NHTSA investigation update

[robmorg]

I hope this does not turn out like it did for the Corvair, or like it did for the Geo Tracker. Both were fine cars--for what they were-- and both are off the market now. You can't buy a Citroen in the U.S., and can't get a street legal Polaris (off-road) either.

I enjoy joy my Spyder. I hope it does not become only a memory.

Dan,

I'm with you, but I'm not too concerned. We are all blaming BRP for not being proactive enough on this issue. But where they WERE proactive was in not allowing the problem to propagate into future models. One way you can look at this is that 2014 was the "test year" for the RT. Problem solved. 2015, with the introduction of the F3, was the "test year" for permanently resolving the issue for the rest of the line. I'm fairly sure that what we will see beginning in 2016 is all new models being based on the F3 frame. I'm not saying that everything will look like the 2015 F3. However I'm guessing that the forward high gas tank, the exhaust system changes, and the 1330 style engine housed in an un-cramped engine compartment, will follow through to all future models. Some models (if perhaps just the RT) will probably be a meld of the design features of the 2014/2015 RT and the F3.

Bottom line, the problem was stopped and not going forward. They took steps to insure the integrity of the continuation of the Can-Am line. Now what they've got to do is concentrate on fixing the affected models already on the street.

[robmorg]

I thought just about everyone was having the gas smell problem. Are you thinking we all should be filing complaints regarding the smell?

Jill,

That's not so, and this has been one of the most perplexing things about this issue. I have a 2013 RT that has exhibited the boiling gas on one, maybe two occasions in over 5000 miles. (None since wrapping the headers and shielding the fuel tank with reflective heat tape.) I have NEVER experienced canister overflow and leaking fuel. I HAVE experienced a LOT of excess heat coming up around the seat and have taken steps to curtail that problem. So there's no reason for me to file a complaint. Whatever improvements I get from the recall (or reimbursement for work already performed by my dealer) will be gravy for me - even if it is "much appreciated" gravy. I think perhaps that the diversity of owner experiences has been partially responsible for the seeming delay in action from BRP.

[snics]

http://can-am.brp.com/spyder/owners/...in-lookup.html

on facebook BRP guy posted this link ......follow this link to see if your Spyder is in a recall.....mine had no recalls.....really??? just curious if any spyder shows a recall

Only works for Spyder's sold in the US.....
Not very useful fir us Canadians.....

[flaggerphil]

This is great news they have to step up now what really get me is all the dealers from what i read when you ask them if this is a common problem they all say the same thing i never heard of this before yup OK lets hope justice will be served i am about ready to trade my 2013 because of the fuel smell been to the dealer 2 times on more time then i will file a lemon law this surelly will help anyone that wants file a lemon law on their bike

Punctuation is your friend.

[03hdjill]

Why would you file a complaint if you don't have issues and only based on info your reading on an internet forum??

I've had no issues with my 12'. No issues with a real good friends 11' either. Actually, no complaints with my 12' at all. Its been one of the best, most reliable machines I've ever owned!

Drew, That is not what I said. I have always had the gas smell with my ST Limited and my husband has always had it with his 2012 RTS. ( two different models, two different years) From talking with many other people, the smell seemed to be something most people have had. I was just asking if the other person felt that everyone should be filing complaints.

[flaggerphil]

All this talk of fires and getting ready to pop makes you worry. I hope my 2012 LTD is in good shape. I don't want to ride in fear, and spending the kind of money for these machines, you shouldn't have to ride in fear. I hope BRP comes up with something good to relieve the owners and we can get back to enjoying these wonderful bikes and not worry, but just ride and have fun.

I think it depends on the person and the bike they have. Some bikes have been bad...most (I think) have not (I'm excluding 2013's here). I have a 2011 RT-AC and have never had serious problems with it. I've never had heat problems with it. The relatively minor problems I've had have been fixed by my dealer and BRP very quickly and efficiently.

I'm not saying others haven't had problems and I don't bash those that do (though I've said a thing or two to people who have problems and complain instead of trying to get them fixed...but that's another thread). But I haven't and have been very happy with my RT.

I never ride in fear.

[03hdjill]

Jill,

That's not so, and this has been one of the most perplexing things about this issue. I have a 2013 RT that has exhibited the boiling gas on one, maybe two occasions in over 5000 miles. (None since wrapping the headers and shielding the fuel tank with reflective heat tape.) I have NEVER experienced canister overflow and leaking fuel. I HAVE experienced a LOT of excess heat coming up around the seat and have taken steps to curtail that problem. So there's no reason for me to file a complaint. Whatever improvements I get from the recall (or reimbursement for work already performed by my dealer) will be gravy for me - even if it is "much appreciated" gravy. I think perhaps that the diversity of owner experiences has been partially responsible for the seeming delay in action from BRP.

