NHTSA investigation update

[Magdave]

Here is a NHTSA PDF dated 10/16 asking BRP to provide EVERTHING ever reported about the heat and fuel smell issues. Sounds like they have an idea what they want to see it is very detailed and specific. It is 14 pages long so be prepared to do a little reading. It seems they are concentrating on the EVAP overflow, excess heat (boiling gas) and MC and asked if pre 2014 owners will get the 2014 body panels (RT's) plus a whole lot more. They want to know what BRP knew about any of this and when they knew it. BRP must reply by Dec 5 and they mean business in closing they said

"BRP's failure to respond promptly and fully to this letter could subject BRP to civil penalties
pursuant to 49 U.S.C. § 30165 or lead to an action for injunctive relief pursuant to 49 U.S.C. §
30163. (Other remedies and sanctions are available as well.) The Vehicle Safety Act, as
amended, 49 U.S.C. § 30165(a), provides for civil penalties of up to $7,000 per day, with a
maximum of $17,350,000 for a related series of violations, for failing or refusing to perform an

act required under 49 U.S.C. § 30166. See 49 CFR 578.6 (as amended by 77 Fed. Reg. 70710



(November 27, 2012)). This includes failing to respond completely to ODI information requests.
If BRP cannot respond to any specific request or subpart(s) thereof, please state the reason why it
is unable to do so. If on the basis of attorney-client, attorney work product, or other privilege,
BRP does not submit one or more requested documents or items of information in response to
this information request, BRP must provide a privilege log identifying each document or item
withheld, and stating the date, subject or title, the name and position of the person(s) from, and
the person(s) to whom it was sent, and the name and position of any other recipient (to include
all carbon copies or blind carbon copies), the nature of that information or material, and the basis
for the claim of privilege and why that privilege applies.



http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs...4025-60435.pdf

[jaherbst]

How about that. Can not wait to see what happens.

Jack

[SNOOPY]

Well one thing about BRP...they don't do anything fast...guessing they're gonna be paying fines...be prepared to pay more for your next Spyder. Personally, I won't be buying another...

[JkRbbt]

If BRP didn't know, their R&D is severely lacking. If they did know... well, you know! Profit at all cost, I guess! We shall see.

[Magdave]

Here is a taste of the letter concerning the RT's

13. For all MY 2010 through 2015 Spyder RT models (including all trim variants), fully describe
all assessments, analyses, tests, test results, studies, surveys, simulations, investigations,
inquiries and/or evaluations (collectively, "actions") wherein temperature readings were
noted, for any reason, for any of the following areas: fuel tank exterior surface(s); fuel in the
tank; vapor emissions canister exterior surface; brake master cylinder; and/or any exterior
surface of the motorcycle body. Provide a spreadsheet listing each action and, then, for each
"area," the maximum temperature(s) noted.
·14. Fully describe all assessments, analyses, tests, test results, studies, surveys, simulations,
investigations, inquiries and/or evaluations (collectively, "actions") wherein temperature
readings were noted that support BRP' s marketing claim of "improved heat management"
found at http:!/can-am.brp.corn/spyder/shopping-tools/why-choose-can-am-spyder/the-new-
2014-spyder-rt.html for the MY2014 Spyder RT models. Provide all documents
comparing/contrasting the temperature readings BRP relied upon when making that claim.
15. For all MY 2008 through 2015 Spyder "sport" models, fully describe all assessments,
analyses, tests, test results, studies, surveys, simulations, investigations, inquiries and/or
evaluations (collectively, "actions") wherein temperature readings were noted, for any
reason, for any of the following areas: fuel tank exterior surface(s); fuel in the tank; vapor
emissions canister exterior surface; brake master cylinder; and/or any exterior surface of the
motorcycle body. Provide a spreadsheet listing each action and, then, for each "area," the
maximum temperature(s) noted.)

[Art Mann]

Sounds to me like they are about to force a recall on BRP. I am surprised that BRP hasn't done so voluntarily considering the number of people who have reported fuel problems and the potential liability.

[jcthorne]

Sounds to me like they are about to force a recall on BRP. I am surprised that BRP hasn't done so voluntarily considering the number of people who have reported fuel problems and the potential liability.

I think the recall is a forgone conclusion. What is going to be argued is how much will be required.

[Magdave]

I see NHTSA's site is down again , been pretty busy there lately, so here is a link for anyone that wants to read the PDF
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7P...ew?usp=sharing

[Jeriatric]

Sounds like the band aid has FINALLY fallen off.

Thanks for the update.

