NHTSA investigation update

[Magdave]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned very early in my post that it is not only an RT issue..... I was speaking of the ST/RS portion of the problem when I said they relocated the cat. I think you are the one that's mis-informed if you think the designed shift point is 3,500 rpm. I have spoken to 2 different service managers and someone that is much more informed about the situation than anyone on this site and my numbers have been confirmed. If your riding and shifting at a low RPM it does not allow the evap system to operate properly thus creating issues. I in no way said that the NHTSA says it's okay to have fumes emitting from the bike, but if the rider is not riding it the way it is suppose to be ridden then yes it is partially the riders fault. With your way of thinking if a rider with a manual clutch slips the clutch everytime they shift or at every stop light they are not to be held responsible for a burnt up clutch. I also CLEARLY said that BRP has blame in this issue!!
So do not attack my post if you do not read it. It is BRP's fault for the design and that the Spyders are getting hot, but if a rider does not ride it like it is designed to be ridden then they are contributing to the issue! So stop trying to blame EVERYTHING on someone else and acknowledge that SOME people CONTRIBUTE (not the total blame) the problem.

Well I NEVER ride under 5k RPM and I have all the issues. To paint yourself as the know all be all does not impress me there are plenty of us that have as much experience and knowledge as you. There is very little blame on the riders if any. Even riding it wrong will not make it run hotter and spew more fumes. You can let it idle in the driveway and get fumes. This thread is about BRP's responsibility not who has the most knowledge. It is not a debate about what the riders do wrong. It is simply an update on what is in the works. Thanks for your input.

[Dragonrider]

Perhaps just removing the two side panels will alleviate the problem (AKA the F3) - If BRP told the dealers to do that, would that be acceptable? It would certainly get the heat out.... as in all things mechanical, there is no perfect end point for everyone. Someone will continue to be unhappy.

[ekfraz]

The gas fumes give me an upset stomach at times, the heat is the real problem. just a little vomit and burns on my inner thighs and gasoline boilimg, I am glad that gas does not burn.

[Deanna777]

My first spyder was a 2012RTS-SE5 I did not have any gas smell problems, traded it for a 2014RTS-SE6 Cognac, I like the new 1330 ACE Engine and all of the upgrades that BRP did.

Best of luck to the owners that have gas smell issues and ect. I am not going to say any more on this subject. Deanna

[vided]

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this topic, but I can't. There are several issues with the fuel smell (not all BRP's fault and certainly not the NHTSA's fault)! Yes, the Spyders do get hot under the plastic panels due to (my assumption) positioning of the cat converter. The 2013's tend to have more issues because that was the year BRP decided to take the cat out of the muffler and stuff it in the engine compartment. It is not just an RT issue (I know it's hard for a lot of RT owners to except that there is other models made). HOWEVER, here is where ALOT of Spyder riders (mostly RT riders) are at fault also. Posted in many threads are riders talking about shifting at low RPM's and riding at slow speeds (falling behind the other riders in groups) "because they want to enjoy the ride". There is no shame in wanting to enjoy the ride, I think we all do. But, It has been clearly stated by BRP and dealer service departments that it is recommended to shift at 5,000-5,500 RPM in order for the charcoal canister and evap system to work properly. If you are putting around (as many have stated they like to do) then your going to have issues with the system no matter what is done to solve the heat issue. So people can point the finger at BRP (and they certainly have some blame in this), but if your putting around on your Spyder it's time to start pointing the finger at yourself as well....

Are you saying spyders cannot be ridden slow. That makes no sense to me. Jmho

[Magdave]

Are you saying spyders cannot be ridden slow. That makes no sense to me. Jmho

In reality a SE5 should not be ridden under 20mph for very long. That is around the clutch lock up speed. The SM5 is a better parade vehicle. This has changed with the 2014 SE's since it has a hydraulic clutch vs centrifugal on pre 2014's.

[vided]

In reality a SE5 should not be ridden under 20mph for very long. That is around the clutch lock up speed. The SM5 is a better parade vehicle. This has changed with the 2014 SE's since it has a hydraulic clutch vs centrifugal on pre 2014's.

That i understand.
it was the post about riding slow adds to the gas fume problem that didn't sound right.

