NHTSA investigation update

[mastertek2000]

Vided, No what I am saying is the evap system does not work 100% if the Spyder is not shifted properly. It relies on the higher RPM because it is vacuum controlled. So if a person is putting around (which is nice to do some times) or short shifting it does not alow the evap system to do it's job 100%. If that happens it can contribute to the issue. Don't get me wrong as some have already done. I AM NOT SAYING it is the riders fault that the bike gets hot under the plastic OR that there is a gas smell to begin with, that is all BRP. What I am saying is by short shifting or putting around at low RPM's it can contribute to the issue.

i believe you are wrong there the evap system works on a negative vacuum it should only purge when you running down the road the constant wind going by the hose pulls vapors out the boiling gas makes it purge all the time

[AbNormy]

Craniac the clips gone or won't play

[hchays]

Mastertek2000, the purge valve only operates properly @ 5,000 rpm or above. If you do not hit that rpm regularly (Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you have to ride around at 5,000 rpm all the time) the evap system does not operate properly. It has nothing to do with air passing over the hoses.

[PMK]

Dave, I honestly don't even know how to respond without being a total Dick, and I don't want to come across that way with you. We've been over all of this before and SO much falls on deaf ears. People choose who they want to listen to and bash the rest. Whatever...
I'm just going to stop here and wish you all the best.....sincerely.

Agree, everyone needs to accept the fact that they may be wrong in their solution, proven facts are facts regarding the source of the heat and / or fumes. Strong egos will not solve the issue, maybe the government will, maybe not or maybe they will force something so extreme it all gets parked.

Regardless, there are some smart folks here, possibly smarter and more in tune with the true cause of the problem than BRP or the Government. Again, it may be time for the big bos to suck it up and stop testing and ask the real experts. Those that have resolved the problems. Then again, why should they...

FWIW, the rpm thing on the SE5, clutch engagement concern, one would expect that the problem may then be more noticed on an SM5.

Have those rapping ludest ever considered doing a poll in these forums...you know, what year machine, what model, what gearbox, where you live and ambient temps on a typical ride, one up or two up, a list of homegrown mods to select from and most importantly does the bike smell bad or has it burned to the ground.

Rather than bitch, and fight, help yourselves with a solid data base.

I truly suspect this one will go to court in a big class action law suit on top of the NHTSA findings and the inadequate means BRP failed to resolve the issue in a safe manner. It will get super ugly in court with words like negligence, and endangering life leading the pack.

Work together people...

The person I quoted is not an idiot in the tuning of these machines. Stop looking to fix a broken leg with a band aid. Listen to everyone with an open mind and opinion.

Has the NHTSA ever banned a vehicle from use on public roadways. A Spyder fire could be an endangerment to others, and these early may all get parked if it is not resolved.

Be careful and work together people, inbred fighting is not the answer!!!!

PK

[jcthorne]

Considering you don't know me, or anything about me, that is a LOT of assuming.....Just saying.
Oblivious huh?...[emoji23] alrighty then.....best of luck to you all....[emoji87]

Oblivious just means something could be occurring with out your being fully aware if it. Was not intended as an attack on your mental prowess. There was no offence intended in the use of that word.

[jcthorne]

Also I just want to point out that Drew and I are getting beat up by a couple of people that can't even post agreeing comments.

Jcthorne posts "There are over 100 documented cases that the NHTSA sent to BRP alone. The design defect is in ALL 2013 RTs"

Then Magdave posts "You do know there have been well over 25 bikes that have burned up don't you? Not all were 2013 models in fact the majority were not".

Come on guys if your going to try to prove a point at least agree on what your going to say....lol And just for the record I also own a 2013 with heat and gas fume issues...

Dave said there are 25 that have burned up, I said there were over 100 cases in the letter the NHTSA sent to BRP, not all 100 burned to the ground. Two different stats entirely.

[jcthorne]

Geez, another ELECTRONIC thread that is getting ugly because of a difference of CYBER opinion.
I'm going riding today.
Maybe shop for new ski gear that fits better since I've lost so much weight.

Oh, and as far as the topic at hand is concerned:

What hchays has stated about the evap canister and engine speed etc all makes sense to me.
The rider short shifting and riding slow probably adds to the fuel vapor issue.
That being the case, the Spyder should be built in a way that allows the rider to operate the vehicle slowly and by short shifting.

In my opinion, the route cause is prior to 2014, the Spyders were designed to be recreational vehicles.
Many of the issues that came up all point to that.
I think in 2010, BRP wanted to break into touring with the advent of the RT, but they emphasized comfort and accessory features without really addressing mechanical issues. I had some gas smell on my 2010 and some heat issues, but nothing of major import. Certainly nothing as great as some have reported, and not anything more than I ever had with any other motorcycle where the gas tank sat right over the engine.

I know the RT is a touring machine, but try "Touring" through Bridgeport at 7 am on the way to work.
Traffic is a daily occurrence, not just once a year riding in a parade and should be part of the design basis of ALL Spyders.