Rob,
My ST Limited did not have the heat around the seat until the recall work was completed. After that, the heat was extreme. I took photos of the readings and gave them to my dealer. I also had the boiling gas. BRP replaced the panels. I noticed right away after that, that the heat was not gone. It was moved from the seat area down to the lower panel near my calf. (and the heat has always been on the left side) I told my dealer, but nothing was ever done. They said that they would talk to BRP, but they could not come up with a remedy. I now just position my leg away from the bike.

Don't get me wrong, I love my bike. I have 13,000 miles on it and ride every chance I get. It is hot,though...and it smells like gas.

[Magdave]

Drew, That is not what I said. I have always had the gas smell with my ST Limited and my husband has always had it with his 2012 RTS. ( two different models, two different years) From talking with many other people, the smell seemed to be something most people have had. I was just asking if the other person felt that everyone should be filing complaints.

Short answer is if you have had fuel smell and were afraid to close the garage door after a ride YES. If you read the document BRP and their dealers have told NHTSA other bikes drip fuel and have fuel smells after a ride. NHTSA told them to tell them which ones. I have owned 5- 2 wheelers and none of them have done what my 2013 does. I never had gas dripping on my garage floor. They are asking BRP for their CARB documents any bike that spews fumes like the 2013 does after an hour ride could not possibly pass CARB regulations nor EPA for that matter. The purpose of the evap system is to PREVENT gas fumes from venting to atmosphere . If the amount of fumes overwhelms the canister the system is a failure. If the canister were cool a lot less (if not all) fumes would condense in it rather than vent through it. The canister location is bad (it gets HOT) as well as the size of it IMHO.

[DrewNJ]

...

[Dragonrider]

The financial hit to BRP may end the line - Honda has never recovered from the ATC fiasco.... They went from #1 to an also ran...

I'm really curious about the real numbers and impact. After the upgraded tubing, I never saw the problem on my 2010 again...

[jerpinoy]

Thanks for this information and I'll just wait for now, If boiling gas was taking care off most fumes would have gone away. Just my two cents.

[2RTsGV]

You should not have been sent a recall letter.

U.S. Federal law prohibits a dealer from selling a recalled vehicle without first performing the recall work. S

Since the recall was released in September, 2013 and you did not buy your Spyder until March of 2014, it is most likely that the recall work had been completed before you bought it. It is very easy to tell . . . pop off the Tupperware on the right side and look at your master cylinder. If it is plain white plastic on top, the work was not done. If it is wrapped with insulation, it was done . . .

Thank you, I will do as you suggest this weekend

[Magdave]

Thanks for this information and I'll just wait for now, If boiling gas was taking care off most fumes would have gone away. Just my two cents.

Boiling gas is the root of the problem.

[DrewNJ]

...

[Raknid]

It is not just the '13s. Our 2012 has to sit in driveway after long rides... or the garage and living area reek of gasoline.

[jcthorne]

They all can have the problem given the right circumstances. The 2013s are a bit worse due to the reconfiguration of the frame and suspension redesign. The 13 has even less air flow through the engine bay and fuel tank area than previous years. So more folks have experienced the required heat load to vaporize the fuel in the tank. Still there are LOTS of owners that swear they do not have the problem. And yet I can clearly smell the fumes when they pull up and park in a group of bike at owners events. Many folks CANNOT smell gasoline vapors in low concentration. The vapors are still there and just as flammable.

Its a design defect they ALL have. and they ALL need to be fixed by BRP. the evaporative emissions system does not meet federal requirements. Its as simple as that. The recall will require that it does. That $7000 a day fine mentioned in the letter for delay of the response is peanuts compared to what the EPA will levy if they are found to have falsified emissions certifications. And it will be a continuous and ongoing fine until they are all fixed or reacquired. ALL. BRP has a thin line to walk here and needs to appear cooperative or it could get very ugly in the current NHTSA climate.

[CruiseRT]

My 2013 has always had the heat problem. When I took it back for the band-aid recall they found the evap canister almost burned completely through. Since that I have always used a box fan to cool it down after a ride. If you look under it after a ride, even if you have just filled it up with cool gas you can still see the fuel vapors coming from the vent hose (big time), this is every time I ride. With what I know now about the Spyder I wish I had spent my money on something else, and if BRP does not come up with a real fix, not just patch something with tin foil, it will be the last Spyder I will own.