[SpyderAnn01]

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this topic, but I can't. There are several issues with the fuel smell (not all BRP's fault and certainly not the NHTSA's fault)! Yes, the Spyders do get hot under the plastic panels due to (my assumption) positioning of the cat converter. The 2013's tend to have more issues because that was the year BRP decided to take the cat out of the muffler and stuff it in the engine compartment. It is not just an RT issue (I know it's hard for a lot of RT owners to except that there is other models made). HOWEVER, here is where ALOT of Spyder riders (mostly RT riders) are at fault also. Posted in many threads are riders talking about shifting at low RPM's and riding at slow speeds (falling behind the other riders in groups) "because they want to enjoy the ride". There is no shame in wanting to enjoy the ride, I think we all do. But, It has been clearly stated by BRP and dealer service departments that it is recommended to shift at 5,000-5,500 RPM in order for the charcoal canister and evap system to work properly. If you are putting around (as many have stated they like to do) then your going to have issues with the system no matter what is done to solve the heat issue. So people can point the finger at BRP (and they certainly have some blame in this), but if your putting around on your Spyder it's time to start pointing the finger at yourself as well....

I have never been accused of "putting around" and I always shifted my 2013 at high RPM and my Spyder went up in flames. If you point your finger at me I just might break it off.

[wcricks]

If the letter from NHTSA to BRP was sent to me I would be nervous. I is going to cost a fortune just to provide the documents they requested. Hopefully, BRP will recall the units with heat issues and fix. If they stonewall lets hope the NHTSA starts issuing daily fines.

Anyone who owns a vehicle with these problems should file a report if they have not done so.

Here is a NHTSA PDF dated 10/16 asking BRP to provide EVERTHING ever reported about the heat and fuel smell issues. Sounds like they have an idea what they want to see it is very detailed and specific. It is 14 pages long so be prepared to do a little reading. It seems they are concentrating on the EVAP overflow, excess heat (boiling gas) and MC and asked if pre 2014 owners will get the 2014 body panels (RT's) plus a whole lot more. They want to know what BRP knew about any of this and when they knew it. BRP must reply by Dec 5 and they mean business in closing they said

"BRP's failure to respond promptly and fully to this letter could subject BRP to civil penalties
pursuant to 49 U.S.C. § 30165 or lead to an action for injunctive relief pursuant to 49 U.S.C. §
30163. (Other remedies and sanctions are available as well.) The Vehicle Safety Act, as
amended, 49 U.S.C. § 30165(a), provides for civil penalties of up to $7,000 per day, with a
maximum of $17,350,000 for a related series of violations, for failing or refusing to perform an

act required under 49 U.S.C. § 30166. See 49 CFR 578.6 (as amended by 77 Fed. Reg. 70710



(November 27, 2012)). This includes failing to respond completely to ODI information requests.
If BRP cannot respond to any specific request or subpart(s) thereof, please state the reason why it
is unable to do so. If on the basis of attorney-client, attorney work product, or other privilege,
BRP does not submit one or more requested documents or items of information in response to
this information request, BRP must provide a privilege log identifying each document or item
withheld, and stating the date, subject or title, the name and position of the person(s) from, and
the person(s) to whom it was sent, and the name and position of any other recipient (to include
all carbon copies or blind carbon copies), the nature of that information or material, and the basis
for the claim of privilege and why that privilege applies.



http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs...4025-60435.pdf

[Jeriatric]

I have never been accused of "putting around" and I always shifted my 2013 at high RPM and my Spyder went up in flames. If you point your finger at me I just might break it off.

we second that.

[hchays]

Magdave, It's funny how I'm a know it all because I posted something you don't agree with. I never claimed to be a know it all. However what I said about short shifting and putting is indeed a fact that you somewhat agreed on in a later post about 20 mph and under. I as well am not amused the least bit by people that can't let someone state facts. FYI.. I have as much if not more knowledge about the NHTSA investigation than anyone on this site. Not here to debate that either, just another fact.


Vided, No what I am saying is the evap system does not work 100% if the Spyder is not shifted properly. It relies on the higher RPM because it is vacuum controlled. So if a person is putting around (which is nice to do some times) or short shifting it does not alow the evap system to do it's job 100%. If that happens it can contribute to the issue. Don't get me wrong as some have already done. I AM NOT SAYING it is the riders fault that the bike gets hot under the plastic OR that there is a gas smell to begin with, that is all BRP. What I am saying is by short shifting or putting around at low RPM's it can contribute to the issue.


