NHTSA investigation update

[jcthorne]

By my best guess, the fumes and heat problems on the 2013s could be fixed for less than $5k per bike, including labor. Yes, a tidy sum but cheaper than buying the bikes back and they could likely bring the parts cost down by a number of means.

New body panels and air cleaner assembly to move air through the engine bay.
Ceramic coated header pipes.
double wall insulated fuel tank.
Relocate the charcoal canister ala 2014s
Reverse flow cooling fan at low speed or stopped ala 2014s

Even if they did all of this, its not the end of the Spyders financially. but I dare say, IF they did all this, the 2013s would be nearly as good a bike to ride as the 2014s except for the torque and fuel mileage of the ACE.

[thehawk]

Time will tell...
Tick... Tick... Tick...

ve haf vays to make you tock, Denman!!!

thehawk

[cuznjohn]

By my best guess, the fumes and heat problems on the 2013s could be fixed for less than $5k per bike, including labor. Yes, a tidy sum but cheaper than buying the bikes back and they could likely bring the parts cost down by a number of means.

New body panels and air cleaner assembly to move air through the engine bay.
Ceramic coated header pipes.
double wall insulated fuel tank.
Relocate the charcoal canister ala 2014s
Reverse flow cooling fan at low speed or stopped ala 2014s

Even if they did all of this, its not the end of the Spyders financially. but I dare say, IF they did all this, the 2013s would be nearly as good a bike to ride as the 2014s except for the torque and fuel mileage of the ACE.

how many bikes that have the problem are in the states and even at 4k a bike what do you think would be the total cost

[Bob Denman]

ve haf vays to make you tock, Denman!!!

thehawk

[DJFaninTN]

bet dealers are not looking forward to this as well. no telling how long they get strung out to be reimbursed.

if they come up with a dollar figure then I think they should make the offer to the owners and then let them either cash the check and deal with it themselves or take your bike to an authorized dealer and let them deal with it.

[Magdave]

By my best guess, the fumes and heat problems on the 2013s could be fixed for less than $5k per bike, including labor. Yes, a tidy sum but cheaper than buying the bikes back and they could likely bring the parts cost down by a number of means.

New body panels and air cleaner assembly to move air through the engine bay.
Ceramic coated header pipes.
double wall insulated fuel tank.
Relocate the charcoal canister ala 2014s
Reverse flow cooling fan at low speed or stopped ala 2014s

Even if they did all of this, its not the end of the Spyders financially. but I dare say, IF they did all this, the 2013s would be nearly as good a bike to ride as the 2014s except for the torque and fuel mileage of the ACE.

[robmorg]

For now, our 2013s are running great. No thanks to BRP. We enjoy our rides very much but I can tell you, dropping another $25k to trade up to 2014s is not going to happen unless BRP takes that loss. (we have a pair of 2013 RT-Ses)

with that 100%. (Well maybe 98% - the other 2% of me still wants a 2014. ) I have a 2013 RTL and while I did experience boiling fuel and bad gas smells a few times (in the beginning), I've never had the overflowing canister problem. But it was way too hot to enjoy riding in the summer. What I did was read all the heat resolution threads on this forum I could find, and then went about deciding a course of action that would both improve my comfort level and reduce the heat on the gas tank. I'm not quite done yet (bike in the shop getting a wrapped Lamonster cat bypass pipe as I type this), but I have already made a lot of progress on the problem. When I'm finished I'll have spent a little over $2800 of my own money resolving the heat and fuel problem, but I am enjoying the ride MUCH more than before and I now feel safe on it. And I love riding the thing now - any time of the year. That's a heck of a lot less than I would have had to pay to trade up to a new bike - especially since I've also added a bunch of farkles that were NOT heat related. So I'll be enjoying my 2013 RT for a few years to come. (If I could have done all the work myself the cost would have been a lot less, as a lot of the money I spent went to labor costs.)

And who knows... Depending on what the recall fixes are, I may get a little of that money back, since all the work has been documented by my dealer.