[hchays]

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this topic, but I can't. There are several issues with the fuel smell (not all BRP's fault and certainly not the NHTSA's fault)! Yes, the Spyders do get hot under the plastic panels due to (my assumption) positioning of the cat converter. The 2013's tend to have more issues because that was the year BRP decided to take the cat out of the muffler and stuff it in the engine compartment. It is not just an RT issue (I know it's hard for a lot of RT owners to except that there is other models made). HOWEVER, here is where ALOT of Spyder riders (mostly RT riders) are at fault also. Posted in many threads are riders talking about shifting at low RPM's and riding at slow speeds (falling behind the other riders in groups) "because they want to enjoy the ride". There is no shame in wanting to enjoy the ride, I think we all do. But, It has been clearly stated by BRP and dealer service departments that it is recommended to shift at 5,000-5,500 RPM in order for the charcoal canister and evap system to work properly. If you are putting around (as many have stated they like to do) then your going to have issues with the system no matter what is done to solve the heat issue. So people can point the finger at BRP (and they certainly have some blame in this), but if your putting around on your Spyder it's time to start pointing the finger at yourself as well....

[Craniac]

I hooked a hose up to my evap canister vent after a ride. Then hit the vapor with an ignition source.
This is NOT safe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jaherbst]

Agree 100%. The internet, and specifically these forums tend to really make it sound like the world is coming to an end. Remember, the majority of spyder riders have no idea what "spyderlovers" is and ride without giving it a second thought....the majority I'm sure are quite happy.

You must be saying then that ignorance is bliss!

Jack

[jaherbst]

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this topic, but I can't. There are several issues with the fuel smell (not all BRP's fault and certainly not the NHTSA's fault)! Yes, the Spyders do get hot under the plastic panels due to (my assumption) positioning of the cat converter. The 2013's tend to have more issues because that was the year BRP decided to take the cat out of the muffler and stuff it in the engine compartment. It is not just an RT issue (I know it's hard for a lot of RT owners to except that there is other models made). HOWEVER, here is where ALOT of Spyder riders (mostly RT riders) are at fault also. Posted in many threads are riders talking about shifting at low RPM's and riding at slow speeds (falling behind the other riders in groups) "because they want to enjoy the ride". There is no shame in wanting to enjoy the ride, I think we all do. But, It has been clearly stated by BRP and dealer service departments that it is recommended to shift at 5,000-5,500 RPM in order for the charcoal canister and evap system to work properly. If you are putting around (as many have stated they like to do) then your going to have issues with the system no matter what is done to solve the heat issue. So people can point the finger at BRP (and they certainly have some blame in this), but if your putting around on your Spyder it's time to start pointing the finger at yourself as well....

Unfortunately you are terribly mis informed on the whole matter. Retrofitting the 998 engine in the new frame because the 1330 was not ready is the main reason for the problems. Not enough space and air for the front exhaust that runs back and under the gas tank by 1 1/2 to 2 inches. Removing the CAT does nothing. I tried that also. Did not work. I was also a test source for BRP's latest campaign to solve this problem. This did not work either.

PS: If you knew how I ride you could hardly "paint" me as "putting" around. This is a real problem that has been more severe on the 2013 because of the above. I see you do not own an RT. You need to walk a mile in these moccasins before making the above remarks or get better informed. No disrespect meant here only seeking the truth.

Jack

[jcthorne]

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this topic, but I can't. There are several issues with the fuel smell (not all BRP's fault and certainly not the NHTSA's fault)! Yes, the Spyders do get hot under the plastic panels due to (my assumption) positioning of the cat converter. The 2013's tend to have more issues because that was the year BRP decided to take the cat out of the muffler and stuff it in the engine compartment. It is not just an RT issue (I know it's hard for a lot of RT owners to except that there is other models made). HOWEVER, here is where ALOT of Spyder riders (mostly RT riders) are at fault also. Posted in many threads are riders talking about shifting at low RPM's and riding at slow speeds (falling behind the other riders in groups) "because they want to enjoy the ride". There is no shame in wanting to enjoy the ride, I think we all do. But, It has been clearly stated by BRP and dealer service departments that it is recommended to shift at 5,000-5,500 RPM in order for the charcoal canister and evap system to work properly. If you are putting around (as many have stated they like to do) then your going to have issues with the system no matter what is done to solve the heat issue. So people can point the finger at BRP (and they certainly have some blame in this), but if your putting around on your Spyder it's time to start pointing the finger at yourself as well....