SpyderAnn01/Jerbear, If you are not one that short shifts or putts around then my post had nothing to do with you. As far as that goes it had nothing to do with anyone that does not do either of those things. So why doesn't everyone relax and use my post as education for people that may not know you should not short shift or just putt around all the time. Facts are facts it is not helping the situation by doing that. So if you would actually read my post I did not point my finger at you.....

Bottom line is it is an issue that BRP created and I think is trying to fix, but they are moving at a snails pace in hopes that it will just go away. I for one am thankful the NHTSA has done their investigation and is perusing BRP (w/o their help I would not have gotten my 2014 side panels). I feel real bad for the people that have had actual fires, because I know I would be pissed! I did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings with my original post, but if your going to attack me for stating facts don't expect me to sit back and take it.

[DrewNJ]

I'm still waiting to hear, why if this is a design defect for the complete spyder lineup, does it only affect a very small percentage of machines on the road??
Seems like there are about a dozen...maybe? I know some of you have some real problems with your machines...no doubt. However, Lots more of us don't have issues and are completely happy.
Not trying to pick a fight, just a conversation...

[Bob Denman]

Perhaps just removing the two side panels will alleviate the problem (AKA the F3) - If BRP told the dealers to do that, would that be acceptable? It would certainly get the heat out.... as in all things mechanical, there is no perfect end point for everyone. Someone will continue to be unhappy.

I once asked about that...
The answer I got, was that it forced airflow from up under the seat; throwing more heat on the rider.

[jcthorne]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned very early in my post that it is not only an RT issue..... I was speaking of the ST/RS portion of the problem when I said they relocated the cat. I think you are the one that's mis-informed if you think the designed shift point is 3,500 rpm. I have spoken to 2 different service managers and someone that is much more informed about the situation than anyone on this site and my numbers have been confirmed. If your riding and shifting at a low RPM it does not allow the evap system to operate properly thus creating issues. I in no way said that the NHTSA says it's okay to have fumes emitting from the bike, but if the rider is not riding it the way it is suppose to be ridden then yes it is partially the riders fault. With your way of thinking if a rider with a manual clutch slips the clutch everytime they shift or at every stop light they are not to be held responsible for a burnt up clutch. I also CLEARLY said that BRP has blame in this issue!!
So do not attack my post if you do not read it. It is BRP's fault for the design and that the Spyders are getting hot, but if a rider does not ride it like it is designed to be ridden then they are contributing to the issue! So stop trying to blame EVERYTHING on someone else and acknowledge that SOME people CONTRIBUTE (not the total blame) the problem.

Sorry but now its you that is not reading what others post before responding. I said keeping rpms above 3500 when riding, not shifting at 3500. What I said is EXACTLY what BRP recommends. Again, this fuel vapor problem is 100% a design defect, it is NOT THE OWNERS FAULT. Please, its time the community at large quit trying to tell the 2013 owners its our own fault. Its not over filling the fuel tank, its not riding too slow, or shifting too soon. ITS BRPS DESIGN DEFECT. And they need to fix it.

[jcthorne]

we second that.

I 3rd that.....Thanks Anne.

[jcthorne]

I'm still waiting to hear, why if this is a design defect for the complete spyder lineup, does it only affect a very small percentage of machines on the road??
Seems like there are about a dozen...maybe? I know some of you have some real problems with your machines...no doubt. However, Lots more of us don't have issues and are completely happy.
Not trying to pick a fight, just a conversation...

There are over 100 documented cases that the NHTSA sent to BRP alone. The design defect is in ALL 2013 RTs. The difference is some owners cannot smell gasoline fumes in lower quantities (its a known fact that a large percentage of the population cannot smell gasoline at concentrations just below the lower explosive limit). Just because you don't smell a problem does not mean its not there. Only a hydrocarbon detector is reliable enough to tell us that. Still, its FAR more than a dozen complaining.

Again, just because you are 'completely happy' does not mean your bike is not violating emissions laws and does not mean it wont burn the bike and your garage to the ground. It just means you are oblivious to the symptoms other are complaining about. This is why the NHTSA is making such a big deal about it.

[DrewNJ]

Again, just because you are 'completely happy' does not mean your bike is not violating emissions laws and does not mean it wont burn the bike and your garage to the ground. It just means you are oblivious to the symptoms other are complaining about. This is why the NHTSA is making such a big deal about it.

