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NHTSA investigation update
Here is a NHTSA PDF dated 10/16 asking BRP to provide EVERTHING ever reported about the heat and fuel smell issues. Sounds like they have an idea what they want to see it is very detailed and specific. It is 14 pages long so be prepared to do a little reading. It seems they are concentrating on the EVAP overflow, excess heat (boiling gas) and MC and asked if pre 2014 owners will get the 2014 body panels (RT's) plus a whole lot more. They want to know what BRP knew about any of this and when they knew it. BRP must reply by Dec 5 and they mean business in closing they said
"BRP's failure to respond promptly and fully to this letter could subject BRP to civil penalties
pursuant to 49 U.S.C. § 30165 or lead to an action for injunctive relief pursuant to 49 U.S.C. §
30163. (Other remedies and sanctions are available as well.) The Vehicle Safety Act, as
amended, 49 U.S.C. § 30165(a), provides for civil penalties of up to $7,000 per day, with a
maximum of $17,350,000 for a related series of violations, for failing or refusing to perform an
act required under 49 U.S.C. § 30166. See 49 CFR 578.6 (as amended by 77 Fed. Reg. 70710
(November 27, 2012)). This includes failing to respond completely to ODI information requests.
If BRP cannot respond to any specific request or subpart(s) thereof, please state the reason why it
is unable to do so. If on the basis of attorney-client, attorney work product, or other privilege,
BRP does not submit one or more requested documents or items of information in response to
this information request, BRP must provide a privilege log identifying each document or item
withheld, and stating the date, subject or title, the name and position of the person(s) from, and
the person(s) to whom it was sent, and the name and position of any other recipient (to include
all carbon copies or blind carbon copies), the nature of that information or material, and the basis
for the claim of privilege and why that privilege applies.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs...4025-60435.pdf
Last edited by Magdave; 10-23-2014 at 08:26 PM.
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Very Active Member
How about that. Can not wait to see what happens.
Jack
All my life I wanted to be somebody, now I realize I should have been more specific.
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Very Active Member
Well one thing about BRP...they don't do anything fast...guessing they're gonna be paying fines...be prepared to pay more for your next Spyder. Personally, I won't be buying another...
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If BRP didn't know, their R&D is severely lacking. If they did know... well, you know! Profit at all cost, I guess! We shall see.
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Here is a taste of the letter concerning the RT's
13. For all MY 2010 through 2015 Spyder RT models (including all trim variants), fully describe
all assessments, analyses, tests, test results, studies, surveys, simulations, investigations,
inquiries and/or evaluations (collectively, "actions") wherein temperature readings were
noted, for any reason, for any of the following areas: fuel tank exterior surface(s); fuel in the
tank; vapor emissions canister exterior surface; brake master cylinder; and/or any exterior
surface of the motorcycle body. Provide a spreadsheet listing each action and, then, for each
"area," the maximum temperature(s) noted.
·14. Fully describe all assessments, analyses, tests, test results, studies, surveys, simulations,
investigations, inquiries and/or evaluations (collectively, "actions") wherein temperature
readings were noted that support BRP' s marketing claim of "improved heat management"
found at http:!/can-am.brp.corn/spyder/shopping-tools/why-choose-can-am-spyder/the-new-
2014-spyder-rt.html for the MY2014 Spyder RT models. Provide all documents
comparing/contrasting the temperature readings BRP relied upon when making that claim.
15. For all MY 2008 through 2015 Spyder "sport" models, fully describe all assessments,
analyses, tests, test results, studies, surveys, simulations, investigations, inquiries and/or
evaluations (collectively, "actions") wherein temperature readings were noted, for any
reason, for any of the following areas: fuel tank exterior surface(s); fuel in the tank; vapor
emissions canister exterior surface; brake master cylinder; and/or any exterior surface of the
motorcycle body. Provide a spreadsheet listing each action and, then, for each "area," the
maximum temperature(s) noted.)
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Sounds to me like they are about to force a recall on BRP. I am surprised that BRP hasn't done so voluntarily considering the number of people who have reported fuel problems and the potential liability.