[robmorg]

As soon as someone starts paying my way

I'll start listening to how they want me to waste THEIR money. Till then....ah, never mind.

But you've put a lot of effort into resolving the heat problem, Jerbear. I remember your "Dragon is Dead" thread. Hasn't that resulted in a lot less heat for you? Are you still having problems?

[Bob Denman]

I could be wrong...
But didn't he sell his, and go back to a "leaner"?

[DJFaninTN]

with that 100%. (Well maybe 98% - the other 2% of me still wants a 2014. ) I have a 2013 RTL and while I did experience boiling fuel and bad gas smells a few times (in the beginning), I've never had the overflowing canister problem. But it was way too hot to enjoy riding in the summer. What I did was read all the heat resolution threads on this forum I could find, and then went about deciding a course of action that would both improve my comfort level and reduce the heat on the gas tank. I'm not quite done yet (bike in the shop getting a wrapped Lamonster cat bypass pipe as I type this), but I have already made a lot of progress on the problem. When I'm finished I'll have spent almost $4000 resolving the heat and fuel problem, but I am enjoying the ride MUCH more than before and I now feel safe on it. And I love riding the thing now - any time of the year. That's a heck of a lot less than I would have had to pay to trade up to a new bike - especially since I've also added a bunch of farkles that were NOT heat related. So I'll be enjoying my 2013 RT for a few years to come. (If I could have done all the work myself the cost would have been a lot less, as a lot of the money I spent went to labor costs.)

And who knows... Depending on what the recall fixes are, I may get a little of that money back, since all the work has been documented by my dealer.

just curious and I am sure you covered it in another thread, but what was the $4k spent on?

[Jeriatric]

But you've put a lot of effort into resolving the heat problem, Jerbear. I remember your "Dragon is Dead" thread. Hasn't that resulted in a lot less heat for you? Are you still having problems?

"A lot less heat" Yes! A lot less heat felt by the rider. Both on the right foot and in the thigh area. Until ambient temps exceed 100 degress. Then the thighs start to slow broast from under tupperware heat. But, my right foot no longer cooks.

[Jeriatric]

I could be wrong...
But didn't he sell his, and go back to a "leaner"?

No way!

But, I love the FJR too.

Now, if only I had more time to ride...

[Bob Denman]

Thanks, Jer!
I sure don't mind being wrong; THIS time!

[Frank G]

i didn't know the stated was their largest market, i figured canada would be

John, I got thinking about this so I Googled some population numbers. ( I was surprised) In round numbers; Canada - 31 Million, USA 331 Million, China 1.35 Billion, India - 1.2 billion. With these numbers and the limited riding to the north I would think that the Canadian market would be about 5 to 8 % of the American sales at best.

[Pennyrick]

John, I got thinking about this so I Googled some population numbers. ( I was surprised) In round numbers; Canada - 31 Million, USA 331 Million, China 1.35 Billion, India - 1.2 billion. With these numbers and the limited riding to the north I would think that the Canadian market would be about 5 to 8 % of the American sales at best.

I think the total number mentioned in the NHTSA report was 52,000 machines sold through 2013. That could be a total number manufactured but it may be the total number exported to the USA.

If Canada accounts for 5% that would only be 2,600 in sales. Not all of Canada is snowbound for most of the year and the most populous provinces have a pretty long riding season. I would guess the market penetration would be higher in Canada than the US because BRP is better known although some of that publicity is negative due to the Government underwriting some of their development costs. My estimate would be 6 to 7,000 Spyders sold in Canada.

[robmorg]

just curious and I am sure you covered it in another thread, but what was the $4k spent on?

Sorry, I misspoke. Should have looked it up before posting. After I pay the bill for wrapping and installing the cat bypass next week, I figure I will have spent a little over $2800 of my own money in addressing heat related problems. (The other $1200 was for non-related repairs and farkles over the past few months.)

Here is the thread that addresses the heat related stuff I did this past July.