Couple of wrong points here that bear clarification.

ALL RTs have the cat under the midsection of the frame, not in the muffler or in the engine bay. The cat does add heat to the fuel tank but its only a small part of the problem. Granted, it all adds up.

The speed at which you ride has NOTHING to do with fuel vapors belched from the machine after it is parked. Further, any speed above the 3500rpm clutch lockup speed has been deemed normal operating RPM. The NHTSA will not accept that the bike will belch fuel vapors under ANY normal operating circumstances. That includes sitting in city traffic and low speed operation. This is normal operating condition, NOT a fault of the owners.

If BRP designed a touring bike to ONLY operate above 5500 rpm and above speeds of 50 mph, that is a design defect for the purpose for which it was sold, not improper operation.

Please DO NOT continue to attempt to point fingers at owners for a poorly designed and improperly working bike. BRP is SOLELY responsible for its safe design and emissions certification. Do it right, or don't sell it. That's the law.

[hchays]

Unfortunately you are terribly mis informed on the whole matter. Retrofitting the 998 engine in the new frame because the 1330 was not ready is the main reason for the problems. Not enough space and air for the front exhaust that runs back and under the gas tank by 1 1/2 to 2 inches. Removing the CAT does nothing. I tried that also. Did not work. I was also a test source for BRP's latest campaign to solve this problem. This did not work either.

PS: If you knew how I ride you could hardly "paint" me as "putting" around. This is a real problem that has been more severe on the 2013 because of the above. I see you do not own an RT. You need to walk a mile in these moccasins before making the above remarks or get better informed. No disrespect meant here only seeking the truth.

Jack

First of all I CLEARLY said that the cat is not the only issue! Second I CLEAR (once again) did not say all RT riders putt around! However there are SEVERAL people that have beat ST/RS/GS riders down because they do not putt around. I in no way pointed a finger at anyone specifically, but what I posted is a valid point weather you want to believe it or not. I don't need to ride an RT to know there is an issue. My RS has a heat issue as well, but I know the RT's are worse. I also did not say the cat was the only issue, but it does contribute to the problem.

[hchays]

Couple of wrong points here that bear clarification.

ALL RTs have the cat under the midsection of the frame, not in the muffler or in the engine bay. The cat does add heat to the fuel tank but its only a small part of the problem. Granted, it all adds up.

The speed at which you ride has NOTHING to do with fuel vapors belched from the machine after it is parked. Further, any speed above the 3500rpm clutch lockup speed has been deemed normal operating RPM. The NHTSA will not accept that the bike will belch fuel vapors under ANY normal operating circumstances. That includes sitting in city traffic and low speed operation. This is normal operating condition, NOT a fault of the owners.

If BRP designed a touring bike to ONLY operate above 5500 rpm and above speeds of 50 mph, that is a design defect for the purpose for which it was sold, not improper operation.

Please DO NOT continue to attempt to point fingers at owners for a poorly designed and improperly working bike. BRP is SOLELY responsible for its safe design and emissions certification. Do it right, or don't sell it. That's the law.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned very early in my post that it is not only an RT issue..... I was speaking of the ST/RS portion of the problem when I said they relocated the cat. I think you are the one that's mis-informed if you think the designed shift point is 3,500 rpm. I have spoken to 2 different service managers and someone that is much more informed about the situation than anyone on this site and my numbers have been confirmed. If your riding and shifting at a low RPM it does not allow the evap system to operate properly thus creating issues. I in no way said that the NHTSA says it's okay to have fumes emitting from the bike, but if the rider is not riding it the way it is suppose to be ridden then yes it is partially the riders fault. With your way of thinking if a rider with a manual clutch slips the clutch everytime they shift or at every stop light they are not to be held responsible for a burnt up clutch. I also CLEARLY said that BRP has blame in this issue!!
So do not attack my post if you do not read it. It is BRP's fault for the design and that the Spyders are getting hot, but if a rider does not ride it like it is designed to be ridden then they are contributing to the issue! So stop trying to blame EVERYTHING on someone else and acknowledge that SOME people CONTRIBUTE (not the total blame) the problem.

[bmwlarry]

I have a 2011 and have always had the gas smell very bad after a days ride. On one occasion last year on our ride to Colorado, It was hot and when we stopped for gas - I did hear the sound of boiling gas when I removed the cap. I generally let the bike sit outside if the weather is OK to clear the gas smells. I have never overfilled the bike and hope at some point, BRP will come up with affix.