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Very Active Member
Reading between the lines, its obvious there have been some prior correspondence on the subjects. Of interest is that BRP has reported to NHTSA that other makes and models of motorcycles emit fuel vapors when parked rather than storing them in the canister. NHTSA in essence says, really? who? We need to talk to them as well. Oh, and we want to see those CARB test reports where this vapor belching system supposedly passed emissions testing.... You can bet the EPA and CARB are watching this closely as well.
It will drag out a while. Also what's up with the 2015 RT body panels, is there something new on the 2015 RT that we missed? Or is NHTSA a year off on its request. Personally I would be very happy if BRP was required to refit all 2014 body panels and the associated heat management parts to my 2013....Would go a long way to solve the problem. Still have exhaust routing problems but....
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by Art Mann
Sounds to me like they are about to force a recall on BRP. I am surprised that BRP hasn't done so voluntarily considering the number of people who have reported fuel problems and the potential liability.
I think the recall is a forgone conclusion. What is going to be argued is how much will be required.
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I see NHTSA's site is down again , been pretty busy there lately, so here is a link for anyone that wants to read the PDF
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7P...ew?usp=sharing
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Originally Posted by jcthorne
Reading between the lines, its obvious there have been some prior correspondence on the subjects. Of interest is that BRP has reported to NHTSA that other makes and models of motorcycles emit fuel vapors when parked rather than storing them in the canister. NHTSA in essence says, really? who? We need to talk to them as well. Oh, and we want to see those CARB test reports where this vapor belching system supposedly passed emissions testing.... You can bet the EPA and CARB are watching this closely as well.
It will drag out a while. Also what's up with the 2015 RT body panels, is there something new on the 2015 RT that we missed? Or is NHTSA a year off on its request. Personally I would be very happy if BRP was required to refit all 2014 body panels and the associated heat management parts to my 2013....Would go a long way to solve the problem. Still have exhaust routing problems but....
I read a member here is a test mule for BRP on a 2013 with a reversing fan under 6mph. That may help with the black hole heat at stop but does nothing for the rest of the issues with the EVAP system and boiling gas. I am not sure maybe a 2014 owner can tell us if the 2014 front triangles are engine vents or not. You know the ones above the radiator holes. I am thinking NHTSA simply means the 2014/15 body panels on the RT.
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Interesting
Sounds like the band aid has FINALLY fallen off.
Thanks for the update.
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Months ago
Originally Posted by Magdave
I read a member here is a test mule for BRP on a 2013 with
● a reversing fan ● under 6mph. That may help with the black hole heat at stop but does nothing for the rest of the issues with the EVAP system and boiling gas. I am not sure maybe a 2014 owner can tell us if the 2014 front triangles are engine vents or not. You know the ones above the radiator holes. I am thinking NHTSA simply means the 2014/15 body panels on the RT.
Months ago I communicated with BRP about the possibility of them offering this. At our expense/or not. Need I say....they never responded?
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Very Active Member
Well I as well as many other RT owners will be standing by to hear of the doc's submitted by BRP.
I think this could of gone 2 ways. BRP could of known of the heat issues from customers and never did there own R&D to support or deny the claims. Or know of the issue and wait for the NHTSB to come up with their evaluation hoping for a lesser of the 2 evils. But it might be to late for BRP? Would be curious to see the actual documents provided by BRP. I would be betting that they will not be nearly a bad as myself or others have claimed about the heat issue, boiling gas, or fuel smells.
Guess we'll just wait and see.
2007 M109R LE - To many MODS to list. Its cheaper that way!!!
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Originally Posted by M109Dreamer
Well I as well as many other RT owners will be standing by to hear of the doc's submitted by BRP.
I think this could of gone 2 ways. BRP could of known of the heat issues from customers and never did there own R&D to support or deny the claims. Or know of the issue and wait for the NHTSB to come up with their evaluation hoping for a lesser of the 2 evils. But it might be to late for BRP? Would be curious to see the actual documents provided by BRP. I would be betting that they will not be nearly a bad as myself or others have claimed about the heat issue, boiling gas, or fuel smells.
Guess we'll just wait and see.