OK, now you can go back to fighting. Does anyone know what round this is ?

Nope, you are pretty much spot on.

Short shifting may indeed add to the problem, but only a very small amount. I do not short shift. Cant. Our RTs have been in trailer mode since the day they came home from the dealer. Simply cannot shift until the resulting RPM stays above 3500 RPM. RPM range simple cannot have anything to do with the gas fumes problem on our 2013s. Nor is it likely to have any real effect on the others, its just too small of a component.

Trouble is, even if the purge is working properly and fully purges the canister at each shift. Within minutes of sitting in traffic or after shutting the bike down, the system is overwhelmed with the quantity of vapors generated by the overheated fuel tank. As stated many times, the heat on the fuel tank is the problem, the evap system could never be designed to be large enough for the vapor load being thrown at it. Not even close, the canister would be the size of the bike. No, the evap system should not have been placed next to the engine and hot exhaust, but its big enough if the tank were not heated by the engine and exhaust.

The heat needs to get out and the tank needs to be protected from the heat that is still there. Reduce the quantity of vapors at the source and the evap system would likely work fine as designed. Perhaps even its location once the heat is lowered. The 2014 design with the evap can in the rear is a better design and may be were we are headed. At least for the 2013s as there is no battery in the way back there. The heat needs to be solved first.

[Craniac]

Craniac the clips gone or won't play

I hooked a hose to the evap overflow then hit it with an ignition source.
2013 ST with several heat mods. It is not as severe now as when I first got the bike.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AbNormy]

So much for EPA questions!


Living the dream while I still can!

[hchays]

Jcthorne, I'm not sure why you insist on arguing with everything I say. I don't know you, you don't know me so I'm not sure what your problem is and really don't care anymore. You argued with me, but agreed with PMK when they agreed with my statement WTF.... Anyway, if you want to continue to attack me because you don't agree with what I say, but agree with people that agree with what I say then keep on attacking by yourself. I'm getting a shower, hopping on my 2013 Spyder and going for a ride. Winter is closing in and we will have plenty of time to argue in the next few months.

[Jeriatric]

For years and years, post after agonizing post, all of the problems BRP is now being required to respond to have been presented here ad nauseum.

Who knows why BRP failed to properly address the problems. It could be the severity of them was never properly presented to top management. Or, if they were, a concious decision was made to not address them. What ever the case. They are now being forced to answer for them.

The horse is out of the barn. Many here knew it was only a matter of time before it happened, and pleaded with BRP to stop it. They did not. I, for one, will now let them look for their horse.

[Bob Denman]

Folks: it seems to be getting a bit "testy" in here...
Why not let everybody cool-off a bit, and tackle this mess from another direction?
JC is right...
Gather up an accurate pile of information first!
Find out what machknes are manifesting which problems, and then move forward from there.
Shouldn't we all be on the same team anyway? Fighting amongst ourselves is just a waste of valuable time.

[PMK]

Jcthorne, I'm not sure why you insist on arguing with everything I say. I don't know you, you don't know me so I'm not sure what your problem is and really don't care anymore. You argued with me, but agreed with PMK when they agreed with my statement WTF.... Anyway, if you want to continue to attack me because you don't agree with what I say, but agree with people that agree with what I say then keep on attacking by yourself. I'm getting a shower, hopping on my 2013 Spyder and going for a ride. Winter is closing in and we will have plenty of time to argue in the next few months.

I'm not sure if he agreed or did not agree, and honestly this should not be an issue for anyone posting here. First off, the wife and I own a 2014, so we are partially exempt from BRP's attitude, but still suffer on other matters BRP.

Overall folks, I read and see what is posted, then cringe as the bickering happens. I am no coach, but must be honest, play as a team, drop the egos or this will be over before it starts.

From discussions via PM's the heat, fumes and possibly fires are based on possibly several factors.

Before this topic gets locked, someone should steer the course to gather real data and let others (BRP and NHTSA) read worthy information, not bickering and muscle flexing, as you waive your hands telling others to get off the lawn.

Seriously, take a deep breathe and see how this all looks to an outsider looking in.

The best that will happen is the problem is resolved and none of you suffer a loss in value or loss via fire.

Not that I prefer to quote famous people, but as said before "a house divided will not stand". Suck it up and fight together, none of you are strong enough to beat BRP on their homefield. If another fire occurs and someone dies, it may be over for at least the 2013 and prior models.

All the best with it people.

PK

[Bob Denman]

An Old Klingon Proverb: "Only fools fight in a burning house"; comes to mind...

[KX5062]

I read and see what is posted, then cringe as the bickering happens.

PK

Yep.

[AppleSpyder]

Would this help?

"doing a poll in these forums...you know, what year machine, what model, what gearbox, where you live and ambient temps on a typical ride, one up or two up, a list of homegrown mods to select from and most importantly does the bike smell bad or has it burned to the ground."