[jcthorne]

Reading between the lines, its obvious there have been some prior correspondence on the subjects. Of interest is that BRP has reported to NHTSA that other makes and models of motorcycles emit fuel vapors when parked rather than storing them in the canister. NHTSA in essence says, really? who? We need to talk to them as well. Oh, and we want to see those CARB test reports where this vapor belching system supposedly passed emissions testing.... You can bet the EPA and CARB are watching this closely as well.

It will drag out a while. Also what's up with the 2015 RT body panels, is there something new on the 2015 RT that we missed? Or is NHTSA a year off on its request. Personally I would be very happy if BRP was required to refit all 2014 body panels and the associated heat management parts to my 2013....Would go a long way to solve the problem. Still have exhaust routing problems but....

[Magdave]

Reading between the lines, its obvious there have been some prior correspondence on the subjects. Of interest is that BRP has reported to NHTSA that other makes and models of motorcycles emit fuel vapors when parked rather than storing them in the canister. NHTSA in essence says, really? who? We need to talk to them as well. Oh, and we want to see those CARB test reports where this vapor belching system supposedly passed emissions testing.... You can bet the EPA and CARB are watching this closely as well.

It will drag out a while. Also what's up with the 2015 RT body panels, is there something new on the 2015 RT that we missed? Or is NHTSA a year off on its request. Personally I would be very happy if BRP was required to refit all 2014 body panels and the associated heat management parts to my 2013....Would go a long way to solve the problem. Still have exhaust routing problems but....

I read a member here is a test mule for BRP on a 2013 with a reversing fan under 6mph. That may help with the black hole heat at stop but does nothing for the rest of the issues with the EVAP system and boiling gas. I am not sure maybe a 2014 owner can tell us if the 2014 front triangles are engine vents or not. You know the ones above the radiator holes. I am thinking NHTSA simply means the 2014/15 body panels on the RT.

[Jeriatric]

I read a member here is a test mule for BRP on a 2013 with
● a reversing fan ● under 6mph. That may help with the black hole heat at stop but does nothing for the rest of the issues with the EVAP system and boiling gas. I am not sure maybe a 2014 owner can tell us if the 2014 front triangles are engine vents or not. You know the ones above the radiator holes. I am thinking NHTSA simply means the 2014/15 body panels on the RT.

Months ago I communicated with BRP about the possibility of them offering this. At our expense/or not. Need I say....they never responded?

[M109Dreamer]

Well I as well as many other RT owners will be standing by to hear of the doc's submitted by BRP.

I think this could of gone 2 ways. BRP could of known of the heat issues from customers and never did there own R&D to support or deny the claims. Or know of the issue and wait for the NHTSB to come up with their evaluation hoping for a lesser of the 2 evils. But it might be to late for BRP? Would be curious to see the actual documents provided by BRP. I would be betting that they will not be nearly a bad as myself or others have claimed about the heat issue, boiling gas, or fuel smells.

Guess we'll just wait and see.

[Magdave]

Well I as well as many other RT owners will be standing by to hear of the doc's submitted by BRP.

I think this could of gone 2 ways. BRP could of known of the heat issues from customers and never did there own R&D to support or deny the claims. Or know of the issue and wait for the NHTSB to come up with their evaluation hoping for a lesser of the 2 evils. But it might be to late for BRP? Would be curious to see the actual documents provided by BRP. I would be betting that they will not be nearly a bad as myself or others have claimed about the heat issue, boiling gas, or fuel smells.

Guess we'll just wait and see.

I and several others have submitted temp readings(with pictures) To both BRP and Bob Young the NHTSA investigator. so they can run but they can't hide. There are plenty of measurements others here have posted too and you know NHTSA has been pouring over the posts. They even include a screen shot of one of the posts here in the PDF. I and others have also posted pictures of the gas dripping from the EVAP hose. This whole mess includes ALL Spyders too not just 2013's. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am guessing Jan or Feb will be the conclusion of the investigation. If you have fuel smells after a ride it is last chance to file a complaint

[M109Dreamer]

I and several others have submitted temp readings(with pictures) To both BRP and Bob Young the NHTSA investigator. so they can run but they can't hide. There are plenty of measurements others here have posted too and you know NHTSA has been pouring over the posts. They even include a screen shot of one of the posts here in the PDF. I and others have also posted pictures of the gas dripping from the EVAP hose. This whole mess includes ALL Spyders too not just 2013's. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am guessing Jan or Feb will be the conclusion of the investigation. If you have fuel smells after a ride it is last chance to file a complaint[emoji106]

I hope too. We havent had issues with the gas dripping but the heat has literally left burns on the inside of my wifes legs. And the fumes have been there from day one. Like everyone else, we were told "they all are like that". Well a few more months and maybe we will find out what all comes out in this.

