chemical recipes that are in your fuel are there to pump up the octane that we lost when we started putting ethanol and oxygen in the fuel, and now gas does not last anymore, it used to last a couple of years but now within 30, 60, 90 days it smells like varnish and the bikes won't run right.
    Oh boy, so many misconceptions and mistakes in this post.

    Bottom line, Can Am recommends 91 or better, with 87 being acceptable in North America. Premium is recommended for optimum performance.
    That's in the book, and on the CanAm manual page on the web.
    If you run 87, timing will be slightly retarded IF spark knock (ping) is detected by the knock sensor.
    There is a certain amount of truth when Mobil, or Amoco advertises that premium fuels can clean up fuel systems and keep them clean. In some/most majors, there are extra additives added to premium to exceed top tier specs.

    I run premium, and ethanol free if it's available.

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    Very Active Member ARtraveler's Avatar
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    This thread dates back to 2015. It is very interesting to read the replies again. And a few of us have actually changed what we originally posted earlier.

    Welcome to 2/10/20. Mine was one of the early posts on this thread.

    Forgive me...for I have changed my mind. I am now a low octane (87)/10% ethanol user

    For the last three years or so, I have changed to 87 (the lowest available in most cases) octane. I notice NO change in performance. One other person (well known to most) has stated that it is because of the EFI system. In AK...there was no ethanol added.

    May of 2019 I moved to AR. I still use 87 octane and now it has 10% ethanol in it. My car, the Vulcan, and 2014 1330 and now the F3 all use the same....WITH NO NOTICABLE (TO ME) IMPAIRMENT TO THE PERFORMANCE OF ANY OF THE ENGINES. I have never heard a knock from any of them. Linda accuses me of driving to peppy and fast when we are riding the Spyders.

    Now that the thread has been revived (sort of), let the fireworks begin...again.

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    MY FINAL TALLY: 7 Spyders, 15 years, 205,500 miles

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    I use 91 ethanol free whenever I can. Bike LOVES it...…...

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    Very Active Member troop's Avatar
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    I also run 87 octane/10% ethanol during the riding season without issues/concerns. When the season is winding down and the rides are less frequent, I transition to 91 octane/100% gas to avoid moisture build up. I store with said fuel/stabilizer. Come riding season this year, I will be using a PV3 and upgraded map. I will then be required to run 91+ octane with said map. On my trips, I will switch the map back to stock for my there/back miles to save .50/gallon and up in fuel costs


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    Quote Originally Posted by troop View Post
    I also run 87 octane/10% ethanol during the riding season without issues/concerns. When the season is winding down and the rides are less frequent, I transition to 91 octane/100% gas to avoid moisture build up. I store with said fuel/stabilizer. Come riding season this year, I will be using a PV3 and upgraded map. I will then be required to run 91+ octane with said map. On my trips, I will switch the map back to stock for my there/back miles to save .50/gallon and up in fuel costs
    How much have you spent on your Spyder? $20k +? And all the money you have put in accessories and you are worried about saving 50 cents?!?!?
    It really is a sickness!
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  23. #48
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    1.) Locally by me, the diff between premium/regular is about .65/gallon
    2.) Can't tell any performance difference between 87 octane-ethanol/91+ octane-100% gas
    3.) Can-Am states 87 minimum/"recommends" 91+
    4.) Don't need total performance on interstates/freeways
    5.) Takes but a couple minutes to switch back/forth
    Why not ?


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    The 1330 engine has a compression ratio of 14:1 = 91 octane or higher. Your regular car or truck is around 9:1 or 10:1 = 87 octane. Perhaps you've noticed that when you downshift going into a twisty, the Spyder slows quite quickly because of that 14:1 compression ratio.
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    Very Active Member troop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revalden View Post
    The 1330 engine has a compression ratio of 14:1 = 91 octane or higher. Your regular car or truck is around 9:1 or 10:1 = 87 octane. Perhaps you've noticed that when you downshift going into a twisty, the Spyder slows quite quickly because of that 14:1 compression ratio.
    Again, this is straight out the owners manual for your machine. Obviously, a moot point if you made changes to your ECU via a flash/PCV/PV3.

    Type Premium unleaded gasoline
    87 Pump Posted AKI (RON+MON)/2 Minimum octane
    92 RON
    91 Pump Posted AKI (RON+MON)/2
    Fuel - Refer to
    FUEL REQUIREMENTS
    Recommended octane
    95 RON
    Fuel tank capacity 27 L (7.1 U.S. gal.)


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