What type of gas does everyone use

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

.....Paul probably the most intelligent answer on Octane I've ever encountered ........Bravo.....Very well done ..............Unfortunately I can only get gas with Ethyl in it so I add an appropriate amount of " STARTRON " ..............My main question however was ..................What will happen to the 1330 engine if you don't use 91 Octane and use 87 instead ................Just an educated guess from you will suffice...........................and since you may not have read my post with some important info........My friend and mechanic with 45 yrs experience some of them in the Pro Drag circuit ......Took my RT out ( that had been getting 87 oct. for 5 tank fulls ) and load tested it to see what it would take to set the KNOCK-SENSORS off ........He said " It took a lot to set them off " more than any normal riding would do , even passing as long as you downshifted intelligently when needed..................Personally I have not detected them activating using 87 Octane. If there is any less performance I'm not noticing that either ........If I was racing this thing I would be using 91 octane ..........Mike

[PMK]

.....Paul probably the most intelligent answer on Octane I've ever encountered ........Bravo.....Very well done ..............Unfortunately I can only get gas with Ethyl in it so I add an appropriate amount of " STARTRON " ..............My main question however was ..................What will happen to the 1330 engine if you don't use 91 Octane and use 87 instead ................Just an educated guess from you will suffice...........................and since you may not have read my post with some important info........My friend and mechanic with 45 yrs experience some of them in the Pro Drag circuit ......Took my RT out ( that had been getting 87 oct. for 5 tank fulls ) and load tested it to see what it would take to set the KNOCK-SENSORS off ........He said " It took a lot to set them off " more than any normal riding would do , even passing as long as you downshifted intelligently when needed..................Personally I have not detected them activating using 87 Octane. If there is any less performance I'm not noticing that either ........If I was racing this thing I would be using 91 octane ..........Mike

The honest answer, likely no damage. Based on your friends quote there is two words used, intelligently and downshifting.

The 91 is more likely a safe bet for some owners. Also, consider your friend was not able to validate results for a multitude of, ambient temps, humidity, different fuel brands and these differences under extreme loads or poor engine parameters. This can make a difference.

As for the mileage, in my truck 93 goes further per tank on the same routes. I have logged fill ups / miles from 0 miles five years ago.

In regards to the Spyder, it should follow the same trend. It has been difficult to get good numbers for several months as the ambient temps are really hot or cool at night, fuel density changes. Also, in fairness, the engine is still freeing up as we do not have the miles some people do.

Without knowing the cranking PSI, and compression ratio, the octane of 87 is tough to predict. The other parameter is how much ethanol (oxygenation), and how does the ECM see the ethanol. Keeping it simple, the ethanol is part of the Air / Fuel ratio parameter, tied into Mass Air Sense. The ECM computes lean, adjust fuel flow richer, or longer, cools the cylinders and makes power. There is more but this is a simple stop point.

A 93 octane may have less ethanol or none though advertised as up to xx%. In this case, the engine management makes little or no adjustment and the faster burning 87 can make similar power. Mileage is tough though, alcohols need a lot of fuel to make heat. The heat element would see greater fuel burn from ethanol, unless the power output comes up enough to offset the fuel burned.

Quoted from chevron off the internet

Non oxygenated gasoline (all grades) would have a net heat content of 114,900 Btu/gal. Oxygenating this gasoline with 10 volume percent ethanol or 15% volume percent MTBE would lower it's heat content 3% to 111,400 Btu/gal. Traditionally, premium grade gasoline has had a slightly higher heating value than regular. The difference-less than 1%. The differences likely to be less or non existent between grades of reformulated gasoline. There can be differences in heating values among batches of gasoline from the same refinery or among brands of gasoline from different refiners because of compositional differences. The differences are small and there is no practical way for the consumer to identify the gasoline with a higher heating value. ---CHEVRON

Here is a good link to understand the true nitty gritty. Read page 7. In the end, it is really all about how much heat you can get from the fuel. Density is important, less important on fuel injection, and cold fuel is more dense. Burn rates come into play as does octane but more for torque. Higher octanes have additives to clean and so forth, so this can be less gasoline and lower heat outputs. Supposedly, the detergents now must be in all grades, so this factor may be less important circa 2014.

Read page 7

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...,d.aWw&cad=rja

And more to make your head hurt.

http://www.racegas.com/article/index

Once you bring in Specific Gravity of the fuel, and how lower SG numbers typically indicate hydrocarbon content and power it becomes a method of find what works best and don't change.

I do want to clarify my statement about octanes and burn speed. Burn speed is controlled somewhat by pressure, not so much fuel but octane. Typically a higher compression will see higher octane, resulting in a net engine running slower burn speed.