I am not sure if the information we could gather here would be of any help or not. Would BRP look at it or would NHTSA even consider it if it wasn't filed as a complaint? I have no idea and I am just wondering if we can do something to help in some way. If we could/would gather the information who would we submit it to?

[cognaccruiser]

Yep.

Ditto that.

Infighting and bickering not productive.

Gary

[Magdave]

Disagreement is fine just keep it respectful. Sometimes reading threads a person cannot detect the tone of the voice and that is the bane of internet posting. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion but lets keep it on topic I do not want to see this thread closed it is too important to all 2013 and prior owners.

The problems and solutions we.... Most of the solutions that have worked well were costly which is why I believe BRP hasn't done them. Sure less expensive "fixes" have helped reduce the fire danger but not as much as is needed. Ceramic coated headers, proper fuel tank insulation, CAT insulated cover and more engine bay airflow is the solution. We shall see what BRP trots out to solve this long standing problem. I hope it happens by next summer...

[Bob Denman]

[QUOTE=AppleSpyder;894999]Would this help?

"doing a poll in these forums...you know, what year machine, what model, what gearbox, where you live and ambient temps on a typical ride, one up or two up, a list of homegrown mods to select from and most importantly does the bike smell bad or has it burned to the ground."
QUOTE]
I think that would be a GREATstart!

[SpyderBandit]

I am fairly new to the Spyder world having bought my 09 phantom this past spring. Although I love the machine and still own a 2 wheeler, I must say I would have been hesitant to by a Spyder if I had read threads like this. I wonder how many potential sales BRP is losing from threads like this one.

[Rick11Flor]

I too have requested BRP fix my bike and did a lemon law suite on this issue. And BRP has done nothing to repair this issue. I hope this fixes all our issues and BRP. can get back to doing business like they should have from the start. By helping thous unsatisfied customer's.

rick&flor. thank you all

[SpyderAnn01]

I am fairly new to the Spyder world having bought my 09 phantom this past spring. Although I love the machine and still own a 2 wheeler, I must say I would have been hesitant to by a Spyder if I had read threads like this. I wonder how many potential sales BRP is losing from threads like this one.

Not many as most people are like you and don't do research before they buy.

I too have requested BRP fix my bike and did a lemon law suite on this issue. And BRP has done nothing to repair this issue. I hope this fixes all our issues and BRP. can get back to doing business like they should have from the start. By helping thous unsatisfied customer's.

rick&flor. thank you all

So what happened with the Lemon Law Suit? You say they have done nothing to repair your Spyder, were they ordered to repair it or did you lose the lawsuit?

[Bob Denman]

What was the dispositon of this case?
We're not getting the entire story...

[jcthorne]

Jcthorne, I'm not sure why you insist on arguing with everything I say. I don't know you, you don't know me so I'm not sure what your problem is and really don't care anymore. You argued with me, but agreed with PMK when they agreed with my statement WTF.... Anyway, if you want to continue to attack me because you don't agree with what I say, but agree with people that agree with what I say then keep on attacking by yourself. I'm getting a shower, hopping on my 2013 Spyder and going for a ride. Winter is closing in and we will have plenty of time to argue in the next few months.

Honestly, I am not trying to argue with you although it may seem that way. I am not attacking you. Trying to get the word out on where the 2013 problems lie. Seems we each make statements the other does not read the way intended. Somewhere in between the answer lies. The only entity I would like to attack is BRP for letting the problem go unanswered for so long and blaming the owners for their own design deficiencies.

Please do not consider my remarks as attacks on you or siding with PMK. I do not know either of you and frankly feel we would likely get along fine in person. Both of you seem very technically capable. Good folks to know. Sorry if I get a bit worked up on this subject. We own 2 2013 RTs. That a good deal of coin tied up in BRP products to have so little support and watch all the new toys and features rolled out and folks that came after us having fun when our Spyders are defective and BRP is ignoring the problem. When folks on this forum try and blame the owners, it rubs salt in a VERY sore wound.

[PMK]

Would this help?

"doing a poll in these forums...you know, what year machine, what model, what gearbox, where you live and ambient temps on a typical ride, one up or two up, a list of homegrown mods to select from and most importantly does the bike smell bad or has it burned to the ground."

I am not sure if the information we could gather here would be of any help or not. Would BRP look at it or would NHTSA even consider it if it wasn't filed as a complaint? I have no idea and I am just wondering if we can do something to help in some way. If we could/would gather the information who would we submit it to?

Here's the thing, baby steps like a poll of whatever items or criteria would at least group or lump the data in one spot. No need to present it to anyone or plan to, rather let those that have done nothing and have no issues have their spot, those people that have insulated items have their spot and those that have retuned have their spot, all within the same pole. May not even hurt to have it where those this did accomplish mods and the machined burned to also have a box to check.

Possibly a true forum type poll is not the best format, maybe a means to have a spreadsheet that can follow with each post. Consider also to limit the posts to just completing the spreadsheet. Keep words or post dry to minimize excess that can lead to bickering.

Sometimes, making another persons job easy gets solid results.

PK