Considering you don't know me, or anything about me, that is a LOT of assuming.....Just saying.
Oblivious huh?...[emoji23] alrighty then.....best of luck to you all....[emoji87]

[Magdave]

I'm still waiting to hear, why if this is a design defect for the complete spyder lineup, does it only affect a very small percentage of machines on the road??
Seems like there are about a dozen...maybe? I know some of you have some real problems with your machines...no doubt. However, Lots more of us don't have issues and are completely happy.
Not trying to pick a fight, just a conversation...

You do know there have been well over 25 bikes that have burned up don't you? Not all were 2013 models in fact the majority were not. Various "blames" and "fixes" have been trotted out over the years including gas caps () and short hoses none of which corrected the underlying problem which is excess heat and lack of engine bay ventilation. The next question is how much $$ has been spent by BRP and owners fixing various failures that were caused by the heat including hoses, parking brakes, electronics and wiring issues?.

[DrewNJ]

Dave, I honestly don't even know how to respond without being a total Dick, and I don't want to come across that way with you. We've been over all of this before and SO much falls on deaf ears. People choose who they want to listen to and bash the rest. Whatever...
I'm just going to stop here and wish you all the best.....sincerely.

[hchays]

Also I just want to point out that Drew and I are getting beat up by a couple of people that can't even post agreeing comments.

Jcthorne posts "There are over 100 documented cases that the NHTSA sent to BRP alone. The design defect is in ALL 2013 RTs"

Then Magdave posts "You do know there have been well over 25 bikes that have burned up don't you? Not all were 2013 models in fact the majority were not".

Come on guys if your going to try to prove a point at least agree on what your going to say....lol And just for the record I also own a 2013 with heat and gas fume issues...

[Magdave]

Magdave, I was referring to you agreeing that putting is bad and I quote "In reality a SE5 should not be ridden under 20mph for very long".

Also I just want to point out that Drew and I are getting beat up by a couple of people that can't even post agreeing comments.

Jcthorne posts "There are over 100 documented cases that the NHTSA sent to BRP alone. The design defect is in ALL 2013 RTs"

Then Magdave posts "You do know there have been well over 25 bikes that have burned up don't you? Not all were 2013 models in fact the majority were not".

Come on guys if your going to try to prove a point at least agree on what your going to say....lol And just for the record I also own a 2013 with heat and gas fume issues...

If you read the letter it is for ALL years they are investigating especially since the 2011 police bike flamed on. The 2013 because of the frame design is more prevalent in having the issues there really is a difference in available airflow room on a 2013 over previous years. I thought both you and Drew knew the facts involved here there have been hundreds of posts about the 2013 differences. My quote on the 20 mph pertained to SE models only and not because of heat it is because of tranny issues. You can lug a SM if you want to but performance will suffer due to being in the lower torque range.It also is not good for the clutch disks. I did not support your theory about faster higher revs means less heat, We all have to stop at lights and stop signs don't we? If you go to the NHTSA reporting sight and look for 2013 Spyder you will see the # of reports on it. I have never looked for other years but I assume there are more.

[hchays]

I am one of the 2013 complaints.... I also never said higher RPM's would create less heat. I said that the evap system operates with vacuum and it relies on the higher RPM's to operate properly.

[Magdave]

I am one of the 2013 complaints.... I also never said higher RPM's would create less heat. I said that the evap system operates with vacuum and it replies on the higher RPM's to operate properly.

You are absolutely correct my understanding is the purge valve works at ~ 5k I get what you were trying to say now. I have wondered before if it could be set to open at a lower RPM my self. In fact I generally rev my engine up there before shut down( in N) hoping the valve does open and suck a little pressure out.

[hchays]

You are absolutely correct my understanding is the purge valve works at ~ 5k I get what you were trying to say now. I have wondered before if it could be set to open at a lower RPM my self. In fact I generally rev my engine up there before shut down hoping the valve does open and suck a little pressure out.

I agree it should be set to open at a lower RPM. Probably more like 3,500 - 4,000 would be better suited for the majority of riders.

[Magdave]

I agree it should be set to open at a lower RPM. Probably more like 3,500 - 4,000 would be better suited for the majority of riders.

The other perplexing thing to me there is no purge valve failure code so no one can tell if it is even working.