Years ago I had SG gages, I took a look tonight and can't find them. Guessing I gave them away. I wish now I could see what SG Chevron 87 is compared to 93.

Then again, all this petro chemical stuff gets complicated and long. Think I just want to ride. The engine is stock, runs well, pulls hard and mileage is ok. I do twist the grip so I never see the numbers of drops per mile other do.

Have fun, Mike, at this point I'm at the limits of my basic knowledge of fuel and how it works in engines. I will share, that on race bikes, we had a dyno, dialed in cams, ran the same VP or Sunoco fuel. The fuel was consistent, and allowed us to optimize carb settings and ignition timing timing. To do it proper, requires time and effort. Don't forget money. Like Bob mentioned in the drag racing topic, sometimes cubic dollars. Sad part was, the race bikes had to be a total package for the rider. Sometimes we built killer ridable engines and other times HP kings, problem was, could the rider handle the HP they bought. Going faster with the same rider was easier with serious work on the suspension, fork offsets, and day of race dialing in. Power wise, it was sometimes better to spend the time building a low friction gearbox to get power to the ground. These were sponsored rider motocross and supercross machines.

Interesting stuff, but complicated.

PK

[PMK]

.....Paul probably the most intelligent answer on Octane I've ever encountered ........Bravo.....Very well done ..............Unfortunately I can only get gas with Ethyl in it so I add an appropriate amount of " STARTRON " ..............My main question however was ..................What will happen to the 1330 engine if you don't use 91 Octane and use 87 instead ................Just an educated guess from you will suffice...........................and since you may not have read my post with some important info........My friend and mechanic with 45 yrs experience some of them in the Pro Drag circuit ......Took my RT out ( that had been getting 87 oct. for 5 tank fulls ) and load tested it to see what it would take to set the KNOCK-SENSORS off ........He said " It took a lot to set them off " more than any normal riding would do , even passing as long as you downshifted intelligently when needed..................Personally I have not detected them activating using 87 Octane. If there is any less performance I'm not noticing that either ........If I was racing this thing I would be using 91 octane ..........Mike

Want to add, adding Startron may change the levels of hydrocarbons stuff, and lower the SG, which may be why you are seeing performance you are seeing.

If you want to screw around, I have been informed that xylene will make power. Ending in "ene", indicates it is related to a Benzene molecule and this is another why to increase the thrill,,,

One reason they test fuels or in Kart racing suck all the tanks dry, shake the drum and refill all the tanks. They are also tech item to sniff the oil on a winning Kart. Run a loose bore and soft rings, find a four stroke oil such as Mobil One that can handle premixing stuff like nitro methane in small amounts. It blows by the rings and is burnt making power. Yes this is not legal. Oddly, with Methanol fuel, I was able to build engines that outran the the nitro cheaters. It all came down to hand made tools to dial in the ignition timing to numbers we were told by respected engine builders could not be run. I knew we sorted it when the driver reported shaking the tires off the corners, which it never did before. The engines had more pull through the mid, but less peak rpm by a couple hundred I guess. Single speed so we used faster corner exit speeds to carry straightaway speed pulling more gear in the torque range. The faster corner speed and better pull allowed the ability to make passes coming off the corner.

So it;'s not always just the fuel. BTW, I don't like methanol setups.

PK

[PMK]

Checked Startron MSDS

Greater than 75% Heavy Naptha. Unless the unknown 25% is magic, this is expensive for Naptha. It will work as advertised.

Not sure but I believe Naptha is slow burning so the octane of your fuel may have been increased

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...75775273,d.aWw

A quick wikki check says Naptha is a primary component of high octane gasoline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha

If you have not made a comparison, maybe run a tank or two of non treated fuel and then switch back. I have no idea, of exact numbers, but the lighter Hydrocarbons and increased potential could have you converting 87 to something closer to the mid grade gasolines.

All speculation, so don't make this part of the bet...