[DJFaninTN]

Sorry, I misspoke. Should have looked it up before posting. After I pay the bill for wrapping and installing the cat bypass next week, I figure I will have spent a little over $2800 of my own money in addressing heat related problems. (The other $1200 was for non-related repairs and farkles over the past few months.)

Here is the thread that addresses the heat related stuff I did this past July.

OK ... that makes a little more sense.

The two things that I did that have helped out the most were (a) JT's Air Breather (removing the airbox) and (b) Baker Air Wings.

[Buggy]

I think the total number mentioned in the NHTSA report was 52,000 machines sold through 2013. That could be a total number manufactured but it may be the total number exported to the USA.

If Canada accounts for 5% that would only be 2,600 in sales. Not all of Canada is snowbound for most of the year and the most populous provinces have a pretty long riding season. I would guess the market penetration would be higher in Canada than the US because BRP is better known although some of that publicity is negative due to the Government underwriting some of their development costs. My estimate would be 6 to 7,000 Spyders sold in Canada.

90% of Canadians live within a band no more than 100 miles from the U.S. border. Population wise we use a factor of 10 as in if at product had a market share of 1000 in Canada it would be 10000 in the US. It is easy to see why items common between the two countries are most often cheaper in the US.

[jcthorne]

OK, the deadline has passed. There were several folk here that had direct contact with reps at the NHTSA, could one of you check with them just to find out IF BRP actually responded or if they filed for an extension to drag this out.

[oldguyinTX]

OK, the deadline has passed. There were several folk here that had direct contact with reps at the NHTSA, could one of you check with them just to find out IF BRP actually responded or if they filed for an extension to drag this out.

I sent an Email to Bob Young, the Vehicle Defects Investigator for NHTSA with those questions. I would expect a reply maybe Monday. I will post his answer on a separate thread.

[Yelhelp]

I and several others have submitted temp readings(with pictures) To both BRP and Bob Young the NHTSA investigator. so they can run but they can't hide. There are plenty of measurements others here have posted too and you know NHTSA has been pouring over the posts. They even include a screen shot of one of the posts here in the PDF. I and others have also posted pictures of the gas dripping from the EVAP hose. This whole mess includes ALL Spyders too not just 2013's. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am guessing Jan or Feb will be the conclusion of the investigation. If you have fuel smells after a ride it is last chance to file a complaint

I have had this issue from the first day but just dealt with it as just the way it is. I now have over 25,000 miles on the bike.

[jcthorne]

I sent an Email to Bob Young, the Vehicle Defects Investigator for NHTSA with those questions. I would expect a reply maybe Monday. I will post his answer on a separate thread.

Great! Thanks

[Dan McNally]

By my best guess, the fumes and heat problems on the 2013s could be fixed for less than $5k per bike, including labor. Yes, a tidy sum but cheaper than buying the bikes back and they could likely bring the parts cost down by a number of means.

New body panels and air cleaner assembly to move air through the engine bay.
Ceramic coated header pipes.
double wall insulated fuel tank.
Relocate the charcoal canister ala 2014s
Reverse flow cooling fan at low speed or stopped ala 2014s

Even if they did all of this, its not the end of the Spyders financially. but I dare say, IF they did all this, the 2013s would be nearly as good a bike to ride as the 2014s except for the torque and fuel mileage of the ACE.

I'd bet they could do it a lot cheaper . . . a CAT delete (and if a CAT is a mandatory requirement, a new muffler, with the CAT at the end of it, rather than under the Tupperware), an air filter like yours, to provide more airflow, and some redesign for the bottom of the radiator outflow, so the hot air went down, rather than straight at one's foot, and added insulation for the gas tank . . . I'd bet they could do it for less that $1,500 per Spyder . . . of course, I've been wrong, before!

[mastertek2000]

the thing that gets me is that they have not been taking off the market they are still pushing them

[cuznjohn]

what i wonder is if they don't come up with a fix, can the the safety board stop them from selling them here in the states