Ours is a 11 RTS

[Raknid]

I still get the fuel smells after a long ride or hot day. Is there still a need for more customer information? Sounds like investigation is underway..

[SpyderAnn01]

Wouldn't it suck to be an employee at BRP working on these responses?

[jaherbst]

I hope too. We havent had issues with the gas dripping but the heat has literally left burns on the inside of my wifes legs. And the fumes have been there from day one. Like everyone else, we were told "they all are like that". Well a few more months and maybe we will find out what all comes out in this.

Ours is a 11 RTS

Now I think I understand your avatar. It's a mask for the gas fumes. Does it work??

Jack

[Dan_Ashley]

I hope this does not turn out like it did for the Corvair, or like it did for the Geo Tracker. Both were fine cars--for what they were-- and both are off the market now. You can't buy a Citroen in the U.S., and can't get a street legal Polaris (off-road) either.

I enjoy joy my Spyder. I hope it does not become only a memory.

[M109Dreamer]

Now I think I understand your avatar. It's a mask for the gas fumes. Does it work??

Jack

Lol, nope my boy said I look like the Avatar when I have the CPAP machine on.
Shane

[03hdjill]

I and several others have submitted temp readings(with pictures) To both BRP and Bob Young the NHTSA investigator. so they can run but they can't hide. There are plenty of measurements others here have posted too and you know NHTSA has been pouring over the posts. They even include a screen shot of one of the posts here in the PDF. I and others have also posted pictures of the gas dripping from the EVAP hose. This whole mess includes ALL Spyders too not just 2013's. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am guessing Jan or Feb will be the conclusion of the investigation. If you have fuel smells after a ride it is last chance to file a complaint

I thought just about everyone was having the gas smell problem. Are you thinking we all should be filing complaints regarding the smell?

[DrewNJ]

I thought just about everyone was having the gas smell problem. Are you thinking we all should be filing complaints regarding the smell?

Why would you file a complaint if you don't have issues and only based on info your reading on an internet forum??

I've had no issues with my 12'. No issues with a real good friends 11' either. Actually, no complaints with my 12' at all. Its been one of the best, most reliable machines I've ever owned!

[03hdjill]

Why would you file a complaint if you don't have issues and only based on info your reading on an internet forum??

I've had no issues with my 12'. No issues with a real good friends 11' either. Actually, no complaints with my 12' at all. Its been one of the best, most reliable machines I've ever owned!

Drew, That is not what I said. I have always had the gas smell with my ST Limited and my husband has always had it with his 2012 RTS. ( two different models, two different years) From talking with many other people, the smell seemed to be something most people have had. I was just asking if the other person felt that everyone should be filing complaints.

[robmorg]

I thought just about everyone was having the gas smell problem. Are you thinking we all should be filing complaints regarding the smell?

Jill,

That's not so, and this has been one of the most perplexing things about this issue. I have a 2013 RT that has exhibited the boiling gas on one, maybe two occasions in over 5000 miles. (None since wrapping the headers and shielding the fuel tank with reflective heat tape.) I have NEVER experienced canister overflow and leaking fuel. I HAVE experienced a LOT of excess heat coming up around the seat and have taken steps to curtail that problem. So there's no reason for me to file a complaint. Whatever improvements I get from the recall (or reimbursement for work already performed by my dealer) will be gravy for me - even if it is "much appreciated" gravy. I think perhaps that the diversity of owner experiences has been partially responsible for the seeming delay in action from BRP.

[03hdjill]

Jill,

That's not so, and this has been one of the most perplexing things about this issue. I have a 2013 RT that has exhibited the boiling gas on one, maybe two occasions in over 5000 miles. (None since wrapping the headers and shielding the fuel tank with reflective heat tape.) I have NEVER experienced canister overflow and leaking fuel. I HAVE experienced a LOT of excess heat coming up around the seat and have taken steps to curtail that problem. So there's no reason for me to file a complaint. Whatever improvements I get from the recall (or reimbursement for work already performed by my dealer) will be gravy for me - even if it is "much appreciated" gravy. I think perhaps that the diversity of owner experiences has been partially responsible for the seeming delay in action from BRP.

Rob,
My ST Limited did not have the heat around the seat until the recall work was completed. After that, the heat was extreme. I took photos of the readings and gave them to my dealer. I also had the boiling gas. BRP replaced the panels. I noticed right away after that, that the heat was not gone. It was moved from the seat area down to the lower panel near my calf. (and the heat has always been on the left side) I told my dealer, but nothing was ever done. They said that they would talk to BRP, but they could not come up with a remedy. I now just position my leg away from the bike.

Don't get me wrong, I love my bike. I have 13,000 miles on it and ride every chance I get. It is hot,though...and it smells like gas.