PK

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

.............Paul I won't even pretend to think I can understand all that you have told us......But i will read further ............Premium gas in my area ( 91 oct ) averages .50 more than reg 87 oct.......so Yes that's only $ 3.00 per tank or $70 to $80 per season.....Can I afford it ,,sure ................I just have a real problem with spending money ......... " "unnecessarily "..... I have built Three trailer towing hitches for my Spyders , I could have spent extra money for thicker steel like 3/16, or 1/4 inch ....but I didn't ...I used 1/8 inch and just gusseted the corners.......Because I know what weight I can tow , so why overdo it ......................Sorry for the rant so-to-speak ......Thanks again for your input..Mike

[PMK]

.............Paul I won't even pretend to think I can understand all that you have told us......But i will read further ............Premium gas in my area ( 91 oct ) averages .50 more than reg 87 oct.......so Yes that's only $ 3.00 per tank or $70 to $80 per season.....Can I afford it ,,sure ................I just have a real problem with spending money ......... " "unnecessarily "..... I have built Three trailer towing hitches for my Spyders , I could have spent extra money for thicker steel like 3/16, or 1/4 inch ....but I didn't ...I used 1/8 inch and just gusseted the corners.......Because I know what weight I can tow , so why overdo it ......................Sorry for the rant so-to-speak ......Thanks again for your input..Mike

In a nutshell, it gets very complicated, and confusing. I am no expert on petro chemistry. I rather spin a wrench and understand a machine than sort out fuels.

Getting to your rant, having done aircraft structures and composites since 1981, your comments on thinner steel are fine, and you know the expected limits and with quality design, strength over th entire part comes. Heavy steel in the entire design can show weaknesses to other items. Like the fuel it can get complicated.

Regardless I have been very fortunate to meet, talk, and work with some very smart people that made me learn a lot. Awesome experiences but sometimes to much knowledge hurts the brain.

PK

[Dgjason]

My book says: inside North America 87 or higher
Outside North America 92 or higher

[Jedye]

93 octane but I'm going to try some non-ethanol on my next fill up. Getting 35 mpg on my '14 RT-L with mostly Interstate miles.

[Bob Denman]

PK,
If you're impressing MikeGuyver; imagine what you're doing to the rest of us...

[jcthorne]

...............In an earlier much more detailed explanation about using 87 Octane in the 1330 engine I stated .......If you plan to ride with a Fully loaded trailer and carry a passenger I would advise using 91 octane and also not running in ECO mode .......................Because otherwise it will activate the ANTI-KNOCK feature built in to the computer system..........................You welcome .....Michael So does anyone have an opinion about what will happen to the ( 1330 ) engine if you choose not to use ...91 octane

Likely no damage to the engine other than possible carbon build up due to the reduced timing. It WILL reduce performance. The engine has knock sensors so you will never hear ping, heck it could likely run on 85 octane without damage. The reduced timing WILL reduce performance, especially noticeable in low end torque.

I will keep filling mine with premium. Chevron or Shell if I can find it. It runs better and I appreciate the available thrust from the right hand grip.....

[Bob Denman]

That was the biggest thing that I noticed: better pull off the bottom-end with more octane.

[jcthorne]

.....Paul probably the most intelligent answer on Octane I've ever encountered ........Bravo.....Very well done ..............Unfortunately I can only get gas with Ethyl in it so I add an appropriate amount of " STARTRON " ..............My main question however was ..................What will happen to the 1330 engine if you don't use 91 Octane and use 87 instead ................Just an educated guess from you will suffice...........................and since you may not have read my post with some important info........My friend and mechanic with 45 yrs experience some of them in the Pro Drag circuit ......Took my RT out ( that had been getting 87 oct. for 5 tank fulls ) and load tested it to see what it would take to set the KNOCK-SENSORS off ........He said " It took a lot to set them off " more than any normal riding would do , even passing as long as you downshifted intelligently when needed..................Personally I have not detected them activating using 87 Octane. If there is any less performance I'm not noticing that either ........If I was racing this thing I would be using 91 octane ..........Mike

You negated your own test. The bike had already dialed back the timing for the 87 octane gas. Now if you had been running 93 octane for 5 tanks, then filled with 87 and run the test, the change during the first 10 to 15 minutes of operation would have been quite detectable. Don't know how you were monitoring the knock sensors but the shift in the timing tables is accomplished over time. Hit the knock sensor it dials back the table. Dont hit the sensor for a while it starts shifting it back up until it does hit once in a while. Works much like the O2 sensors re calibrating the fuel mix, its a long term trim. It only takes immediate response if the knock sensors go off repeatedly.

The fact remains, the engine has the compression and tuning to take advantage of 93 octane gas. BRP requires 91 as a minimum but it does protect itself from owners doing what they want anyway. Its your bike, use what you will but there IS a difference between the fuels in this case.

[jcthorne]

My book says: inside North America 87 or higher
Outside North America 92 or higher

The owners manual is out of date, that was info for the older bikes. The correct info for your bike is on the label under your seat. BRP has confirmed it takes precedence over what was in the manual.