I and several others have submitted temp readings(with pictures) To both BRP and Bob Young the NHTSA investigator. so they can run but they can't hide. There are plenty of measurements others here have posted too and you know NHTSA has been pouring over the posts. They even include a screen shot of one of the posts here in the PDF. I and others have also posted pictures of the gas dripping from the EVAP hose. This whole mess includes ALL Spyders too not just 2013's. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am guessing Jan or Feb will be the conclusion of the investigation. If you have fuel smells after a ride it is last chance to file a complaint
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by Magdave
I and several others have submitted temp readings(with pictures) To both BRP and Bob Young the NHTSA investigator. so they can run but they can't hide. There are plenty of measurements others here have posted too and you know NHTSA has been pouring over the posts. They even include a screen shot of one of the posts here in the PDF. I and others have also posted pictures of the gas dripping from the EVAP hose. This whole mess includes ALL Spyders too not just 2013's. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am guessing Jan or Feb will be the conclusion of the investigation. If you have fuel smells after a ride it is last chance to file a complaint[emoji106]
I hope too. We havent had issues with the gas dripping but the heat has literally left burns on the inside of my wifes legs. And the fumes have been there from day one. Like everyone else, we were told "they all are like that". Well a few more months and maybe we will find out what all comes out in this.
Ours is a 11 RTS
2007 M109R LE - To many MODS to list. Its cheaper that way!!!
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Active Member
I still get the fuel smells after a long ride or hot day. Is there still a need for more customer information? Sounds like investigation is underway..
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Wouldn't it suck to be an employee at BRP working on these responses?
Last edited by SpyderAnn01; 10-30-2014 at 03:50 PM.
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Very Active Member
Oh Boy...
Hope this all works out for Owners, BRP and the Gov't.
Something needed to be done.
All the best to those affected or involved.
PK
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Very Active Member
This is great news they have to step up now what really get me is all the dealers from what i read when you ask them if this is a common problem they all say the same thing i never heard of this before yup OK lets hope justice will be served i am about ready to trade my 2013 because of the fuel smell been to the dealer 2 times on more time then i will file a lemon law this surelly will help anyone that wants file a lemon law on their bike
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Very Active Member
Seems like BRP rolled the dice and it's coming up snake eyes. Between the fires and gas fumes/heat, this isn't something that NHSTA could look the other way or sweep under the carpet. By the tone of the response, it appears BRP hasn't been very responsive to them either. Bottom line is, I hope everyone who needs a remedy gets one and that BRP's damage isn't to the point where the spyder would be in jeopardy (i highly doubt that). One would have to hope they will learn a lesson here and listen to all us beta testers.
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When the fan boys go silent
Crickets.....
After having read through the information request. One thought came to mind. This is far from over. It's just getting started. Sad thing is....it DID NOT have to come to this. 'Choices' do have consequences.
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Remember
When I think of all the 'Good Folks' over the years who have been attacked for complaining about everything that is now under investigation. In truth. It makes me sick.
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Bottom line I can recreate the fuel smell issue easily!
1) Have about 1/3 of your gas tank full.
2) Ride in stop and go traffic in 90F or above ambient temps for about 30 minutes.
Every time I have this combination the gas stink even while on the thing is pretty bad and there have been days I almost had to get off the thing as it was making me nauseous.
However, I have been doing what others suggested. Fill up the tank before going home.
YES when I pop the cap off the gas is boiling so much you can hear it just standing next to it.
But filling it up does calm down the issue so I can park in the garage without my wife freaking out but I have to ride it a few miles to let the evap can clear.
Still some gas smell but certainly not as bad as had I not filled it up.
As far as heat, either I am tolerant or not having an issue.
Yes with my NVB pegs the blow hole will burn you so it has to be blocked off to use those.
But on the stock pegs, I only have a little discomfort and can feel the heat but not enough to make me stop riding it.
But, this is good news for us users. I will take any fix that solves the stink and the fumes which is a fire danger in my opinion. I have been grounding myself to the frame before opening the gas cap and other precautions to not ignite the fumes!
Lets all hope for a quick resolution to this
Bob
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