[Indyron]

Marathon recreation fuel, 90 octane and no ethanol

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

You negated your own test. The bike had already dialed back the timing for the 87 octane gas. Now if you had been running 93 octane for 5 tanks, then filled with 87 and run the test, the change during the first 10 to 15 minutes of operation would have been quite detectable. Don't know how you were monitoring the knock sensors but the shift in the timing tables is accomplished over time. Hit the knock sensor it dials back the table. Dont hit the sensor for a while it starts shifting it back up until it does hit once in a while. Works much like the O2 sensors re calibrating the fuel mix, its a long term trim. It only takes immediate response if the knock sensors go off repeatedly.

The fact remains, the engine has the compression and tuning to take advantage of 93 octane gas. BRP requires 91 as a minimum but it does protect itself from owners doing what they want anyway. Its your bike, use what you will but there IS a difference between the fuels in this case.

.................................................. .........................I think I did the test correctly.....When I purchased the bike in Ill. ,I drove it home approx. 1300 mi. and ONLY used 91 and / or above Octane for that mileage.........I then dropped down to 89 Octane and didn't notice any difference for another 1000 mi.or so .....then I asked my mechanic/ best friend ( Andy ) the " what if question " about the octane thing .......He told me in order to get an accurate assessment on the 87 octane thing .....either flush the system of gas ...or run 4 or 5 tankfuls of 87 thru the system. We didn't want to know what the engine would do on 88 octane ........And as I said earlier if was racing this Spyder I would absolutely be using 91 Octane ......but I'm not ......and I'm not activating the Knock correction features built into the 1330 ace..............and based on what Paul ( PMK ) has said about this and ( Andy ) I'm not worried........We'll check the plugs at 15,000 or so and see what they look like .....maybe earlier if I'm in there for some reason.........And thanks for stepping up and answering the question.................Mike

[Dgjason]

The owners manual is out of date, that was info for the older bikes. The correct info for your bike is on the label under your seat. BRP has confirmed it takes precedence over what was in the manual.

Thanks JC never noticed that. Minimum 91 octane. Seems like BRP cuts corners on some things like updating manual but not on others like price of bike and accessories.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

That was the biggest thing that I noticed: better pull off the bottom-end with more octane.

........Robert , a 4 to 6 point boost in Octane is no replacement for a Timely downshift.........just sayin......Mike

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

....Paul, thanks for the info about the " STARTRON " ( I was typing,so I missed it ) .....Question ???...How do you think their claim " THAT IT NEGATES THE HARMFUL EFFECTS OF ETHYL IN GAS ) ........This the reason that I have been using it, I didn't realize it might also be boosting the Octane rating of the 87 I use .............Mike

[Bob Denman]

"
........Robert , a 4 to 6 point boost in Octane is no replacement for a Timely downshift.........just sayin......Mike "
But I STILL like to ride the "Torque Wave"...

[jcthorne]

.................................................. ......................... ......and I'm not activating the Knock correction features built into the 1330 ace..............and based on what Paul ( PMK ) has said about this and ( Andy ) I'm not worried........

All good with what you wrote except this small part, and it was the point I was trying to make. By testing the knock sensors running on 87 AFTER the ECU had already fully adjusted to the low octane, the knock sensors had already told the ECU to dial the timing back. The occasional hit of the knock sensor keeps it dialed back. They are working and you have and are activating them.

If the loss of performance is OK, I don't think you will actually do any long term damage to this engine. I just don't understand the desire to limit its performance using less than required fuel quality.

[sddinnh]

Almost as entertaining as an oil thread

[rspence8]

I use 89 octane which is what the dealer advised would work well. So far no problems

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

All good with what you wrote except this small part, and it was the point I was trying to make. By testing the knock sensors running on 87 AFTER the ECU had already fully adjusted to the low octane, the knock sensors had already told the ECU to dial the timing back. The occasional hit of the knock sensor keeps it dialed back. They are working and you have and are activating them.

If the loss of performance is OK, I don't think you will actually do any long term damage to this engine. I just don't understand the desire to limit its performance using less than required fuel quality.

....​JC, how can I possibly get an accurate assessment on using 87 Octane if I'm mixing different Octane rating;s ? ? ? ?................and according to Andy He could actually feel just when and under what load He was applying .....for the Anti-knock system to kick in.,.............and if what you are saying is what the computer is doing is correct....................then the " ECU " has permanently re-mapped the engine to use 87 Octane as long as I keep using it consistently...........At least this is what I think........Maybe Paul would address this THEORY ....................Great conversation ..............Mike

[mtdoragary]

Premium grade, no ethanol. Averaging 36+ mpg.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I use 89 octane which is what the dealer advised would work well. So far no problems

................Thanks for joining in.......................But it would be a good idea if WE all knew what Spyder you are talking about ........They are all not the same .....and that makes a BIG difference .....................Mike